Do you lie to friends?

[thir]

Lying in and of itself is not wrong. It depends on the motivation.

I'd say lying is always wrong, and it would take a really tricky and bad situation to justify it.

I think 'little white lies' are a pestilence.

[Ozme52]

I'd say lying is always wrong, and it would take a really tricky and bad situation to justify it.

I think 'little white lies' are a pestilence.

Let's start with something simpler. What about lies of omission? Are they lies too?

[leo9]

Let's start with something simpler. What about lies of omission? Are they lies too?

Yes, and that's the ones I don't use enough of. My friends' commonest complaint is too much information.

[thir]

Let's start with something simpler. What about lies of omission? Are they lies too?

I don't know. Can you give me some examples?

[Thorne]

I don't know. Can you give me some examples?

If you see your friend's husband out with another woman, do you tell her what you saw, or do you not say anything about it (a lie of omission)?

After all, you may not know the circumstances. It might be completely innocent, and she might even know about it. Saying something might make her think you are trying to destroy her faith in her husband. That would affect your friendship.

But if you say nothing and she later learns you knew and didn't say anything, that will affect your friendship, too.

[thir]

As said in the other mail, sorry to drop out of the conversation like that but as you probably guessed, IT connection vanished.

If you see your friend's husband out with another woman, do you tell her what you saw, or do you not say anything about it (a lie of omission)?

After all, you may not know the circumstances. It might be completely innocent, and she might even know about it. Saying something might make her think you are trying to destroy her faith in her husband. That would affect your friendship.

But if you say nothing and she later learns you knew and didn't say anything, that will affect your friendship, too.

I understand this as an example of 'lie by omission'. So, first, I do not think that such a situation or similar is a lie in and of itself (if you do not tell). You can identify a lie easily as saying something you know is not correct, but 'lie by omission' is not identifiable the same way - so it seems to me. It depends entirely on the situation.

If I just saw the husband of a friend with another woman, I probably would think nothing of it and would not think of mentioning it, unless it happened to come up in a conversation.

If said friend had talked to me about being afraid that her husband was unfaithful, I guess I would mention it.

If said husband was kissing the woman passionately, I would have to consider whether it was none of my business, or if I had an obligation to tell.

Hm. I think the concept of lie by omission only makes real sense to me in situations where I have a clear obligation to inform of something, and do not.

[Ozme52]

I don't know. Can you give me some examples?

I will... later. Thorne's example works too.
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But I have a better example. How about this direct (white or otherwise) lie?

You wake up with a headache. Feel awful. Go to work anyway because you have an important meeting, let's say, with a new client of some sort. New client greets you and asks the obligatory "How are you today?"

Do you tell him? Say nothing? Or do you say "Fine, and you?"

Is it important or even relevent to tell your new client that you feel horrible, and even the cause of your headache? And assuming it doesn't affect the meeting and won't in the future affect your work, would the client want to hear the details of your temporary woes?

I'd say lying is always wrong, and it would take a really tricky and bad situation to justify it.

Do you still stand by that statement?

[thir]

Sorry about the late answer, our IT conection dropped - for 11 days!!

I will... later. Thorne's example works too.
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But I have a better example. How about this direct (white or otherwise) lie?

You wake up with a headache. Feel awful. Go to work anyway because you have an important meeting, let's say, with a new client of some sort. New client greets you and asks the obligatory "How are you today?"

Do you tell him? Say nothing? Or do you say "Fine, and you?"

This is a little tricky for me, because in my culture we never ask 'how are you' as a greeting, and I have to guess a little here.

It is my impression that "how are you" is a greeting similar to 'goddag' (good day) a culturally consensus of how to greet someone politely. Not meant as an actual question about your life or well being.

So I'd say you simply say 'fine, and you?' not expecting the other to actually tell you how they are either.

[leo9]

This is a little tricky for me, because in my culture we never ask 'how are you' as a greeting, and I have to guess a little here.

It is my impression that "how are you" is a greeting similar to 'goddag' (good day) a culturally consensus of how to greet someone politely. Not meant as an actual question about your life or well being.

I think it was the American poet Ogden Nash who wrote:
Don't tell your friends about your indigestion.
"How are you" is a greeting, not a question.

[brwneydgirl]

I'd say lying is always wrong, and it would take a really tricky and bad situation to justify it.

I think 'little white lies' are a pestilence.

thir, I usually agree with your posts but I have to disagree strongly with this one....."lying is always wrong"...yikes.

Oz makes a great example in his post about answering, "Fine, thanks..." to the new client.

And would you honestly want to hear someone say, "Actually thir, you look like bloody hell, very tired, like you've just been sick and gained 20 lbs." when you ask them if they like your new hat?

Like I said before, should we run around lying constantly...no. But a small (read: harmless---and it's a personal choice what you find to be a harmless lie) lie of omission or "white" lie can make life more bearable for the liar *and* the person being lied to.

BTW, I love your hat...and have you lost weight?

[thir]

thir, I usually agree with your posts but I have to disagree strongly with this one....."lying is always wrong"...yikes.

Yikes? Well I can understand that it sounds sort or radical, but personally I have always felt better when people say what they mean. In the long wrong it makes life easier.

And would you honestly want to hear someone say, "Actually thir, you look like bloody hell, very tired, like you've just been sick and gained 20 lbs." when you ask them if they like your new hat?

This may qualify as more information than asked for ;-)
If I ask about my hat, it is my hat I expect an answer to.

Seriously, lying by omission does not mean that you have to say everything that pops up in your head, and which no one has asked for. At least, that is how I see it.

Also seriously, I am simply not comfortable with people who say I look good if I know I look like hell. It is a situation I can identify with because of my illness, and so I can say with honesty (having been in this very situation frequently) that I do not want it. If people feel like commenting on my looks, I expexct them to say what they think!

If I make a dinner and it tastes awful, I expect people to say so, so I can learn to do it better. I know this is hard on other people, and would be hard on me as well. But it is what I, myself, want.

Like I said before, should we run around lying constantly...no. But a small (read: harmless---and it's a personal choice what you find to be a harmless lie) lie of omission or "white" lie can make life more bearable for the liar *and* the person being lied to.

BTW, I love your hat...and have you lost weight?

Yes, it is different from person to person what they consider harmless - an important point. And if everybody answers how good you look in your new hat, you never know what anybody thinks of anything (by extension.) And you have all the trouble of trying to tell someone that 'you really mean it'.

I understand that others have different opinions, and would like to point out that I am merely saying what I myself would really want.

[Ozme52]

Seriously, lying by omission does not mean that you have to say everything that pops up in your head, and which no one has asked for. At least, that is how I see it.

And therein lies the problem with questions such as this. We have different definitions.

So when you say it's never okay to lie... and I say it is... we maybe saying exactly the same thing... with different definitions of what constitutes a lie but the same definition of acceptable intercourse.

Speaking of intercourse.... shall we "_ _ _ k"?

[Thorne]

Speaking of intercourse.... shall we "_ _ _ k"?

Oh for crying out loud!

Somebody get a hose. Oz woke up from his nap.

[Ozme52]

Oh for crying out loud!

Somebody get a hose. Oz woke up from his nap.

LMAO... what's wrong with a little talk?

[thir]

And therein lies the problem with questions such as this. We have different definitions.

So when you say it's never okay to lie... and I say it is... we maybe saying exactly the same thing... with different definitions of what constitutes a lie but the same definition of acceptable intercourse.

I do not think so..I still think lying is a pestilence in all but a few very special situations - like to save someone's life or the like. I do not believe in 'white lies for the sake of the person lied to' - I think it is patronising. I do not think black lies are good either.

Omission of information is different - and hard to define. And that is why I say there is such a thing as more info than people asked for.

Speaking of intercourse.... shall we "_ _ _ k"?

Ah, Spring has come to you as well, has it? ;-))))))))))

[leo9]

I do not think so..I still think lying is a pestilence in all but a few very special situations - like to save someone's life or the like. I do not believe in 'white lies for the sake of the person lied to' - I think it is patronising.

More than patronising, it's arrogant.

I'm reminded of an episode of "Voyager" we saw recently. The holographic Doctor discovers a gap in his memory a year and a half old, apparently related to a vanished crew member. It turns out (SPOILER WARNING)















that the crewman died on the operating table in circumstances which sent him into a cybernetic breakdown, and Torres deleted the memory to save him. So now they have to decide whether to do it again... and the conclusion is that the Doctor has become a person, and when people have problems, friends help them cope, not decide unilaterally to keep information from them for their own good.