How might a sub get her vanilla man to start dominating her?

Hi! My name is Cecily. I guess this question will require a lot of background, so here goes:

I am most certainly in the "submissives" category, but my dream relationship is most definitely not the normal definition of a sub. I do not like pain. I do not like being treated in a way that vanillas would call abusive, and I don't think that I ever will. My dream relationship is quite similar to a "classic" marriage. I want to cook, clean, do laundry, take care of the kids, and work to make my husband's time at home as comfortable and relaxing as possible. In return, I want him to financially support me. I want him to drive the car everywhere (I have narcolepsy, so it is dangerous for me to drive anyway). I want him to consider my feelings when making decisions, but to also BE A MAN and make his own decisions, based on what he thinks is right and not what I want. I want to feel protected, guided, and, most of all, feminine in all aspects. In the bedroom, I want to feel wanted, almost violently so, but I do not want anything humiliating or painful. It is a difficult balance in a relationship, and perhaps one that many people think expects too much for too little. It's definitely sexist - and I don't care. Sexism turns me on.

Anyway. I'm 18, and he's 19. We've been close for over a year and a half but are only in our fourth month of a relationship. Things have been going amazingly well. He is the man I want to marry, and he's already expressed a desire to marry me, many times! There's one major problem, though.

He's completely vanilla. He's shy, he's sweet, he's romantic, and he's submissive because he's terrified of conflict. He doesn't like being submissive. He's actually full of quite a bit of bottled-up anger due to all the submissive, doormat-style behavior he engages in with friends, family, co-workers, etc. I desperately want to bring out the confident, powerful man I know he is, but I just haven't been able to! I've discussed some aspects of my desire with him, but I've left out some of the important stuff. He doesn't seem to understand how vital having my ideal relationship is to me. I've reached an age where my fantasy future's timeline has started to overlap with real life, and in the absence of my dream life, I'm finding myself struggling to plan a more vanilla future for myself. I don't want it, you know?

I'm rambling. Basically, I want to know how to help my boyfriend to overcome his culturally-conditioned wimpiness and take on the role of the man I know he can be. Please, ask questions if it will help you provide better constructive advice, as it is late, I am tired, and I'm quite certain I left something important out.

treat him right and give him about 5 years

16-19 year old men are usually either wimpy and shy or overly masculine (comedically so). We don't generally start to show evidence of 'real' manliness until mid 20s when the hormones settle down a lot more. Give him time, work with him and see what happens. Though I think he will always be a little like this... later on you may appreciate that.

As always, I end up suggesting that you give him something to help him understand. Otherwise you're stuck with a guy who has seen too many disney movies and thinks you want to be treated like a princess.

I think it is most important to let him understand how it makes you feel.

Think for example:
- You tell him you want to be spanked.
- That is all he knows.

His actions are going to be too predictable, unimaginative, and you're going to end up with a Madame Bovary problem. So what can you do?

You need to express how it makes you feel. Perhaps give him a book that revolves around the life that you are looking for. Let him know what it means to you, and why.

It isn't good enough to just explain what you want, you have to elaborate a bit to help him. I know it's scary.. I have a hard time ever bringing up what I'm looking for in a relationship with a vanilla girl myself. (And I'm into whips and chains and the like, so be grateful you have a bit easier time explaining this than some of us) Just a note: you talked about you wanting sexism. I want you to be careful if you mention something like this with him. He may get the wrong idea of what this means and might start making jokes like: "You know what's funny? The 19th amendment." That is going to get annoying after a while, and not really what you're looking for. Explain things in detail. And remember to be patient. I'm hoping for the best with you two!

If putting it to him in bdsm terms sounds too freaky, how about the Surrendered Wives movement? (http://www.surrenderedwife.com/) It looks to me as if that is pretty much the kind of relationship you want, presented in terms that are not only unkinky but totally respectable.

If it also gets you hot, that's between you and him (or should I say, Him?)

You two are both very young. That doesn't mean you don't know what you're doing or where you stand (though alot of people might tell you that). What it does mean is that there are a lot of changes ahead of you. A lot. You'll change, he'll change, your relationship with each other will grow and change, your lives will change, all like crazy.

So your best bet for those changes to be positive things that improve your relationship is to be clear about where you stand. Also, be flexible. You might change your mind about things, he might change his mind about things. But if you both communicate how you're feeling, and you're both flexible and open to doing and trying things for your partner's sake, it may surprise you with the things you get to discover. Maybe he's being submissive because he's young. Maybe he's being submissive because, well, he's submissive. Either way your best bet is to communicate clearly how you feel, listen carefully to how he feels, and then find the right balance between changing yourselves for the better and accepting yourselves for who you are.

You've only been together for four months. So you're still just plain learning about each other. So let him know who you are, clearly, and then listen to who he is, too. That would be step one.

Good luck to you.

leo9: Thanks so much! Your link to the Surrendered Wife website is awesome. I don't think I'm going to buy the book (self-helps books are just SO not my thing), but perhaps showing him the website will help him to understand the way I'm thinking.

VaAugusta: I think he would be a lot more accepting if I announced I was into whips, chains, and gags! As it is, I think he suspects that I'm looking for an "easy out," where I don't have to take on many of the responsibilities he thinks of adults having (financial things especially). I'm uncertain as to how to approach the subject further with him. We've talked about it a little bit, about a month and a half ago, but while he came back to me two days later and said "I understand, and this is something I am willing to do in our relationship," I don't think he really gets it. He's changed his behavior a little, but in kind of... lackluster ways. I dated his close friend for about 10 months, and he seems to be taking cues from the way that friend treated me. Unfortunately, that man did not treat me as I wished to be treated. There's also the problem of us having been such close friends for so long. I don't think he sees a need for romance and mystery, and most of all, impressing me. Should I really just be open and honest with him? It seems as though just blurting out "I want more romantic stuff" not only makes me seem commanding but also needy! I want to figure out a way for him to realize on his own that I want this, and also a way for him to actually want to do it.

Thanks again for everyone's help and kind words!

Hi Cecily,

I'm not trying to be a smartass or anything, so forgive me, but, but have you considered the possibility that you are both really vanilla. Maybe a lot of subs will take issue with me here but I do think that a lot of vanilla relationships have Dom-Sub undertows, which, neverthelss does not place them in the BDSM domain because ultimately there is no real sexual element to those Dom-Sub themes.

You said you are not into pain or humiliation although you evidently would like to be treated to a dose of 'violent desire'...but isnt this just a vanilla sexual desire to 'up the stakes of passion' in a sexual relationship which is still a bit young (4 months only?) and is possibly still in its hesitant cautious stage?

Your 'dream', if expressed by the Surrendered Wife philosophy (I took a quick look on the website) doesnt seem to me to extend beyond a simple 'old-fashioned relationship between the sexes' vanilla relationship. That's not to knock it at all...that's perfectly valid if that's your dream...but I'm not sure you will find the answer to your issues in the BDSM domain. It seems you just want your man to be a bit more confident, 'manly', and taking control of areas which you think are traditionally men's domain. I don't think that amounts to wanting your man to convert from vanilla to BDSM.

As has been said, take your time, express your wishes when, and as, you can, and see how things evolve. At the end of the day, perhaps this longstanding 'schoolboy friend' become 'lover' (sorry..I'm guessing) might simply turn out not to be the guy you're really looking for....that's no problem, you are young enough to have plenty of time on your side.

Please dont take offence...I'm just wondering if you are considering your issue in the right context, and by all means correct me where what I've said does not apply.

Good luck in any case!

Slutcontrol.

With regards to the 'easy out' argument, I would say this is easily countered. It is not an easy path to completely serve someone in this way. You have to be aware at all times of your place and your duty, you can't simply ignore them. This is tough to do all the time.

As for being vanillla.... I agree that it is possible. I suppose we are playing with definitions of 'kink' and 'vanilla' here. This sort of relationship was considered normal barely more than 30 - 40 years ago. The only difference is that, as a modern post feminist woman, you have the choice. You can choose to marry, serve a man completely and do all that just as much as you can choose to not get married, have a career and so on. Some feminists may call you a traitor for this attitude (cos, Slutcontrol, I don't think the problem is going to be the BDSM community who I think will barely care but rather the hardcore feminists who see any relations with a man as a betrayal) but frankly, this is the freedom they fought for and you still have the choice not to do it. Just as a modern BDSM slave is nothing like the 'official definition' because they have the choice to walk away.

I would suggest a good long talk with your husband, possibly involving some form of sharing of fantasies. This will help to identify both your needs in the relationship.

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Originally Posted by fetishdj

Some feminists may call you a traitor for this attitude (cos, Slutcontrol, I don't think the problem is going to be the BDSM community who I think will barely care but rather the hardcore feminists who see any relations with a man as a betrayal) but frankly, this is the freedom they fought for and you still have the choice not to do it.

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If it helps, every woman in my life has been a more or less militant feminist, and my most humble slaves have been the fiercest defenders of their rights in the wider world.

I agree with fetishdj about having a fantasy sharing session, as a way to learn more about each others' needs while having fun.

Slutcontrol,

Actually, kinky means deviant as in "standard deviation" means not under the bell curve... and here in the 21st century (and the latter quarter of the 20th) a "Fifties Lifestyle" is indeed kinky and not vanilla.

and

Cecily,

As fetishdj mentions, your fellow is very young and is going through male teen angst, feeling the urges to be in control of his surroundings and having to subsume those urges in the face of family, friends, and co-workers who have more experience or demand "obedience" (especially true with parents and older co-workers.) Of course he's internally angry. Most of us were at that age. The same is true for many alpha females, dominant or not, but wanting to lead their own lives. Hence the term, rebellious teenagers.

What you want and what you want from him are laudible goals and pursuit worthy, but you are both still young. I didn't "settle down" unti 25 and that was probably too young. Not because of my emotional maturity but because there is so much life to experience and explore. If you're lucky, when you do settle down you'll still get to do all the exploring you want, but there is no rush either way.

In your case, you may well know what you want and that may never change, (but it might.) In his case, you yourself describe that you see his conflicts and quite frankly, nothing you do to make his "home life" with you resolve those issues. Only time and a little more maturity (meaning experienced perspective) is going to help him figure out his place in the world and how to manifest himself to his satisfaction.

You need to be prepared... that one of you, and almost for certain he, will go through great changes as you actually enter adulthood.

The good news is that you have some definite goals. Fear not that you will somehow scare off a potential partner with your desires. There will be an abundance of men, vanilla or not, who will relish a partner such as you describe yourself. So tell them. And no need to couch it in bdsm-like terms.

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My dream relationship is quite similar to a "classic" marriage. I want to cook, clean, do laundry, take care of the kids, and work to make my husband's time at home as comfortable and relaxing as possible. In return, I want him to financially support me. I want him to drive the car everywhere. I want him to consider my feelings when making decisions, but to also be the man and make his own decisions, based on what he thinks is right and not what I want. I want to feel protected, guided, and, most of all, feminine in all aspects. In the bedroom, I want to feel wanted, almost violently so, but I do not want anything humiliating or painful. It is a difficult balance in a relationship, and perhaps one that many people think expects too much for too little. It's definitely sexist - and I don't care. Sexism turns me on.

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Sounds good to me (as a "before we get too serious" statement to your beau, or a new one in some unimaginable future. ;) )

Beg to differ Oz...'kinky' for me contains a sexual element, which seemed to be largely absent from Cecily's description apart from hoping to feel more 'wanted' in the bedroom.

Anyway the labels are not very important ultimately, although I felt that Cecily thought that the labels thing might be the key issue (see title of her post) which is why I raised the point.

What is really key, as always, is the communication between the partners....and Cecily, I wouldnt even consider the labels sexist/sexism in this context...these are usually used to describe attitudes which are male egotistical entailing a nonconsensual sterotyping of the female. Your scenario is a consensual one, and you want your guy to take your wishes into account.....thats a different story. Its fairly liberated actually.

Good luck!

Check out, yes, Surrendered Wife. Also Taken In Hand. Join Fetlife and look at the 1950s household groups. If you look at the profiles of people in those groups, you can see other groups that they belong to that might interest you.

I think the Male Head of Household, 1950s style relationship is what you're pretty much describing.

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Originally Posted by leah06

Check out, yes, Surrendered Wife. Also Taken In Hand. Join Fetlife and look at the 1950s household groups. If you look at the profiles of people in those groups, you can see other groups that they belong to that might interest you.

I think the Male Head of Household, 1950s style relationship is what you're pretty much describing.

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Which has a huge sexual aspect for those involved... hardly unkinky, we'll just have to disagree S.C.

Thanx leah.

look at sites regarding 'Taken in Hand'. this sounds more of what you wish your life to be like.........may help you b/f understand what you want!

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Originally Posted by Ozme52

Which has a huge sexual aspect for those involved... hardly unkinky, we'll just have to disagree S.C.

Thanx leah.

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Hi OZ,

I dont really think theres any disagreement here. You identify a certain life style which you say stimulates a bunch of people sexually...seems fair enough and I'm sure you're right. I'm not sure i got that directly from Cecily's mail...but that may have been what she meant.

I just thought that clouding the issue with a lot of labels, vanilla, BDSM, kinky, 50's (like 40 years before Cecily was born)...she doesnt need that, she just needs to have an honest exchange with her man.

Im probably wrong though... ha ha!

that was exactly what Cecily's message was about though...but only Cecily can say.

He's 19...still a boy to be really honest. I'm not that much older, but the amount I've changed in the last two years still surprises me. At 19, I knew who I was, but I didn't have the confidence to back it up. I knew I was intelligent, that I was interesting, and that I'd make something of myself one day, but I didn't really have the confidence to actually make it a reality.

I learned some stuff the hard way, through heart break, loss, failure, and other events that were horrible to live through, but I got through them. And my achievements helped even more. I have an awesome family that helps me, encourage me to be the best I am.

I'm still learning. It will take him time. One of my best friends took years to become the girl she is now. Once a shy reclusive person, she is roughly my age, running a successful business, bright, talented, and very strong.