hmm.... should a sub really turn down a session because they're "tired"?
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hmm.... should a sub really turn down a session because they're "tired"?
That is a matter of the Dom's discretion, I believe.
As well I agree that it is the doms choice. But in the sense of safe, sane, and consensual play if the sub is physically fatigued to the point of fainting or weakness (or to the level of the subs boundaries) then play should be stopped immediately.
Absolutely agree, but isn't that what safe words are for? :D
It all depends on the relationship dynamic between the individuals involved in my opinion.
Is this "too tired for an online session"?
Real life situations imho trump any such considerations, especially if one has school or needs to work the next day etc.
Is it a real life 24/7 or TPE arrangement?
If not then if one is or is not going to enter into a play session doesn't need a reason really.
Lack of consent is lack of consent in any event and should be respected.
In real life if either party is tired that should be a consideration for safety purposes.
Of course there are degrees of fatigue as well and naturally only the person who is tired can really make that judgment call.
What denuseri is saying more or less with extra stress on the laws view on the lack of consent...
I disagree that it's the dom's choice. If people aren't willing to play then play is not consensual. If a sub says she is too tired then that is what it is. If a dom doesn't think that being tired, or being sore, or sick, or having a headache, or anything else are good reasons to not play then the dom has options ranging from expressing displeasure through ending the relationship to find a more satisfying one. What the dom does not have a right to do is to force himself on an unwilling partner.
(of course there are some relationships in which consent has been negotiated ahead of time and in which both people are explicitly comfortable with the dominant making these kinds of decisions without in-the-moment consent from a sub, but if you haven't explicitly talked about that then you're treading on very dangerous ground).
Yet even in such a relationship where consent has been pre-negotiated, is one not still legally allowed to revoke said consent at any time?
So true. So so trueQuote:
Originally Posted by denuseri
Yep, a person certainly is allowed to revoke consent. I was trying to address the "but what about those 24/7 people over there, or the Goreans over there!" case, as I believe people see that as the dom/owner making all decisions for the couple, and I think it's important to understand that those situations are pre-negotiated and based on choice. You're absolutely right though that even pre-negotiated consent can be withdrawn at any time. I'll stand by the statement that if consent is not granted or is withdrawn that a dom has options ranging from expressing displeasure through ending the relationship, but does not have the option of forcing himself on a sub.
Of course. But as Austerus notes, those in 24/7 relationships have far more complex negotiations that relate to long term D/s. The statement that one is too tired doesn't change the fact, let's say, that the submissive has given the power of that decision over to the dominant. One can't be 24/7 and then say "but only when I'm in the mood."Quote:
Originally Posted by denuseri
You are correct of course, you have the final right to revoke consent, but imo, doing so revokes the entire agreement and ends the 24/7 D/s relationship, perhaps allowing a new negotiation to take place or perhaps ending the D/s relationship all together. One would have to question the value of that particular 24/7 relationship if the dominant couldn't "read" the submissive well enough to know the seriousness of the "too tired" comment that they would force the submissive to revoke. There are all to many levels of tired... and I myself know that though I'm often too tired to go see friends, I'm never sorry that I dragged myself out to do so. So there's clearly tired and too tired, but even then, what does that mean? Too tired to even eat? You're going straight to bed? Or you just want to choose your mode of relaxing?
But if that's what you want, you shouldn't be 24/7.
And really now... who in the world is too tired for hot sex except when they actually want to exert control. (Okay, that may be a bit of hyperbole, but my point is that the submissive doesn't get to make the decision, except to revoke consent... and doing so isn't merely a "time out".)
I concur entirely oh great Wizard. At least in so far as the 24/7 TPE arrangement is a real life one.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ozme52
I would wonder what the sub is "too tired" for? D/s relationships and activities run an almost infinite continuum of activities. Some emotionally straining, others physically demanding, and still others an interesting extreme of both. If a sub is too tired for physically demanding play they may still be open to and possibly respond quite well to mind play or some aspect of humiliation or tasking, if those are existing elements of the relationship. IMHO, in a genuine relationship both parties should strive not only to understand and respect what "too tired" rules out, but also to explore enthusiastically what it leaves open for exploration.
True enough CH, but let me contend that one reason I like my D/s relationship (which isn't, per se, a 24/7 power exchange,) is that when I want to bend her over to fuck her, I do. Tired just doesn't matter. Mood is irrelevant.
Now perhaps this works for me (and them,) because I choose submissives who are genuinely stimulated by being "of service" and being used regardless of their momentary feelings. It stimulates something deep within them that they are loved and cherished and needed. It's why they give up their power to me.
But if you did go to bend your sub over and she safe worded and said "stop, no, I don't want to have sex" I have no doubt that you would stop. I'm sure you would immediately move to renegotiate the relationship or even to end it, but you wouldn't force yourself on an unwilling partner.
No. Of course not. But you're right, it is going to garner a serious discussion if it really is because she is merely "too tired".
I altered a scene, even desisted, when safeworded. But realize when she used it she was as surprised as I was. Nor was it preceded by any claim of tiredness or reluctance. She was overcome by an unrelated emotional conflict and couldn't put herself in the right frame of mind. But THAT is what a safeword is for imo. The unexpected. Not because she wasn't in the mood.
Yes. It's a subtle distinction I'm making, but a relavent distinction.
This is a perfect thread because it is essential and impossible. It touches on a whole bunch of essential elements in D/s (et al.) relationships. At the same time each relationship is different, with different agreements and different assumptions, and so generalizations are tricky. I would say that "I'm tired" is not the basis of a decision, but rather the beginning of a conversation. Maybe "I'm tired" leads to a discussion of how and why. Maybe sub really wants to be pushed, or maybe sub who has never lied to Master is sharing valuable information, so that Master can respond appropriately. What if Master is equally tired for all the reasons that we all understand, and an agreement is forged, early to bed, early to rise, with appropriate punishment in the morning for being cheeky. Ah, now there is a thought. Ever the optimist here.
Exactly.
I.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ozme52
I have a chronic disease which often makes me too tired or too ill for sex. I can well imagine other people who have either a health problem and/or an impossibly busy time, or maybe a bereavement (grief can make your weirdly tired) or the like.
If you are blessed with a good health you may see tiredness as a sort of whim, in which case I can tell you that it is an ironhard fact of life, which you cannot ignore!
As I see it, depending on the situation the dom is supposed to know the sub enough to know what this tiredness is about, and to make a qualified reaction to the situation.
But we're definitely not talking about chronic health issues. We're in the realm of a hard day at work, school, or even play. Everything is situational and this is outside the previously presumed bounds of the original question. Nothing I've said about it applies to health concerns.Quote:
Originally Posted by thir
I've already noted that there's a relevent (spelled correctly this time,) distinction between merely not being in the mood and real concerns. I've also noted the distinction between 24/7 relationships and only-in-the-bedroom relationships.
My point in mentioning chronic illnesses was simply to make clear that whatever, tiredness is always a health issue and nothing to do with 'not being in the mood'. It should always be taken seriously, just as a headache, a stomach ache, or the like.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ozme52
As I also noted, if TPT the dominant has the say in the matter, but only an idiot would force him or herself on a truly tired person. It would be like fucking a person who threw up, or who screamed with pain from the head for every thrust.
And my point is this thread even starts with tired in quotes. That implies tired isn't even the real issue. So...Quote:
Originally Posted by thir
Do we need to discuss health concerns in a thread that asks the question about mood, (and not mood disorders.)
Does every conversation have to delve into every situation or nuance? Or can we stay within the context of the OP.
But since you feel we must discuss this, and you are clearly implying some of us are idiots for ignoring the health aspects of being "tired", I'll leave and go find something else to talk about...Quote:
As I also noted, if TPT the dominant has the say in the matter, but only an idiot would force him or herself on a truly tired person. It would be like fucking a person who threw up, or who screamed with pain from the head for every thrust.
.
So it does! My mistake.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ozme52
sammybitch, what did you mean?? Did you mean 'not in the mood', or something else?
I am sorry if I got it wrong and high-jacked the topic - that was definitly not my intention.Quote:
But since you feel we must discuss this, and you are clearly implying some of us are idiots for ignoring the health aspects of being "tired", I'll leave and go find something else to talk about...
Nor am I implying that anyone is an idiot!
That said, if you think my mails lead the topic in a wrong direction, why not just let them be??
No need to let me spoil the whole thing for you. Please do ignore it and go on.