What is a slave, really?

There have been many threads in the forums in the past dealing with the question of "What is different between a submissive & a slave?" but because there have been so many new members joining since the last thread, and there is some discussion of it in another thread, I thought I would start a new thread where we can all discuss the question.

The easiest way to put the difference is this: All slaves are submissives, not all submissives are slaves.

I am going to talk a little about what I mean when I say "slave"... it's easier in my opinion to describe a slave then it is to describe a submissive... so I'll start there & people can jump in...

Note: Please remember when you post that your opinion is your own & no one else's--they might disagree with you & by posting your opinion, you're allowing others to contradict you & to say what they believe. Keep it civil, keep it informational, keep it good.

"Definitions"
The crux of the problem when discussing the difference between a sub & a slave is that there is not an actual "definition" of either--go to 100 different BDSM sites or clubs & you'll get 100 different definitions. However, there are tendencies that most would group into sub or slave & those tendencies usually distinguish between the two.


Online v. Real Life
There is a strong deliniation between o/l & r/l (or r/t or itf or whatever you wish to call it) when it comes to defining a sub & a slave. In r/l circles, there is a clear division between subs & slaves in most instances. This tends to be because in r/l, the behaviorisms, including day to day mannerisms & responsibilities & activities of the sub/slave, tend to be a very accurate physical manifestation of the beliefs & philosophy of the pair, and the pair has the ability to control the atmosphere & setting 24/7 (in most cases). In o/l however, the lines between sub & slave blur because there is no (or far less) actual physical control & contact between the sub & the Dominant so by nature the definition of sub & slave changes. In an o/l relationship, the vanilla issues are not often incorporated into the D/s aspect of the pair's interactions and thus there are many things that the D does not control.


Slave
A slave is at the far, extreme end of the spectrum & the transition to slave from a sub is gradual, intense & time-consuming. No true slave starts out as a slave--you must learn the basics of servitude, submissiveness & other things before you "become" a slave. In good relationships, the dynamic has changed over time from D/s to O/s (or M/s). It's analogous to becoming an expert at a hobby. You have to start by learning the hobby, becoming astute at it, learning differences in it, learning how to do different types of things w/i the hobby, learning about how different people in different places perceive the hobby, and then, only over time, you become an expert in it.

A slave in r/l is not what most people think.

Most r/l slaves are 24/7 TPE (total power exchange) with their Master/Mistress because by definition, a slave is under the control of their Master/Mistress at all times. Often, slaves will refer to their Master as "Owner". This is not just a choice of terminology, but most slaves find the term more accurate because they are actually owned--they have given away the choices in their lives to their Owner in everything from vanilla aspects to play aspects. They live their day to day lives to serve & please their owner. While they derive much joy out of doing this, slaves do not always have the choice as to what they do.

The collar that a slave wears is usually quite simple. It is often a chain or some other mostly non-descript type of "jewelry." This is because for most slaves, their slavery is something between themselves & their Owner. They have to function just like everyone else in the r/l, they have to interact with vanillas all the time, and so there is little "fetishwear" involved, such as a big black thick leather collar. That's not to say slaves don't have play collars *grins* but their general, daily wear collar is most often non-descript.

Slaves, like everyone else, have jobs/school/etc. Often, slaves will be employed (or in school to be employed) full time. Owners don't want lazy slaves sitting around all day, and on the flip side, slaves have to function in the real world. It is rare (I haven't come across one yet!) who stays home all day everyday "taking care of the house" & doing the other things written about in fantasy stories. Slaves are an integral part of the household, sure, but their Owners often want them to work & further themselves & their careers as well. Does this make slaves who work outside the house less "slave like"? No. If their Owner said "no more work," the slave would stop--it's Ownership, practicality & balance.

This being said, a slave is obviously not at their Owner's feet 24/7. The slave's daily behavior is goverened by rules, etc. If faced with a new situation that the slave doesn't know how to deal with, the slave will often ask "What would my Owner want me to do?", which is different than a sub who would most often ask "What should I do?" The daily lives of slaves are very similar to all others, except that they have daily routines that are planned & supervised by their Owners, and their tasks are usually less pleasurable for them but more pleasing for their Owners... slaves don't have the luxury of saying "eh, don't feel like cleaning today." If Owner says clean, slave cleans... It's hard to explain, and I am sure I have failed miserably at it, but a slave's life doesn't revolve around sex--it revolves around serving their Owner to the best of their ability all the time.

For a slave, the greatest happiness is found when their Owner is happy. If an Owner is pleased, they will often communicate it with a simple smile, pat, stroke, kiss... Unlike how it is portrayed in stories & elsewhere, there is often NOT a lot of "play" with slaves & Owners--there are daily things to be done, a vanilla world to live with. Most 24/7 slaves live in a world of respect, service & obedience, but do not get "hardcore play" all that often. Slaves aren't slaves because of the sexual aspects--they are slaves becuase that is where they find the deepest happiness & fulfillment--it's where they find themselves balanced & content.

Owners
An Owner KNOWS their slave. They know their slave's limits, aspirations, life history, goals, behaviorisms, attitudes... they know everything physical, emotional & mental in nature about their slave. Owners value their slave as a prized possession & are often VERY possessive of their slaves. They will willingly share their slave's non-sexual service with others, but they don't just "lend the slave out". Unlike fantasy world, Owners cherish their slaves, but do not spoil them, persay. Slaves know their place in their Owner's house--it might be different slave to slave or Owner to Owner, but a slave is not necessarily the sole sexual partner for their Owner, nor are they necessarily the Owner's only responsibility. They become, in essence, a part of the Owner's household.

An Owner would never do anything to put their slave in danger-- after all, the slave is a prized possession-- but they also don't necessarily negotiate everything with their slave before doing it--sometimes they just do what they want & the slave must do what is expected. Unlike submissives, who have limits & can have the ultimate veto, slaves generally only care the limits of their Owner. As an Owner knows their slave so well, the Owner knows what is appropriate & possible for the slave. However, say there's a kink/task that the Owner loves that the slave doesn't. The slave will graciously take part in the kink/task out of love & respect for their Owner, regardless of whether or not hte slave likes it--because the slave derives their joy & happiness out of their Owner being happy.

Slave, Owners & the Vanilla World
Unlike all the fantasies, slaves don't usually wander around with leashes dressed in slutty clothes. Slaves function in the vanilla world just like everyone else. Unless you know just what to look for, you most likely wouldn't spot them. When out with their Owner, slaves generally follow a certain set of rules & decorum--you won't often (if ever) see an Owner publically admonish their slave or a slave purposefully lash out in public--the dynamic between the two is so well developed that it's more like watching a dance. Often, the slave won't even be aware of all the "little things" that they do--it's just that they are so engrained in the slave's life that it is what it is. Slaves will always defer to their Owners in public, and there are some common general rules slaves follow when with their Owner--they walk on one side of their Owner a certain distance away, they usually have speech rules, and will generally show a high level of decorum & respect to anyone they come across. Slaves & Owners are human like everyone else--they have to function in society & they do so seamlessly. You will very rarely (if ever!) see a slave or Owner call attention to themselves--that's just not what they do--it's sort of against the "code," if you want to call it that... They tend to be very private people & don't "flaunt" their lifestyle decision.

So why be a slave?
Being a slave isn't for everyone. There's nothing WRONG with being a sub & NOT being a slave--in fact, most subs are, by nature, not good slaves. Slaves aren't superior to subs and not every sub should strive to be a slave. Slavery works for those that it works for. Slaves are another link in the chain, but they aren't the end all & be all of the "submissive universe."

However, for those who are slaves, it works. It is where they find fulfillment and happiness, it's where they finally find "their place" in the world. Many experiment with slavery & then return to being a submissive because they find it is not for them. Slaves are generally very self-starting, determined, creative, focused, devoted people who simply find that slavery is how they wish to live their lives.

Gorean Slaves
Real life gorean slaves are very similar to most 24/7 TPE slaves. The difference is that some of the vocabulary & customs are different between the two. Goreans have different ways of doing certain things (positions is one example) & live more by the philosophy instilled in the Gor books. However, REAL gorean slaves are VERY VERY similar to other slaves--they don't boast about Gor, they don't pretend they are there--they incorporate the gorean philosophy & life into their lives as much as is practical. Gorean slaves generally get a really bad rap in BDSM because of the plethora of o/l "goreans" & some r/l goreans who aren't rooted here on Earth. However, the vast majority of goreans, and gorean slaves in particular, use the Gorean philosophies & adapt them to their lives where possible.

Play Slaves
Play slaves are what the majority of Lifestylers think of when they think of slaves. These "slaves" (and I use quotes lightly...) are usually submissives who enjoy the slave kink--they like acting as a slave when they want, most often during play. However, play slaves don't have a real slave-Owner relationship, usually they have a D/s relationship at best. Slavery is something that they dream about & fantasize about but is not really their reality. They might say they are devoted to their Master/Mistress & are their "slave", that they'd do anything for them; but when push comes to shove, they like the control that they have over parts of their lives.

Ultimate "Choice"
A slave's last choice is to beg for their collar. That's it. After that, their limits are their Owner's. People will say "oh, but slaves choose to serve, they can choose to do what they want." Sure, that's true within the context of any human's ability to decide their own behavior & make choices--slaves are no different. However, unlike submissives, who can set a limit, veto certain types of play or activities, or choose what they want to do, a slave has none of those options. A slave's collar is dependent on their obedience & they have entrusted their lives to their Owner. Their Owner in turn takes the responsibility seriously & will care for the slave. A slave can choose whether or not to be in collar--beyond that is their Owner's choice. And yes, slaves have day to day needs just like everyone else--they have to function--but they live for their Owner, not for their own pleasure persay.


A Good Book Series to Read on Slavery: "The Marketplace" (5 books in the series) by Laura Antoniou. It is the most realistic glimpse into real life slavery.

This post isn't meant to make people pissed off or for folks to say "she's telling me I'm not a slave! I AM A SLAVE, damn it!"... It's more for general education of the "Real world" behind slavery.

Bravo delia..........very well said!!

wonderful thread *scribble notes happily* thank you very much, as a newbie i needed it to be spelt out like this for.

That was very well written and gives very clear general definitions. When you are new it can be very confusing.
I appreciate your delineation between Master and Dom. We have discussed this in chat and the general consesus is that the term 'Master' is reserved for the 'One'. The same is true of 'Owner' I think. I can not see how it is possible to have a true Master in an o/l relationship. Dom/sub but not Master, (just an opinion of course.)
As always Delia, you have gotten down to the nitty gritty and cleared up some grey areas. Information and knowledge is the only responsible way to make decisions that may directly impact your existence.

*furiously taking notes, looks up quick* THANKS DELIA! *scribble scribble*

Quote:

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Originally Posted by delia

There have been many threads in the forums in the past dealing with the question of "What is different between a submissive & a slave?" but because there have been so many new members joining since the last thread, and there is some discussion of it in another thread, I thought I would start a new thread where we can all discuss the question.

The easiest way to put the difference is this: All slaves are submissives, not all submissives are slaves.

I am going to talk a little about what I mean when I say "slave"... it's easier in my opinion to describe a slave then it is to describe a submissive... so I'll start there & people can jump in...

Note: Please remember when you post that your opinion is your own & no one else's--they might disagree with you & by posting your opinion, you're allowing others to contradict you & to say what they believe. Keep it civil, keep it informational, keep it good.

"Definitions"
The crux of the problem when discussing the difference between a sub & a slave is that there is not an actual "definition" of either--go to 100 different BDSM sites or clubs & you'll get 100 different definitions. However, there are tendencies that most would group into sub or slave & those tendencies usually distinguish between the two.


Online v. Real Life
There is a strong deliniation between o/l & r/l (or r/t or itf or whatever you wish to call it) when it comes to defining a sub & a slave. In r/l circles, there is a clear division between subs & slaves in most instances. This tends to be because in r/l, the behaviorisms, including day to day mannerisms & responsibilities & activities of the sub/slave, tend to be a very accurate physical manifestation of the beliefs & philosophy of the pair, and the pair has the ability to control the atmosphere & setting 24/7 (in most cases). In o/l however, the lines between sub & slave blur because there is no (or far less) actual physical control & contact between the sub & the Dominant so by nature the definition of sub & slave changes. In an o/l relationship, the vanilla issues are not often incorporated into the D/s aspect of the pair's interactions and thus there are many things that the D does not control.


Slave
A slave is at the far, extreme end of the spectrum & the transition to slave from a sub is gradual, intense & time-consuming. No true slave starts out as a slave--you must learn the basics of servitude, submissiveness & other things before you "become" a slave. In good relationships, the dynamic has changed over time from D/s to O/s (or M/s). It's analogous to becoming an expert at a hobby. You have to start by learning the hobby, becoming astute at it, learning differences in it, learning how to do different types of things w/i the hobby, learning about how different people in different places perceive the hobby, and then, only over time, you become an expert in it.

A slave in r/l is not what most people think.

Most r/l slaves are 24/7 TPE (total power exchange) with their Master/Mistress because by definition, a slave is under the control of their Master/Mistress at all times. Often, slaves will refer to their Master as "Owner". This is not just a choice of terminology, but most slaves find the term more accurate because they are actually owned--they have given away the choices in their lives to their Owner in everything from vanilla aspects to play aspects. They live their day to day lives to serve & please their owner. While they derive much joy out of doing this, slaves do not always have the choice as to what they do.

The collar that a slave wears is usually quite simple. It is often a chain or some other mostly non-descript type of "jewelry." This is because for most slaves, their slavery is something between themselves & their Owner. They have to function just like everyone else in the r/l, they have to interact with vanillas all the time, and so there is little "fetishwear" involved, such as a big black thick leather collar. That's not to say slaves don't have play collars *grins* but their general, daily wear collar is most often non-descript.

Slaves, like everyone else, have jobs/school/etc. Often, slaves will be employed (or in school to be employed) full time. Owners don't want lazy slaves sitting around all day, and on the flip side, slaves have to function in the real world. It is rare (I haven't come across one yet!) who stays home all day everyday "taking care of the house" & doing the other things written about in fantasy stories. Slaves are an integral part of the household, sure, but their Owners often want them to work & further themselves & their careers as well. Does this make slaves who work outside the house less "slave like"? No. If their Owner said "no more work," the slave would stop--it's Ownership, practicality & balance.

This being said, a slave is obviously not at their Owner's feet 24/7. The slave's daily behavior is goverened by rules, etc. If faced with a new situation that the slave doesn't know how to deal with, the slave will often ask "What would my Owner want me to do?", which is different than a sub who would most often ask "What should I do?" The daily lives of slaves are very similar to all others, except that they have daily routines that are planned & supervised by their Owners, and their tasks are usually less pleasurable for them but more pleasing for their Owners... slaves don't have the luxury of saying "eh, don't feel like cleaning today." If Owner says clean, slave cleans... It's hard to explain, and I am sure I have failed miserably at it, but a slave's life doesn't revolve around sex--it revolves around serving their Owner to the best of their ability all the time.

For a slave, the greatest happiness is found when their Owner is happy. If an Owner is pleased, they will often communicate it with a simple smile, pat, stroke, kiss... Unlike how it is portrayed in stories & elsewhere, there is often NOT a lot of "play" with slaves & Owners--there are daily things to be done, a vanilla world to live with. Most 24/7 slaves live in a world of respect, service & obedience, but do not get "hardcore play" all that often. Slaves aren't slaves because of the sexual aspects--they are slaves becuase that is where they find the deepest happiness & fulfillment--it's where they find themselves balanced & content.

Owners
An Owner KNOWS their slave. They know their slave's limits, aspirations, life history, goals, behaviorisms, attitudes... they know everything physical, emotional & mental in nature about their slave. Owners value their slave as a prized possession & are often VERY possessive of their slaves. They will willingly share their slave's non-sexual service with others, but they don't just "lend the slave out". Unlike fantasy world, Owners cherish their slaves, but do not spoil them, persay. Slaves know their place in their Owner's house--it might be different slave to slave or Owner to Owner, but a slave is not necessarily the sole sexual partner for their Owner, nor are they necessarily the Owner's only responsibility. They become, in essence, a part of the Owner's household.

An Owner would never do anything to put their slave in danger-- after all, the slave is a prized possession-- but they also don't necessarily negotiate everything with their slave before doing it--sometimes they just do what they want & the slave must do what is expected. Unlike submissives, who have limits & can have the ultimate veto, slaves generally only care the limits of their Owner. As an Owner knows their slave so well, the Owner knows what is appropriate & possible for the slave. However, say there's a kink/task that the Owner loves that the slave doesn't. The slave will graciously take part in the kink/task out of love & respect for their Owner, regardless of whether or not hte slave likes it--because the slave derives their joy & happiness out of their Owner being happy.

Slave, Owners & the Vanilla World
Unlike all the fantasies, slaves don't usually wander around with leashes dressed in slutty clothes. Slaves function in the vanilla world just like everyone else. Unless you know just what to look for, you most likely wouldn't spot them. When out with their Owner, slaves generally follow a certain set of rules & decorum--you won't often (if ever) see an Owner publically admonish their slave or a slave purposefully lash out in public--the dynamic between the two is so well developed that it's more like watching a dance. Often, the slave won't even be aware of all the "little things" that they do--it's just that they are so engrained in the slave's life that it is what it is. Slaves will always defer to their Owners in public, and there are some common general rules slaves follow when with their Owner--they walk on one side of their Owner a certain distance away, they usually have speech rules, and will generally show a high level of decorum & respect to anyone they come across. Slaves & Owners are human like everyone else--they have to function in society & they do so seamlessly. You will very rarely (if ever!) see a slave or Owner call attention to themselves--that's just not what they do--it's sort of against the "code," if you want to call it that... They tend to be very private people & don't "flaunt" their lifestyle decision.

So why be a slave?
Being a slave isn't for everyone. There's nothing WRONG with being a sub & NOT being a slave--in fact, most subs are, by nature, not good slaves. Slaves aren't superior to subs and not every sub should strive to be a slave. Slavery works for those that it works for. Slaves are another link in the chain, but they aren't the end all & be all of the "submissive universe."

However, for those who are slaves, it works. It is where they find fulfillment and happiness, it's where they finally find "their place" in the world. Many experiment with slavery & then return to being a submissive because they find it is not for them. Slaves are generally very self-starting, determined, creative, focused, devoted people who simply find that slavery is how they wish to live their lives.

Gorean Slaves
Real life gorean slaves are very similar to most 24/7 TPE slaves. The difference is that some of the vocabulary & customs are different between the two. Goreans have different ways of doing certain things (positions is one example) & live more by the philosophy instilled in the Gor books. However, REAL gorean slaves are VERY VERY similar to other slaves--they don't boast about Gor, they don't pretend they are there--they incorporate the gorean philosophy & life into their lives as much as is practical. Gorean slaves generally get a really bad rap in BDSM because of the plethora of o/l "goreans" & some r/l goreans who aren't rooted here on Earth. However, the vast majority of goreans, and gorean slaves in particular, use the Gorean philosophies & adapt them to their lives where possible.

Play Slaves
Play slaves are what the majority of Lifestylers think of when they think of slaves. These "slaves" (and I use quotes lightly...) are usually submissives who enjoy the slave kink--they like acting as a slave when they want, most often during play. However, play slaves don't have a real slave-Owner relationship, usually they have a D/s relationship at best. Slavery is something that they dream about & fantasize about but is not really their reality. They might say they are devoted to their Master/Mistress & are their "slave", that they'd do anything for them; but when push comes to shove, they like the control that they have over parts of their lives.

Ultimate "Choice"
A slave's last choice is to beg for their collar. That's it. After that, their limits are their Owner's. People will say "oh, but slaves choose to serve, they can choose to do what they want." Sure, that's true within the context of any human's ability to decide their own behavior & make choices--slaves are no different. However, unlike submissives, who can set a limit, veto certain types of play or activities, or choose what they want to do, a slave has none of those options. A slave's collar is dependent on their obedience & they have entrusted their lives to their Owner. Their Owner in turn takes the responsibility seriously & will care for the slave. A slave can choose whether or not to be in collar--beyond that is their Owner's choice. And yes, slaves have day to day needs just like everyone else--they have to function--but they live for their Owner, not for their own pleasure persay.


A Good Book Series to Read on Slavery: "The Marketplace" (5 books in the series) by Laura Antoniou. It is the most realistic glimpse into real life slavery.

This post isn't meant to make people pissed off or for folks to say "she's telling me I'm not a slave! I AM A SLAVE, damn it!"... It's more for general education of the "Real world" behind slavery.

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Exactly! And For once, I have nothing to add <soft smiles>, except > Great Post Delia!

Respectfully~ SidheWolf

Thanks Delia, That was very well written and very comprehensive.

There is something I would like to add that I think is also worth pointing out.

You pointed out that all slaves are submissive but not all submissives are slaves. Very accurate, but I think it’s also important to note that not all slaves are slaves to everyone. As you noted it takes time to develop the M/O/s dynamic but I think that it takes a very special, deep commitment and connection to one another for the slave to be brought out in the sub. Seems like common sense I know, but I think there are many people out there who have a misconception about people fitting neatly into the “sub” category or the “slave” category. I see a slave as being the end of the sub spectrum that you reach with your partner after the building period – only the dynamic created between two people who are perfect or near perfect for one another are able to reach that point.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by delia

Gorean Slaves
Real life gorean slaves are very similar to most 24/7 TPE slaves. The difference is that some of the vocabulary & customs are different between the two. Goreans have different ways of doing certain things (positions is one example) & live more by the philosophy instilled in the Gor books. However, REAL gorean slaves are VERY VERY similar to other slaves--they don't boast about Gor, they don't pretend they are there--they incorporate the gorean philosophy & life into their lives as much as is practical. Gorean slaves generally get a really bad rap in BDSM because of the plethora of o/l "goreans" & some r/l goreans who aren't rooted here on Earth. However, the vast majority of goreans, and gorean slaves in particular, use the Gorean philosophies & adapt them to their lives where possible.

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:clap: BRAVO! And you knew I would respond to this one didn't ya kiddo? LOL!

Tal all,
I have never claimed to be kajira (the term for Gorean slave girls) because Master has no desire to own me and to be honest, I think that I would be a pretty piss poor slave. But Gor is near and dear to our hearts and we do incorporate the Gorean customs and philosophies and use them in our D/s life whenever possible. I did beg his collar in the Gorean manner, in position and using third person. He, thank the Priest Kings, excepted my submission because on Gor, if one begs a Master's collar and the Master refuses, he has to kill the girl. Phew! But I am far from slave and will never claim to be one. I am Master's kajira-missive and he is my Gorean Warrior. If anyone has a problem with that they can kiss my Tarn. :32: LOL!

delia, that was a thought provoking, extremely well written post. Thank you. I hope it clears things up for those that may have had questions about that topic. "Peace" ~blizz~

Thanks for that well thought out description. You put some things in a much clearer light than I'd read before.

YES Well defined.To commit yourself to a lifestyle Trust and love must exist. It must continue within the slaves heart to reamin a slave.Mine has no choice now as he signed all his possesions over to me Both signatures needed for him to withdraw from bank. I need only to sign for my needs.
He /it is my husband/slave. So trust andl love must still exist
Ms Cedwen owner of maidjoanna

Well said! A bit one-sided, in that it only deals with slaves and not other subs, but I don't fault it for that... "slave" is a much more, mm, specific word than "sub", and it would be difficult if not impossible to sum up what it means to be a sub in any meaningful way, since there's so much variation.

delia,

Thank you for such a well-thought-out description/definition. Very clear, very concise, very interesting. I expect you'll make a heck of a lawyer. :)

jeanne

Very well said and informative. Thank you.
My Master has a bit of a different outlook on the Master/slave relationship, but it works for U/us so that is what matters. i suppose that each M/s or D/s realtionship differs as each Master or Dominant has different wants or expectations out of their slave/submissive. Just as W/we are all unique so is O/our way of living.

hi delia *smile*

well i think my answer on another post may have kicked things off so here's what i said before in case anyone mised it *smile*:

"a slave is someone who is owned. and that's pretty black and white, either you belong to yourself or you belong to someone else.

a submissive is someone who belongs to themselves but submits themselves to someOne else's descisions at given times, and given areas of their life. sometimes almost all the time, but ultimately they are their own responsibility to some degree. there are all sorts of shades of grey when it comes to submissives and how far it goes with their Dom/me/Top/Master/Mistress/etc and how they choose to exspress their submission but the key difference is that they still have an underlying ownership of themselves. they may commit to someOne to whatever depth, whatever form of exspression, but at the end of the day they are their own person and ...they need to watch out for themselves and their own interests to whatever degree."

so i think we're almost on the same wave length *smile*. i do have to disagree with the part that becoming a slave is a long drawn out process, though. i think the process is long in deciding to become one (sometimes) and it is certainly a long haul towards becoming/being made a good one. but actually becoming a slave can be accomplished in an instant by simply making the commitment to be wholey Owned by another. before the full commitment is made they arent a slave because they retain their rights and Ownership of themselves. sign on the dotted line and those rights and Ownership are gone.

i think what makes it seem otherwise is a basic confusion in language. the concept of slavery has been around for centuries and until recently the meaning stayed pretty clear.. though maybe with some different customs etc for different cultures. but the word itself has now been hijacked into something thats all muddled up with role play (no offense to role play, it's fine, its just not the same thing. an apple is not an orange even if theyre both tasty) of varying degrees.

unfortunately there are so many associations with the actual word that it's very hard to get to the facts. on one hand it's not the role play fantasy stuff that the word brings up in BDSM minds. and on the other hand it's not the torture and abuse that inevitably comes to mind when historical slavery comes up.

if one can overlook the cultural associations then the regular dictionary sorts the problem just fine. a slave is "One bound in servitude as the property of a person or household. " (*wishing i could find a better version of that today- ive seen better just cant find it now*) . the slave is a slave the moment the Owner takes possesion of her/him. the fact that no money changes hands these days (usually) can murk things up a bit but property is property

lovely put delia
thanx.

very nice post, delia.

delia,
Well said and I mostly agree with you. You have taken my post on bottoms, subs, slave to another level. I do appreciate that since mine was meet with much descent and cries of labeling is wrong.

I hope that I have done a little to help this set of forums to get beyond that and understand that an accurate term is needed to be able to communicate both ideas and ideals.

I do believe that a slave is not trained but one that has a deep need to be owned and serve. It is as I have said before a depth of commitment to their Dominant.

A top is merely playing at the life and is actually in complete control even though on the receiving end of scenes. A sub has a Dom/me that they serve willingly but have set limits so in a sense some control so more commitment then a top but much less then a slave. A slave has such great commitment that her Master/Owner must accept a great responsibility and burden to care for her

Subs are great and wonderful people that I adore and admire but over the last few months I know that a sub is not really what I search for or want, it is a slave.

I know that whoever I accept must have the heart and soul of a slave, then I will help her gain the respect, honor and pride in me and of being mine.

Oh, I also disagree with the lack of kinky sex for a slave, mine will get more then her share of it. I do though understand your point that it isn't the main or even a large part of it.

I don't think I agree with the idea that slaves are necessarily more committed than other subs...

Hello All ~

Reading further and following this thread, I'd just like to add; Everyone is different, has their own opinions, ways, feelings, and beliefs, and every Relationship is different (even with the same person). None of them necessarily right, none of them necessarily wrong, and depends on the PPL involved, Their Agreements and Committments, no one else. It is Wisdom I think for Us all to realize and accept that. Words are never perfect, though most utilize them the best We can....just the best way We as PPL have to try to get OurSelves across to others, and perhaps a bit better then grunting and pointing? <G>.

Each person has their own perception of this Topic I am sure, and as I have seen. We are all different PPL, and I appreciate the diversity of the shared opinions.

I share in the feeling and the Spirit of what Delia has written in the start of this thread, and her words are Home *to me* <soft smiles>. But I also realize that is *Me*, and that I am not Everyone <G>. For things not covered, or perhaps do not apply to this particular thread, Anyone able to post I believe may start a thread of their own?

Respectfully~SidheWolf

delia... very nicely said.. it was nice to see explained so nicely

The problem here is and always will be that there is a continuum,largely without obvious boundaries, between (and in no particular order, well sort of,) Master/Mistress, Dom/me, Top, S/switch, bottom, sub, and slave.

Where each lies in describing a portion of that continuum and where the boundaries between them are is a matter of unending debate. No one will ever be totally happy with another's definitions unless they happen to fall exactly within the same boundaries.

Russell, I was certainly one of the naysayers back then... your definitions left me out. Yet we agree on so many other things.

delia, to say a slave is owned but a sub is not... somehow leaves out a host of subs I've talked to... including my own.

Language is too pliable. "Bird" You know exactly what I mean... certainly a horse is not a bird... nor is a snake... You know it has feathers, two legs and two wings. But birds lay eggs like (most) snakes. But birds are warm blooded like (most?) mammals. And what is a platypus?

I think trying to define and describe roles with single words will never entirely work within the lifestyle. The moment you do... the exceptions will overwhelm you.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Ozme52

delia, to say a slave is owned but a sub is not... somehow leaves out a host of subs I've talked to... including my own.

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To further confuse the issue, Master once said to me " You are my submissve, not my slave. You belong to me, but I don't own you." That might be confusing to some but it made perfect sense to me. :)
Have a great day! "Peace" ~blizz~

Quote:

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Originally Posted by His_blizzard

To further confuse the issue, Master once said to me " You are my submissve, not my slave. You belong to me, but I don't own you." That might be confusing to some but it made perfect sense to me. :)
Have a great day! "Peace" ~blizz~

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i like that. By definition, i am a sub not a slave. i definitely belong to Him but He does not own me. He does call me His slave sometimes for lack of a better word. i guess it would be safe to say i am His sexual slave.

^^^
bump into delia
oppss sorry
giggle

i'm so glad we skip the whole sub/slave thing and just go with "collared property". Involves much less of the preconceived notions.

lol and after reading all these posts I am still unsure where and what I am, slave/sub...
all I know and what is most important to me, I wish to serve, to give over mind, body, spirit, heart, smile as my owner would see fit, that would make him happy. His smile, his content, his peace and peace of mind being most important and fulfilling me...yet at the same time I am a sensual person with needs also and enjoyed being tormented and played with...I need this.

Bottom line might be, what is important to you and your Partner and how you two fit into each other's lives, what makes you both happy?
~hugs~

Honestly, why bother worrying about labels. If you and your Significant Other are pleased with your dynamic, it won't matter if you call each other Pookey and schnikle. If the two of you are not happy and getting your respective needs met, then you can use the 'proper' labels and it won't make you any happier.

Labels are for packages and pigeonholes are for pigeons. Neither should be applied to people.

*stepping off my soapbox now*

Thank you for bumping this delia. I was actually asked if I was a slave or a sub yesterday by a friend of mine, however the best answer I can come up with is pet (somewhere between a slave and sub). Sir and I spoke on it, because of my confusion between the differences, and I think by far this is the best thread to answer that question so anyone searching can have a better idea (if labels matter).

[QUOTE=delia;499880]

"

Quote:

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Slaves, like everyone else, have jobs/school/etc. Often, slaves will be employed (or in school to be employed) full time. Owners don't want lazy slaves sitting around all day, and on the flip side, slaves have to function in the real world. It is rare (I haven't come across one yet!) who stays home all day everyday "taking care of the house" & doing the other things written about in fantasy stories. Slaves are an integral part of the household, sure, but their Owners often want them to work & further themselves & their careers as well. Does this make slaves who work outside the house less "slave like"? No. If their Owner said "no more work," the slave would stop--it's Ownership, practicality & balance.

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[.

So why be a slave?

Quote:

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Being a slave isn't for everyone. There's nothing WRONG with being a sub & NOT being a slave--in fact, most subs are, by nature, not good slaves. Slaves aren't superior to subs and not every sub should strive to be a slave. Slavery works for those that it works for. Slaves are another link in the chain, but they aren't the end all & be all of the "submissive universe."

However, for those who are slaves, it works. It is where they find fulfillment and happiness, it's where they finally find "their place" in the world. Many experiment with slavery & then return to being a submissive because they find it is not for them. Slaves are generally very self-starting, determined, creative, focused, devoted people who simply find that slavery is how they wish to live their lives.
[

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I liked the whole thread but these two things really jumped at me. These are the things in my experience that cause the most controversy on being a slave in general. Some assume that a slave is "better" than a sub. Like you said that is not true it is just something different that some choose to be. I get really perturbed when people assume slave means mindless robot and weak. I am a nurse in a cardiac intensive care unit, I am not meek and quiet. I just choose to live my life a different way. :ty

I used to be a member of a forum where all the submissive people there all insisted that they were slaves and not collared subs. They were all under the impression that being a slave was "better" than being a sub, and because I consider myself to be a sub and not a slave, that I didn't belong on that forum. They basically told me that because I didn't consider myself owned property, that because I didn't greet my Master every day, naked and kneeling, because I wasn't Master's footstool while He watched the evening news, that I wasn't really in the lifestyle. I attempted to get it through their heads that my D/s/BDSM lifestyle was just as valid as theirs. But there are only so many times you can post your own opinions and ideas and be ignored. So I left them behind and found this site.

Just because I consider myself a sub and not a slave does not mean that my own lifestyle with my Master is not valid. It does not mean that I do not belong in BDSM or D/s. Being a slave is not "better" than being a sub. Like Borgs slave has said, they are just different ways to live. And when it comes down to it, they are labels. But it has always been human nature to put labels and names on everything, unfortunately.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Dragon's muse

Honestly, why bother worrying about labels. If you and your Significant Other are pleased with your dynamic, it won't matter if you call each other Pookey and schnikle. If the two of you are not happy and getting your respective needs met, then you can use the 'proper' labels and it won't make you any happier.

Labels are for packages and pigeonholes are for pigeons. Neither should be applied to people.

*stepping off my soapbox now*

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Yep, exactly- In all the years I've been wandering around kinky forums & talking to people, I've noticed that we worry far too much about what's what & who's who.

As sisterhoney pointed out, it can & often is taken to extremes. :confused:

Sure there's nothing wrong with seeing yourself as a slave/sub/someone's property or whatever, but IMO it makes sense to keep in the back of your mind that these are personal definitions. Some will agree & some won't.

Ultimately, all any D/s relationship is, is a consensual agreement between two people. Even that agreement can change from day to day.

What's important IMO, is to concentrate on your own relationship first & foremost- get that right & put the effort in before worrying about who & what you are.

D/s can be pretty darn amazing, but let's not forget it should be fun- not an agonising search to 'fit in' as the straight world can be.

I've had quite a few conversations about this topic recently and I really appreciate the original post and the responses given. Because there are so many of us that are new to the lifestyle and learning it is interesting and challenging to have a glimpse into parts of the lifestyle that we have not, cannot yet, or may not earn the opportunity to experience. I am grateful for the time that you a/All put into the forums.

well my owner and i seem to be in like total agrement with the thread delia,even the gorean part its especially nessesary to field this topic, we get asked all the time the differences between the three sub/slave/kajira etc, and labels as some would call them are sometimes nessesary to explain catagorical differences. (shrugs)

very big thankies for the wisdom of this thread

I found it very informative, especially as I am pretty new to this lifestyle :)

I do have one question though. I don't know if anyone else has asked this so I hope I am not being repetitive, but I still don't know what a Gorean slave really is. Can anyone shed some light on this?

Thats a simple question Hecate, and you will find many complex answers in the Gor and largely Gorean lifestyle thread as well as the Gorean Agora social group here at this site. Basically Kajira is the Gorean word for slave.

Tojo and Dragon's Muse:

I can understand the point that both of you are making, but on the other hand, I seriously wish I had read these definitions on exactly what a Master/slave relationship is before I plunged headlong into posting my personal ad.


I posted an ad asking for a "Master" or "Mistress" and i was not even clear that there was a difference between a "Master/Mistress" and a "Dom/Domme"
Truthfully, I should have asked for a "Dom/Domme" but what's done is done.

My only point here is that knowing the exact definitions does have some usefulness at least sometimes.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Ozme52

Language is too pliable. "Bird" You know exactly what I mean... certainly a horse is not a bird... nor is a snake... You know it has feathers, two legs and two wings. But birds lay eggs like (most) snakes. But birds are warm blooded like (most?) mammals. And what is a platypus?

I think trying to define and describe roles with single words will never entirely work within the lifestyle. The moment you do... the exceptions will overwhelm you.

---

I agree... Language just confuses things. My boy and I just call ourselves what it pleases us, damn the definitions.

Oh... and they've determined what a platypus is. Part bird, part reptile. The article I read called it the missing link everybody's been searching for. (Totally off topic, I know, but I just read the article and it amused me!)

:)

Bumping, on request.

Thank you for the breakdown of this valuable information.

I agree, thanks Delia.

Yet another definition to be muddled: owner. Its the best word I can come up with, because I would consider my him as my pet. I care for him and take responsibility for him, good and bad. I also own him, but not as a slave.