Question about "true" submissivness

Just a question i need a large range of answers for.... Dom/mes: would You have Your subbie/slave change thier point of view and thoughts on politics or religion? slaves/subbies: Would you change your thoughts and views for your Dom/me?

The only reason why i ask is because i was talking with someOne who told me that i could not be "truely" submissive not to change my views on such and told me that i would only be so lucky to find a Master who accepted that.

please give me some point of views... thank You A/all

~juicy

i'll go with what i've read countless times and agree with completely. When somebody starts with 'you're not a true submissive when...' then the argument is not going to be exactly valid. Nonetheless, no, i wouldn't change my political or religious views because i would be told to do so. I would consider it with the proper debate and valid arguments, and if i was persuaded, then yes; but no, if my Dominant demanded that kind of change from me i'm not sure i'd be able to comply just because he said so-- from an internal ethical point of view.
Furthermore, i'd like to think that a Dominant would not demand such a thing of me; after all, as his submissive, i too have values of my own which i cherish and believe in.
I'm pretty sure there's couples [both vanilla and D/s] that clash --at least on political if not on religious views. One can either agree to disagree, ignore the topic completely, take it up playfully and have 'arguments' which both parties know they won't agree on but still have fun challenging one another mentally and so on and so forth, and if in the end it's too important for both to let go, then it's up to the couple what to do.
uhm, sorry if i got off topic, but yeh, you get what i mean.

Thank you bip0lar, i personally agree. Thank You so much for Your thoughts! :)

Wow! I think that a Dom even asking something like that, let alone commanding it is unthinkable! True submission is not the act of "giving up" who you are. It is "giving in" and submitting to the will of your Master.

A good Master wants a sub who has heart, passion and fire. That makes their control of you all the sweeter as they know that you choose to obey. That their control of you is not some mindless thing... a reflex. It is an act of your will, submitting to theirs.

The fact that you may hold ideals and beliefs that are unique and even contrary to your Master's, should be a thrill to him - not a threat. He controls you, owns you, but you are still you.

As a sub, I could not respect or trust a Master that would want me to totally "check out." I want a Master that sees my act of obedience and understand that I could choose otherwise...but submit to his power instead.

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Originally Posted by bip0lar

i'll go with what i've read countless times and agree with completely. When somebody starts with 'you're not a true submissive when...' then the argument is not going to be exactly valid. Nonetheless, no, i wouldn't change my political or religious views because i would be told to do so. I would consider it with the proper debate and valid arguments, and if i was persuaded, then yes; but no, if my Dominant demanded that kind of change from me i'm not sure i'd be able to comply just because he said so-- from an internal ethical point of view.
Furthermore, i'd like to think that a Dominant would not demand such a thing of me; after all, as his submissive, i too have values of my own which i cherish and believe in.
I'm pretty sure there's couples [both vanilla and D/s] that clash --at least on political if not on religious views. One can either agree to disagree, ignore the topic completely, take it up playfully and have 'arguments' which both parties know they won't agree on but still have fun challenging one another mentally and so on and so forth, and if in the end it's too important for both to let go, then it's up to the couple what to do.
uhm, sorry if i got off topic, but yeh, you get what i mean.

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... yeah, well written... you hit the nail right on the head!

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Originally Posted by sadiej{KW}

As a sub, I could not respect or trust a Master that would want me to totally "check out." I want a Master that sees my act of obedience and understand that I could choose otherwise...but submit to his power instead.

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well said!!

i totally agree with what both of the lovely ladies said above. for someone to say you arent a "true" submissive just because your beliefs are different from his, makes little sense and he needs to reread what a being a dominant is all about and why having a submissive who's strong, firey, and true to herself is all about. rme@@...

wannabees!

nope i wouldnt change things i beleve in for anybody unless they cud convince me through logical disscussion that they are right and im wrong

nope i wouldn't change my believes or opinons about such matters either .. and i agree with all that phrase "your not a true sub when" if it ha anything to do with things like this...

JUst my opinion

I believe the sub/dom relationship has a lot of other aspects that those that are physical, and the intellectual ones are just as important. Personally, having a dom who expected me to become a mindless zombie would be awful. I believe that subs/doms shape each other, like in all relationships, and so inevitably take on qualities or beliefs that they share with each other. However, I don't believe this is a one way exchange. Experiences shape people, and therefore I doubt a dom could remain stationary or a sub should be forced to lie. Submission of motivation is submission on a level that destroys personality and therefore humanity. I believe that BDSM is as beautiful a way of displaying love as sexual acts or even poetry - therefore I can not see it being a good thing to taint said acts in any way, least of all by ruining the people who partake.

I only have one question....

Is he looking for a sub or a doormat?

nope i wouldn't change my believes or opinons about such matters either .. and i agree with all that phrase "your not a true sub when" if it ha anything to do with things like this...

JUst my opinion

Speaking as a Dom, I would never ask that of my sub. I feel it shows a lack of respect for them as well as myself. I am looking for a submissive, not a mindless body that I could program to think and act as I want.

Besides what fun is there if your sub did everything you asked?

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Originally Posted by Un-Touched

Speaking as a Dom, I would never ask that of my sub. I feel it shows a lack of respect for them as well as myself. I am looking for a submissive, not a mindless body that I could program to think and act as I want.

Besides what fun is there if your sub did everything you asked?

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As a Dom, I agree completely. It just so happens that My rl sub and I do agree on political points of view, but if we didn't I would not demand that she took on my point of view, I would do my best to "convert" her to my point of view though. True Dominants want subs/slaves with their own minds, perversions, quirks, and personalities. If they don't have that, how else can we as Dominants grow.

I'm definately going to have to agree with the rest here and since Ragoczy isn't home to speak for himself I'll go ahead and chip in that he agrees, too.

There, let whoever told you that a "real" sub can't have their own opinions chew on this "real" sub deciding what her Dominant's opinion is!!

Mwuhahahahaa!!

Seriously, though, a sub is a glorious treasure and part of that sub is his or her mind. If a dominant weren't willing to accept and cherish my mind as an integral part of my package then that's not a dominant that is worth my time.

Now, if that was a "sub" that was telling you that, I'd be happy to introduce her to my brother. He's not a dominant (that I know of) but he sure does have a thing for doormats!

-kitten

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Originally Posted by KittenSnicker

I'm definately going to have to agree with the rest here and since Ragoczy isn't home to speak for himself I'll go ahead and chip in that he agrees, too.

There, let whoever told you that a "real" sub can't have their own opinions chew on this "real" sub deciding what her Dominant's opinion is!!

Mwuhahahahaa!!

Seriously, though, a sub is a glorious treasure and part of that sub is his or her mind. If a dominant weren't willing to accept and cherish my mind as an integral part of my package then that's not a dominant that is worth my time.

Now, if that was a "sub" that was telling you that, I'd be happy to introduce her to my brother. He's not a dominant (that I know of) but he sure does have a thing for doormats!

-kitten

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My kitten is absolutely correct on what my opinion is.

I do have to admit that this is the most bizarre "you're not a real submissive because..." that I've ever heard.

How, exactly, is one supposed to just arbitrarily change an opinion/belief/viewpoint? I mean, it's possible to give it lip-service, but inside wouldn't you be screaming "Wrong!"? Which wouldn't really be changing the view, so, by this "dominant's" definition, no one can be a "real" submissive.

To love one's pet is to appreciate and accept them for who they are, religious/political beliefs alike. I would never wish to have a mindless toy. I look for a partner first and foremost. For them to be my pet is a privilege I do not take lightly, they are giving me a gift and I see it as being rude to them to want to change them simply because they have given me such a wonderful gift out of their own free will<3

Just my thoughts on the topic xx

-Miss Rora

Ditto.....lol, Juicey i think you were not even talking to a dominant so much as a jerk lol

To choose a sub (to me) is to choose a human being whom you love, adore and respect and to be pleased by the fact that this fine and worthy person is applying the qualities you cherish (and were attracted to in the first place) toward serving you.


If a "Dom" really feels the need to modify the core of his sub's personality, all that tells me is that he never bothered to select someone he appreciated to begin with, and what does that say about how he feels? Not just about his sub, but about himself? *psh* Not my kinda' Dom, sorry...

To choose a sub (to me) is to choose a human being whom you love, adore and respect and to be pleased by the fact that this fine and worthy person is applying the qualities you cherish (and were attracted to in the first place) toward serving you.


If a "Dom" really feels the need to modify the core of his sub's personality, all that tells me is that he never bothered to select someone he appreciated to begin with, and what does that say about how he feels? Not just about his sub, but about himself? *psh* Not my kinda' Dom, sorry...

On the other hand, if a "true" submissive has to change her political views ... there is an election coming up ...

Maybe I need to get busy ... for the good of the country.

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Originally Posted by juicysub

Just a question i need a large range of answers for.... Dom/mes: would You have Your subbie/slave change thier point of view and thoughts on politics or religion? slaves/subbies: Would you change your thoughts and views for your Dom/me?

The only reason why i ask is because i was talking with someOne who told me that i could not be "truely" submissive not to change my views on such and told me that i would only be so lucky to find a Master who accepted that.

please give me some point of views... thank You A/all

~juicy

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I'll answer even before reading the rest of the posts....


LMAO.

Be true to yourself and you're a "true" sub.
Any "real" dom will appreciate that in you.

unless he/she is looking for a mindless sub no reason not to allow sub to form opionions, serivng the master/mistress is more abour respect and wanting to please no change who you really are....

Yep. I'm glad to see everyone before me got it right. :rolleyes:

Oh my! thank Y/you A/all for replying!!!!! Personally i do agree with A/all of You... i just needed to kinda know if i was in the wrong here, and i think i was just talking to a jerk, who didnt have a clue on what a true Dom is *giggles* but i just wanted other's points of views! make this a note i wont change those "quirky" things about myself, cuz then i wouldnt be simply me.

Again, thank Y/you to A/all who replied!!!

*hugs and kisses*
~juicy

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Originally Posted by juicysub

Dom/mes: would You have Your subbie/slave change thier point of view and thoughts on politics or religion? slaves/subbies: Would you change your thoughts and views for your Dom/me?
~juicy

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If a guy asked me that I would laugh so hard at it his face...:4:...and then proceed to eat his ego for breakfast...

Seriously, in my book that would earn him a label of a chauvinistic, domineering jerk...and would completely cool me off...

I am fine with him having opposing views from mine...i even wouldn't mind him spanking me in jest, lol...but I love having intelligent debates...- a person who is dumb doesn't do anything for me (and such a request would get him labeled dumb)-...I would absolutely not stand for someone showing a lack of respect and tolerance for my, or anyone else's, views. It kind of goes into the category...don't date a guy who is rude to waiters.

Then again I only say I am submissive...i never claim to be good at it, :D

juicy, I wouldn't even change which football team I support! :eek: In Australia football falls somewhere above politics and close to religion...:rolleyes:

Seriously though - so many people have said it so much better than I could. *Claps*

Dear Juicysub,
this guy's (or was it a woman? I guess no ;) )statement first of all revealed something about him; namely that he doesn't appreciate you as a person.

Well, in my view the crucial point in a relationship is what both partners are ready to give and asking someone to change in whatever way is such an ugly approach.

Don't pay any attention to this guy's statements: I am sure you will soon be with the person who will just adore your body, your soul and your mind with all your views, hopes and dreams. Don't prevent yourself from finding him soo by spending time with someone who is just not meant to be with you.!


Dear Sivlie,
does your agreement on bopolar's statement, that she would change her view if she was pursuaded in a debate by good arguments, implicitly mean that you have changed your yesterday's opinion for which you have fought so fervently?
;) I am just teasing: I adore your view so much, as it is shaped by beautiful intentions! I adore you, please catch my virtual kisses.

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Originally Posted by juicysub

The only reason why i ask is because i was talking with someOne who told me that i could not be "truely" submissive not to change my views on such and told me that i would only be so lucky to find a Master who accepted that.

please give me some point of views... thank You A/all

~juicy

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*dies laughing* A true submissive has the power to negotiate how much or how little of her/his life is controlled. It's not "blanket submission" unless you're a slave.

However, to be truely submissive, one must be inclined or ready to submit, unresistingly or humbly obedient as per dictionary.com. He would only be so lucky to inspire someone to that.

I think the "true submissive" BS can be seriously damaging to a person. I had a MAJOR epiphany yesterday, in the slap you in the face, holy crap, sense.

I'm deeply submissive. I honestly had no idea.

It's because I'd previously heard so much about what made one a "true submissive" that I figured it was best just to stay out of that chinese finger trap altogether. So I just said (even as recent as yesterday) "I'm not really that submissive, what I am is owned."

While I think that feelings toward one's ownership can deepen and expand, I don't think there are "levels" to being owned. Either you belong to another person or you don't. So knowing that I did was much more comforting and much less of a potential minefield than having to worry whether or not I was a "real and really real true submissive."

What I'm not, is indiscriminately submissive. I'm not a people pleaser in general. I'm submissive to ONE person. And even within that relationship sometimes I do resist. I did not get a lobotomy when I accepted my collar. I will not agree with everything he says, and I will point that out. If I get my ass whipped for how I express myself, I am willing to accept those conditions, but I will not behave like a mindless automaton just so that someone else can "approve" of the "validity" of my ownership/submission.

As years pass and our relationship deepens, my trust in his ownership of me will likewise deepen and resistance will be less and less. But it is a progression. And though we've been together 8 years in a kink/ownership type relationship, we have a very complicated history which has made our journey even to where we are at this time, a very slow one.

Hey Flaming_Redhead, I don't think that being a slave means "blanket submission." Slaves don't always obey, they just understand they will be punished if they don't.

No, I would not change my religious or politcial views just to suit my Master. O/our political views are basically the same and He and I have a lot of really good conversations when it comes to politics. As for religion, I am a Pagan while Master is agnostic and He fully supports my religion, as long as I don't try to "convert" Him, which is something no Pagan would do anyway. Master knows that in my first marriage my ex wouldn't allow me the freedom to express my religion. He was an antheist who thought that any kind of religious expression was wrong. So I couldn't have altar up or display a pentagram or have my books out in the open, etc. Master is the total opposite.

I think to completely change something so important as your religion doesn't mean that you are a "true submissive." I think that it means you're a doormat without a mind or a will of your own.

juicysub: That is complete bullshit. Your opinions and beliefs are what make you a real person. A guy who cannot cope with a real person is not a real Dom. Period.

My opinion - and hubby´s. A doormat would bore the hell out of him. But then again, he is special...

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Originally Posted by Arria

My opinion - and hubby´s. A doormat would bore the hell out of him. But then again, he is special...

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Obviously you haven't seen the new doormats that can recite Shakespeare and Plato....

"Tomorrow and tomorrow and tomorrow... You're welcome to come in tomorrow!"

:rolleyes:

Unnecessary to say much more, I agree with everyone else that you should never change your personal views on such topics because some "Dom" says so.

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Originally Posted by juicysub

Oh my! thank Y/you A/all for replying!!!!! Personally i do agree with A/all of You... i just needed to kinda know if i was in the wrong here, and i think i was just talking to a jerk, who didnt have a clue on what a true Dom is *giggles* but i just wanted other's points of views! make this a note i wont change those "quirky" things about myself, cuz then i wouldnt be simply me.

Again, thank Y/you to A/all who replied!!!

*hugs and kisses*
~juicy

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Smiles big! personally just the statement "true" of anything makes my skin crawl...as even with terms such as slave, we are still talking of human beings with individual thoughts and needs and continually evolving...can't imagine a juicy without all those quirky things!

big hugs!

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Originally Posted by Ragoczy

On the other hand, if a "true" submissive has to change her political views ... there is an election coming up ...

Maybe I need to get busy ... for the good of the country.

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Ummm.... ya think so???? I don't believe you've taught me to share that well.

Course, if it's for the good of the country, I'm sure I could find SOME way to amuse myself while you "get busy".

-Ragoczy's kitten

Perhaps a bit late on the bandwagon, here, but I agree completely with the sentiment that no one should be ordered to have certain political or religious views. And that applies to way more than just submissives. The intellectual tyranny of people who demand obedience to a particular governmental, or, worse, religious creed is responsible for far too many conflicts - personal, or societal - to be taken seriously anymore. As some have said, even if you want to be with someone who agrees with you, it is simply impossible to order that person to agree with you. Agreement is won by countless conversations and an open mind, and may turn against you (that is, you may find that you agree with the person you are trying to convince just as easily as you may convince them, especially if you're really being open minded and not just pretending). More often than that, though, agreement exists before a relationship happens. Those of us who rate political and religious concurrence highly are apt not to get involved with people who we can't agree with.

My story: I am an atheist, but my submissive is a Baha'i, and I wouldn't dare try to tell her to believe otherwise. Despite being an atheist, I despise trying to convince people that atheism is "true" or "right." It's my belief, and other people have theirs, and the world is better for the variety of religions that exist (and would be better still if more people appreciated that variety, instead of fearing it). A relationship is the same way: my relationship is better because my sub and I believe different things, and our conversations are richer because we don't always agree. While we don't have so many political differences, I think the same could be said about those who do.

Personally, what I can't stand, and what I feel it is fair to demand of someone I love, is a certain degree of awareness and education (as in: "read this"). I would never try to convince a Christian, for example, that God does not exist, but I would try to, say, make one read the Bible if she had not. Different beliefs make the world richer, ignorance makes it poorer.

I'd love to know where the requirments to be a true submissive or a real dom are written. Of course you cannot command a person to change what they think. And any Dom worth his salt should be able to convice the sub to change her views through logical argument as subserviant says.

That said, the sub must support her Dom and certainly not do anything that would work against him. This may mean that a sub has to publicly change her political or religious allegiances. This is not as shockling as it may seem and happens all the time. Are we saying the there are no women out there who haven't converted to another religion in order to marry. And isn't strange how the wife of almost every politician seems to share his political views. I am sure that in many places around the world villagers or tribesmen will vote according to how their leader dictates. And please don't tell me that everybody on the Presidents staff agrees every policy, yet all will publicly support the policy.

Personally I would not ask my sub to publicly change her views but I can see the logic behind some doms insisting on it. "Every subject's duty is the king's, but every subject's soul is his own," wrote Shakespeare in Henry V. The debate between public duty and private conscience is not new and was the central topic in the book/movie a Man for All Season which describes how King Henry VIII had Sir Thomas More beheaded when he - in denying the King's right to divorce Queen Catherine and marry Anne Boleyn - refused to sign an oath proclaiming the King supreme ruler of the church. No doubt King Henry considered Sir Thomas not truly submissive to the King's will.
This thread question is not as clear cut as everybody seems to think.

All true MacG, but in the context of being a "true" submissive... imo, out of place.

You are describing other adjectives.

The original post describes a situation that requires the sub to actually change her views, not just her support of his views. And that she would somehow be holding back something to not alter even her innermost thoughts for him... and that she would be lucky to find an accepting master...

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Originally Posted by juicysub

The only reason why i ask is because i was talking with someOne who told me that i could not be "truely" submissive not to change my views on such and told me that i would only be so lucky to find a Master who accepted that.

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...and yet, from the repsonses, it seems pretty clear finding such would indeed NOT be a problem.

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Originally Posted by Ozme52

All true MacG, but in the context of being a "true" submissive... imo, out of place.

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I don't know if it is out of place or not. Juicysub did not give all the details, not that she should have anyway. I did say that it is impossible to change her private views but it was not clear to me that the Dom wanted her to change "her innermost thoughts for him". Where did you get that from, did she say that?.

It seemed like everybody was bashing the Dom and I merely attempted to point out a scenario where a sub could be expected to change her (public) views. I thought I was adding a new dimension to the thread rather than going off topic.

No Macguffin, I thought it was a useful dimension too. Though for me personally really depending on the situation I think I would question the compatibility in a relationship if such a thing became common place. There is only so many times one can publicly behave a certain way that is completely disconnected from how they feel, before they're just role playing in life.