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This article concerns the knotty question of whether you should never lie to friends, or if it is sometimes necesseary to lie in order to protect them?
I would like to add family to that question.
Other than the small white lies we all use to grease the wheels of communication ("You're looking good today"), I don't make a habit of lying to friends. I may not volunteer information, which might be considered a lie of omission, but if asked a straight question I give them a straight answer.
Which probably accounts for the fact that I don't have any friends!:eek:
Always. If they're a friend, they'll forgive, aid, and/or console. Why hide?Quote:
Originally Posted by Thorne
If they don't, they weren't your friend and giving up your integrity wouldn't have been worth it.
But that doesn't mean I won't lie to a specific friend to preserve a promise to them.
Lying in and of itself is not wrong. It depends on the motivation.
---------------
And all that said, I have no doubt I slip up every once in a while.
What a tricky subject...
We've all been taught that it's wrong to tell a lie but I agree with Thorne that it completely depends on the "type" of lie. For instance, he mentioned telling someone they look great when they obviously don't. It's just a little boost for your friend or loved one and where's the harm in that?
This goes hand-in-hand with Oz's comment as well about the motivation. Although what's that old saying about the road to hell being paved with good intentions? Slippery slope, there.
One lies to friends in their interests, or to avoid straining the friendship. Rarely are the lies malicious, and when they are, one isn't really being a friend at all.
White lies are good.
But what about the other, more important area of life, where one's integrity is much more important: work. Who lies at work, to cover up mistakes, to do a colleague down, to gain promotion? These lies are far more significant and the level of dishonesty is far greater.
Oh yikes no. Lies at work are bad, bad, bad. I have no respect for anyone who does that.
As far as whether or not I lie to friends...I guess you could say I do the little white lies to make them feel better. I have also lied by omission when telling someone something could be hurtful or strain relationships.
Nope. I walked the straight and narrow. Always found it better to fess up and fix the problem than hide it and let it get worse.Quote:
Originally Posted by MMI
Everyone got the due they earned. I never stepped up on someone elses back. I often found myself waiting on a promotion while others less qualified got their chances first... and learned that following a bad act is far easier than following a good one.
Personally, we all thrive to uphold our integrity and back stabbing or covering up for one's own mistakes or taking other people's credit for one's own advance are lies most of us wouldn't lower ourselves to.
However, when there is a conflict of interest between business goals and the welfare of the employee, then the line becomes fuzzy. Say your upper management just told you that they will lay off half of your group in six months, but they want you to keep them in the dark because they want the project to be delivered on time without any disruption. And one of your employee senses something wrong and come and ask you whether there will be a layoff coming soon, how would you respond in that situation? I guess my point is sometimes things may not be as black and white as it seems, professionally or personally. We all need to use our judgement in any given situation and make sure our decision will be a good reflection of our own value system.
Your would have me!Quote:
Originally Posted by Thorne
Especially if you do not say 'you look good today' if in fact I look like something the cat just dragged in ;-)
I'd say lying is always wrong, and it would take a really tricky and bad situation to justify it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ozme52
I think 'little white lies' are a pestilence.
Let's start with something simpler. What about lies of omission? Are they lies too?Quote:
Originally Posted by thir
Yes, and that's the ones I don't use enough of. My friends' commonest complaint is too much information.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ozme52
I don't know. Can you give me some examples?Quote:
Originally Posted by Ozme52
If you see your friend's husband out with another woman, do you tell her what you saw, or do you not say anything about it (a lie of omission)?Quote:
Originally Posted by thir
After all, you may not know the circumstances. It might be completely innocent, and she might even know about it. Saying something might make her think you are trying to destroy her faith in her husband. That would affect your friendship.
But if you say nothing and she later learns you knew and didn't say anything, that will affect your friendship, too.
I will... later. Thorne's example works too.Quote:
Originally Posted by thir
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But I have a better example. How about this direct (white or otherwise) lie?
You wake up with a headache. Feel awful. Go to work anyway because you have an important meeting, let's say, with a new client of some sort. New client greets you and asks the obligatory "How are you today?"
Do you tell him? Say nothing? Or do you say "Fine, and you?"
Is it important or even relevent to tell your new client that you feel horrible, and even the cause of your headache? And assuming it doesn't affect the meeting and won't in the future affect your work, would the client want to hear the details of your temporary woes?
Do you still stand by that statement?Quote:
Originally Posted by thir
thir, I usually agree with your posts but I have to disagree strongly with this one....."lying is always wrong"...yikes.Quote:
Originally Posted by thir
Oz makes a great example in his post about answering, "Fine, thanks..." to the new client.
And would you honestly want to hear someone say, "Actually thir, you look like bloody hell, very tired, like you've just been sick and gained 20 lbs." when you ask them if they like your new hat?
Like I said before, should we run around lying constantly...no. But a small (read: harmless---and it's a personal choice what you find to be a harmless lie) lie of omission or "white" lie can make life more bearable for the liar *and* the person being lied to.
BTW, I love your hat...and have you lost weight? :D
Thorne, if you do not know the husband is being unfaithful, you would be very unwise to mention it, especially if not asked. I don't think it is any kind of lie, unless it is what sleeping dogs do.
For it to be a lie of omission, you must deliberately refrain from confirming the wife's suspicions.
IMHO, that is.
Ozme, are you really trying to deceive the client by not admitting to a headache? Or are you simply rehearsing formalities? After all, if you said, "Oh, I have a headache," wouldn't the client simply respond, "I'm sorry to hear it," and then move on to inspect your price list?
Now, if you had bubonic plague, and still said "Fine," that would be a lie of omission.
IMHO.
my experience with being honest is sort of like what Thorne said, i just lost a close friend when I told her something she didn't want to hear. It was simply a statement my son said about her daughter (they are 5). I hadn't told her he didn't want to play with her anymore because she was being bossy until one day i did and no more friend!
I didn't claim it was a deceit. I said there are acceptable white lies and thir challenged that. So this was my example.Quote:
Originally Posted by MMI
If the lie was intended to deceive, meaning lead that person astray in deed or choice, then the motivation for the lie would make it not "white".
Accepting that there's no intention to deceive, aren't these introductory formalities simply empty words?
I think a lie must be an attempt to deceive, whether for "good/kind" reasons ( a white lie) or for "bad" reasons (a proper lie).
Quote:
Originally Posted by MMI
And using that logic, if said client responded with, "I'm sorry to hear it..." when what he really meant was, "Oh stop complaining you pain in the ass. No one cares about your headache. My dog just threw-up on my new carpet." then he would be a liar too.
However, by answering in a polite manner, (white lie or not), he just made your meeting a whole lot easier to get through.
My point precisely: empty words, polite noises, normal interaction.
I for one am tired of lies both harmless and harmful.
Words have power, far more than I understood as a younger man. These days I try to be impeccable with my words.
In the "how are you?" example i can respond with "As well as life allows, thanks for asking, and yourself?" remaining truthful without dumping all my "problems" on the person who asked. If they want to know more they can ask, if they don't, we can move on gracefully.
I think in all the above examples one could find and use words that are truthful, that omit omitting, and can serve the same goal as the tempting little white lie.
Honesty does not need to be blunt, just honest.
Opinion gets in the way of facts, and perception often makes a "liar" out of those who see or experience something different. And we as humans have a hard enough time communicating effectively already. Do we really need to complicate this reality by adding intentional falsehoods into the mix?
I for one, do not agree that what I think to be harmless, would indeed be harmless to another. Whether they are injured or not, by my words, will ultimately be decided by them.
On another note, if you should see me sometime, and I look like shit, or my fly is unzipped, or there is toilet paper hanging out the back of my pants. Please do tell me, I would rather have one moment of embarrassment than an entire day.
Anyway just one mans ramblings, been a while since I rambled in here ;)
Respectfully,
TS
Going back to the original question about lying to friends.
"What is a true friend?" must first be answered and agreed upon by everybody in a discussion such as this, which of course is impossible. And "Why did I pick this person as a true friend?" must also be answered. I know, picky, picky, detail freak.
We're all lucky if we have one or two actual true friends. I have two, that I have been friends with for 35 and over 40 years (yeah, we're old coots). It would be impossible for me to go into all the things that make these "true" friends, but it is everything from being there at births and weddings and graduations and funerals to just plain old fishing buddies. The thought of any of us actually lying to one another is just too impossible to think about. I don't think the question for this forum is for that deep of a friendship.
That leaves what? Might it be said that the friends in the original question are really more like non-confrontational acquaintances? They may play golf or enjoy a beer after work together. We all have several of those, which I feel is what the article first referenced is about. The article calls them "rhinestones". My two friends are "jewels".
The jewels and rhinestones are treated differently and cannot be in the same conversation. The situation you find yourself in with a rhinestone can have several reasons for little white lies, or lies by omission, or just about anything. There is also "does this friend need to know" something? Is there a "need to know", or are you just being snoopy, or is it none of your business?
My two jewels could walk into the local brewery and see my wife there with some unknown man having a beer and they would just wander over and introduce themselves. Nothing to be sneaky about. My wife will have already told me she was going to meet Joe-Bill-Sam-whomever, anyway, and they know that. My wife is a jewel friendship, too, by the way.
It's having all of those rhinestone friendships and reading them as jewel friendships where problems begin. I think the article was pretty good at making a reader realize what a bunch of soap-opera friendships there are out there.
And, come on, how many of you are truthfully born on January 1st? That was so funny seeing about half of the members born that day! Could it be deduced that if you are born January 1st that you might have some sort of BDSM tendencies? LMAO
Sorry about the late answer, our IT conection dropped - for 11 days!!
This is a little tricky for me, because in my culture we never ask 'how are you' as a greeting, and I have to guess a little here.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ozme52
It is my impression that "how are you" is a greeting similar to 'goddag' (good day) a culturally consensus of how to greet someone politely. Not meant as an actual question about your life or well being.
So I'd say you simply say 'fine, and you?' not expecting the other to actually tell you how they are either.
As said in the other mail, sorry to drop out of the conversation like that but as you probably guessed, IT connection vanished.
I understand this as an example of 'lie by omission'. So, first, I do not think that such a situation or similar is a lie in and of itself (if you do not tell). You can identify a lie easily as saying something you know is not correct, but 'lie by omission' is not identifiable the same way - so it seems to me. It depends entirely on the situation.Quote:
Originally Posted by Thorne
If I just saw the husband of a friend with another woman, I probably would think nothing of it and would not think of mentioning it, unless it happened to come up in a conversation.
If said friend had talked to me about being afraid that her husband was unfaithful, I guess I would mention it.
If said husband was kissing the woman passionately, I would have to consider whether it was none of my business, or if I had an obligation to tell.
Hm. I think the concept of lie by omission only makes real sense to me in situations where I have a clear obligation to inform of something, and do not.
Yikes? Well I can understand that it sounds sort or radical, but personally I have always felt better when people say what they mean. In the long wrong it makes life easier.Quote:
Originally Posted by brwneydgirl
This may qualify as more information than asked for ;-)Quote:
And would you honestly want to hear someone say, "Actually thir, you look like bloody hell, very tired, like you've just been sick and gained 20 lbs." when you ask them if they like your new hat?
If I ask about my hat, it is my hat I expect an answer to.
Seriously, lying by omission does not mean that you have to say everything that pops up in your head, and which no one has asked for. At least, that is how I see it.
Also seriously, I am simply not comfortable with people who say I look good if I know I look like hell. It is a situation I can identify with because of my illness, and so I can say with honesty (having been in this very situation frequently) that I do not want it. If people feel like commenting on my looks, I expexct them to say what they think!
If I make a dinner and it tastes awful, I expect people to say so, so I can learn to do it better. I know this is hard on other people, and would be hard on me as well. But it is what I, myself, want.
Yes, it is different from person to person what they consider harmless - an important point. And if everybody answers how good you look in your new hat, you never know what anybody thinks of anything (by extension.) And you have all the trouble of trying to tell someone that 'you really mean it'.Quote:
Like I said before, should we run around lying constantly...no. But a small (read: harmless---and it's a personal choice what you find to be a harmless lie) lie of omission or "white" lie can make life more bearable for the liar *and* the person being lied to.
BTW, I love your hat...and have you lost weight? :D
I understand that others have different opinions, and would like to point out that I am merely saying what I myself would really want.
It is painful to loose a friend, and there are indeed terrible situations where one comment can mean the world.Quote:
Originally Posted by 13'sbadkitty
But I would not define a relationship as a friendship if you cannot normally sort out things that go wrong, but have to balance your words on a silver weight not to get it wrong.
Yes.Quote:
Originally Posted by Thorne
Or to put it another way: if someone asks your honest opinion, do you give it, if you think it will hurt them?
As I see it, if you lie, you are 1) rejcting their request which they must have a reason for 2) appointing yourself their guardian, and deciding what they can or cannot stand to hear. You do not see them as adults capable of making their own decisions. 3) Or maybe we are in the difficult grey area of who it is you are protecting: the friend, or yourself from their reactions.
If someone asks your honest opinion and gets mad at the answer, then that is their problem.
But that is not the same as saying that your either do the 'white' lie, or use the equavalent of a verbal six-shooter. You can try to say things gently, but truth-fully.
And therein lies the problem with questions such as this. We have different definitions.Quote:
Originally Posted by thir
So when you say it's never okay to lie... and I say it is... we maybe saying exactly the same thing... with different definitions of what constitutes a lie but the same definition of acceptable intercourse. ;)
Speaking of intercourse.... shall we "_ _ _ k"?
Oh for crying out loud! :rolleyes:Quote:
Originally Posted by Ozme52
Somebody get a hose. Oz woke up from his nap.
I will be first in line to tell you that your fly is unzipped...then again, I might just enjoy the view for a while before I tell you...is that a lie of omission?:cool:Quote:
Originally Posted by TantricSoul
^ ;)
Take your time and enjoy the view beg, then when your satiated please do take a moment to pass along the
xyzpdq.
lol ... you're awesome.
LMAO... what's wrong with a little talk? ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by Thorne
I do not think so..I still think lying is a pestilence in all but a few very special situations - like to save someone's life or the like. I do not believe in 'white lies for the sake of the person lied to' - I think it is patronising. I do not think black lies are good either.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ozme52
Omission of information is different - and hard to define. And that is why I say there is such a thing as more info than people asked for.
Ah, Spring has come to you as well, has it? ;-))))))))))Quote:
Speaking of intercourse.... shall we "_ _ _ k"?
I think it was the American poet Ogden Nash who wrote:Quote:
Originally Posted by thir
Don't tell your friends about your indigestion.
"How are you" is a greeting, not a question.
More than patronising, it's arrogant.Quote:
Originally Posted by thir
I'm reminded of an episode of "Voyager" we saw recently. The holographic Doctor discovers a gap in his memory a year and a half old, apparently related to a vanished crew member. It turns out (SPOILER WARNING)
that the crewman died on the operating table in circumstances which sent him into a cybernetic breakdown, and Torres deleted the memory to save him. So now they have to decide whether to do it again... and the conclusion is that the Doctor has become a person, and when people have problems, friends help them cope, not decide unilaterally to keep information from them for their own good.
OMG!!! Did you sit behind me in 8th grade Social Studies class? :D I didn't think anybody said that besides me...LOLQuote:
Originally Posted by TantricSoul