I would have to lean towards Oz's answer. Personally I think its no more cheating than masturbation. But thats just my opinion.
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I would have to lean towards Oz's answer. Personally I think its no more cheating than masturbation. But thats just my opinion.
I have to respectfully disagree, especially in this situation as it's been laid out. I think Sir_Russell had it right, tongue in cheek aside. It was kept a secret, it involves at least one other person not in the relationship, and the partner not doing the cyber-ing/phoning/photo-exchange feels betrayed. I think (as I've already said... sheesh, I need to get out of this discussion, don't I?) that it demands some serious discussion.Quote:
Originally Posted by Silus
Secrets=bad.
And if it happened to me in the early stages of a relationship and my partner had been unwilling (after more than one request, of course) to discuss my feelings or take my feelings into consideration, I would be on my merry way. I cannot have a close relationship (friend, family, lover, whatever) without above average communication skills. That's one of the most important qualities I look for in anyone. It's essentially a hard limit- I don't know how else to classify that, and my brain is tired.
new1...Quote:
Originally Posted by new1
having been in a situation close to this the best advice i can give is...
Stop asking for a definition of "cheating" here. You are going to get 1,000 answers on basically 2 (maybe 3) sides.
We can't and shouldn't validate any emotions for your or excuses for her. If that is how you feel then that is a valid emotion to you. Just because myself, or Oz, or Joe Blow may not agree with it won't change your feeling on it. And just because we may agree with her won't change your hurt or anger over it.
If it is a relationship worth saving then what you need to do is get her into counseling with you to work out the issues on it. Such as:
"why did she feel the need to do that?"
"Was it sexual based or emotionally based?" (yes, there is a difference)
"how can we prevent this trap in the future?"
"how can we rebuild the trust?"
Use a natural party, like a counselor, to help determine why what happened did happen and how to move forward either together or separate from there. If you decide to try perhaps a good book for each of you to read is Do I Have to Give Up Me to Be Loved by You? by Jordan and Margaret Paul
It doesn't matter what we think... trust me, I could give you "instances" on both sides, for and against. God knows I have played that game enough time. Bottom line though, it is your life and you have to determine your next course of action.
Don't mean to sound harsh but asking here won't help you figure out the next step or move forward.
Hugs! Good Luck... I know it is rough.
Spot on, Annie. :)
Great questions, Annie, and great advice, too.Quote:
Originally Posted by just_annie
Well the great debate has begun.......this is like the onlive vs real life arguement all over again...........some say this some say that ect.......wonders how many of the onlines will say its not cheating? because it is a very real relationship......but its not cheating....but lets not go there
OK here is my 3 cents it maybe not be physically cheating but it is cheationg on atleast an emotiional level...if you are relaying on someone out side of a relationship to get somehting you need.....maybe that is telling you somehting about your relationship is all i cna say
@ new1: I think the operative word is "secretly" here. What I wonder is, if she thought it was ok, why did she do it behind your back in the first place.
And itīs not a definition problem anyway. No matter what it is - if one of the partners is not happy with it, and the other ignores his feelings, it is not a sign of her loving or even respecting you very much, is it?
The point is not: 1000 people on this page say it is cheating, so by telling her that you "prove" it actually is.
The point is, she is hurting your feelings and does not care. So if you want to discuss that with her, it would be the way to go.
And I donīt mean to sound heartless, but if she does not care about your feelings, why would you want to stay with such a person?
She is right on a legal point, meaning if you take it to court her actions will not qualify as cheating; but she hurts you on an emotional level, and that is what counts here, after all.
Kind regards and best wishes
Arria
I am using Arria's post as the example ONLY because it was the more previous post to mine. That having been said...Quote:
Originally Posted by Arria
Having been there it may not be a matter of heartless... after all, we are only getting one side of the story. What lead up to her "cheating?" Were there problems before that she attempted to bring to the surface that he wasn't willing to discuss? Was he meeting her needs both physically AND emotionally? He is condemning her for behavior that he is in some fashion enacting himself (at least from her point of view)?
Some of these posts are instantly condemning someone we don't know based on very little, one sided, information. And even if new1 tells us the FULL story it is still only HIS side of the story. We still will not have a frame of reference as to her thinking, feeling, etc. on the topic.
There is more here then meets the eye, it takes two to ruin a relationship just as it takes two to maintain one. So, I think we all need to back out, stop judging that which we do not know completely, and let new1 work it through with his partner only.
Yes, some of us may have been cheated on or cheated on someone before. But, each relationship is different and the 2 involved are the only qualified ones to determine the next course of action.
I understand why the question was posted, but no good will come from us validating either new1's or the other's behavior.
I think Annie is a very wise person.
I agree with Annie. Of course it always takes two. I did not mention that extra because I thought adult people have enough brains to know that.... well, I might have been wrong there.
The matter remains that he is unhappy and she does not care, whatever there was before, and whoever is to blame for it.
I tried to point out that whatever we say will not make a difference to the whole situation, and whatever we say might not be of use.
Counseling might be the best way, communication between them both is vital, and taking it out by using peopleīs arguments from an internet forum will not work.
Thank you Annie for being the solid voice of reason.
There have been a lot of great posts on cheating: what it is and what it isn't. That being the case, I'm not going to bother throwing in my two cents -- at this point it would likely cause an avalanche of pennies.
I'm chiming in simply to say to the original poster, prehaps approach this topic with your partner without making it an issue of cheating and infidelity. As this thread clearly shows, cheating can mean different things to different people. If you and your partner get caught up in definitions and semantics, she's going to continue to focus on the fact that in her mind she didn't cheat and therefore there isn't a problem. Communicate to her that you understand she doesn't believe she cheated, but you still feel as if your feelings were compromised and that you're hurt.
Rules and definitions are fine, but relationships aren't courts -- getting out of something based on a semantic loophole isn't really winning your case when what you're trying to accomplish is building and maintaining a partnership. It's possible to be "right" and justified and win the argument, but if you cause damage to the person you're supposed to care for in the process, what have you really won? Perhaps this should be the conversation you and your partner are having.
Its cheating if you spend time and energy away from the person you are with. To play with someone online, you should spend that time and energy with the person you are with or what is the point in being with them
oh and for the people that say they are with vanilla partners , everybody can be changed it just takes time
No more fishing or golf (or any solo hobby) for you. Especially considering surveys show most men golf for no other reason.Quote:
Originally Posted by **D**
And NO friends outside of people who are friends of both. No outside interests for either of you... only those things you are both willing to do.Quote:
To play with someone online, you should spend that time and energy with the person you are with or what is the point in being with them
Huh? In that case, it's pretty presumptuous of you to presume it should be the vanilla partner who changes?Quote:
oh and for the people that say they are with vanilla partners , everybody can be changed it just takes time
lol fishing and golf are boring there are better things to waste your time on then hitting a ball with a club and trying to catch a fish with a worms
and yes freinds but cybering is not that now is it
and yes i am presumptuous life is to short
if you cant deal with what you got and you are trying to find somthing better online do it in in real life
No telephone.Quote:
Originally Posted by **D**
No mail.
Just face to face.
It's the 21st century. I'll use whatever forms of communication are available. Your apparent predjudice against modern communications as valid ways to find and interact with people as friends and possibly more is unfortunate.
Well that wasn't the point. The point was your original statement was rather narrowly defined.Quote:
Originally Posted by **D**
You say that like everyone agrees. Obviously not.Quote:
and yes freinds but cybering is not that now is it
So if it's too short, why are you suggesting I should be wasting my time trying to change someone elses lifeview?Quote:
and yes i am presumptuous life is to short
well you are trying lol
i know what you are saying about people going out to play golf and fish because they dont want to be at home with there loved one, but again these people need to get better control of there lives
i have no tecno fear lol i was saying if you are going to get online while your wife sleeps in the bedroom and cyber with a sub because u r not getting it in real life its cheating if thats what you realy want be a man about it tell the wife what you want or leave. its hard to be a dom if you are hiding your life on a computer sacred you will be caught
If I may presume... I don't think Ozme52 was saying that people golf and fish to get away from their loved ones. I think he was saying that when you said it was cheating if you spent time and energy away from your loved one(s), that was a rather broad definition. Work is spending time and energy away from loved ones. When I am online, I am not spending time with my husband. When I'm at school, I'm not spending time with my husband. When I'm with friends, when I'm doing things for me, when I'm doing a lot of things, I spend time away from him. Does that mean I'm cheating? By your definition, yes. But to me, that's how life keeps me healthy. I am not less close to him because of the things I do. I do not love him less for the time I am away, and he doesn't love me less for the time he is away, either. I think we'd be pretty sick of each other if we focused all of our energy on one another all the time, every day, with no interruption at all. (Sure, we'd get creative and it'd take a while, but still...)Quote:
Originally Posted by **D**
That being said, I still respectfully disagree with the stance that cyber/phone sex is not cheating when it's hidden from the rest of the partnership. Masturbation is one thing. Masturbating with another woman? There'd be some white-hot rage from me. It's about moving that fantasy into reality. If he sees strippers, he's not masturbating with them. They're there for money. He's there to look. But once a personal connection is made... that's betrayal. In my relationship, anyway. I liken looking at porn online to watching strippers, and having cyber/phone sex to hiring a hooker, or worse.
i understand people need to spend time away from each other there is nothing wrong with that it is the way we are but some people work a 40 hour week go to classes after school fish on a saturday church on sunday, or golf and then complane because there wife husband does not understand them they then spend the few hours they spend at home online trying to hook up with other people, that is not a heathly life lol
to get this back on subject is cyber cheating ?
ask your self this if you look forward to talking to someone online when you see them log on or phone does your heart beat faster then there is a emotion there it is cheating you are hiding your feelings form a loved one
how would you feel it you found a letter or email to your partner talking about stuff they dont want to do with you, and can i say here if you are cybering and spending time away from your partner what do you think they are doing ?
"No man on his death bed ever said, 'i wish i'd spent more time at the office' "
Good point!Quote:
Originally Posted by Aadenn
I wonder if I'll say "I wish I'd have spent more time on-line?" hmmmm
Now I have a fabulous secretary at my office ...
Oh boy, this sounds just like something my Dad would say about homosexuals.Quote:
Originally Posted by ***D***
Digressing a little here...
I'm in a very happy in a vanilla relationship r/t--he's everything I could ever want but for one thing. I'm also in a very happy in a bdsm relationship v/t. with with a man, Bragi, who is in much the same situation as me. Bragi fills a huge void in my life; a tremendous need that needs to be satisfied. I feel that together these two men make my life complete and wonderful. I truly feel that on some levels my v.t. actually enhances my r.t. relationship and maybe visa versa too. If I had to, I couldn't possibly choose between the two men because each one fills and satisfies an entirely different part of me. Bragi and I are very happy; both of our respective partners is happy although neither is aware of our online "secret", and after a decade I can't see that changing any time soon. I'm not asking, or expecting, everyone here to understand this but to perhaps just be a little more open minded and empathic towards people like me.
Is it cheating? Probably, but what's the alternative? Oh, I know what exactly what all you idealists out there will say, so please don't give me your rhetoric about "changing people" and I'll spare you the sad and unfortunate facts about why it just simply isn't that simple.
So, is it really fair to judge what is right, and what is not, here?
Oh, and DowntownAmber, spot on! Well said!
You too, Oz, you're always worth a read.
And, new1, I hope you're able to sort this out. :)
It seems to me New1, that you're asking the wrong people the wrong question- as annie pretty much said, you have to work it out yourself whether what she did is acceptable to you.
As usual, Alex, you've echoed my thoughts. Thank you for for that. :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Alex Bragi
This is a great topic to get thoughts on something I am sure most have asked them selfs one time or another. I also noticed a few replies get a bit heated.. just a reminder to play nice too.