Submissive and Feminist

I have had certain thoughts nagging away at me since I started this voyage....

Is it possible to be a Submissive and a Feminist at the same time?

I am not an extreme feminist by any means; I see my feminist stance more as a belief in equal rights across the board for men and women. In my external life I make my own decisions and pay my own way daily and I wouldn't have it any other way. I expect to be treated with the same respect and to the same wage as any man doing my job would be and I expect to be offered the option to taste the wine in a restaurant as any man might be.

But does my desire to give up my rights behind the closed doors of my bedroom set back the movement of feminism?

My heart tells me that of course the answer is No as I don’t feel I have changed or compromised myself or any of my beliefs while fulfilling my submissive desires but still there is this niggling question.

I did find this while looking on the net which I found interesting

http://members.aol.com/NOWSM/Support.html

Looking for others opinions and thoughts

slave327-834-200

Oh man, I am not sure I should even get into this debate.

I have a major issue with the whole feminist "cause" thing. I think it has done more to hurt women than to help them.

Yes, I want to vote...and get paid the same... and I believe I am just as smart and capable as any man. But I am different.

The feminist movement was originally supposed to be about "choice". Women could "choose" to work. Or they could "choose" to stay home.

But in reality its not like that. The proof is that we are asking ourselves this questions. Am I hampering the "movement" by being submissive? Am I hampering the "movement" by staying home and raising my own children? Am I hampering the "movement" by cooking and cleaning?

Whenever we are having a tough day at work, one of my girlfriends and I joke about how we were "screwed by the feminists." We have to do just as much at home, but have 40 less hours a week to do it in because we have to work also. Instead of being chained to a stove, I am chained to a desk.

The "cause" also represses information that women need to know. Important studies about the dangers of birth control pills and abortions are scarcely reported lest it upset the feminests.

All that being said, I am a strong woman, well educated, and have a good, professional job. I am also a sub. The crazier my day at work, the more I need to submit when I get home. It is my release, my centre, and my driving force.

And if that upsets the feminists...well, screw 'em.

This is something I have been wondering about, and indeed for me it goes deeper, to trying to work out where my own personal submission stops. I have more or less reached the conclusion that I am personally - this is all just me, not proposing anyone else should be the same - middle of the road-ish, about everything. Basically, I believe in independence, mutual respect and tolerance. I am submissive and I do not see submission - a personal choice, and within my limits - as contradictory to feminism.

I believe that women are still quite often not respected and treated as equals within the workplace, or at home: where they are capable of providing an equal service, they should be treated equally. Where they are capable of better, they should be respected as such. Where they are less capable, they should be able to accept it.

Given that I appreciate the freedoms that I have as a woman in a 'liberated' society, I dislike the strongly feminist attitude, the ultra PC, the 'there's no difference' or, even, the 'wimmin are superior' attitudes.

That is where my middle of the road-ness comes in: I cannot approve of any set of beliefs taken to the extent where they lose tolerance, flexibility, acceptance of other's differences, and become demands for total compliance. I take the same attitude on politics; hard liner-veganism (come on : eating honey does NOT exploit the bees!); religion (I have my spirituality and beliefs; I honour other's beliefs; but I cannot comprehend the need to belong to a church or any body of faith that, again, wishes to dictate my behaviour: I don't try to dictate theirs); anything else that tends towards the fanatic/totalitarian.

The same goes for the lifestyle: total submission (slavedom in its most 'pure' form) does seem for me to be the antithesis of liberation and individuality, which I hold dear. But providing the individual (woman, in this instance, but men too) is happy and making a choice to be that way, then surely they are entirely living by feminist statutes: this choice has not been imposed upon them by society, they have arrived at it through their own free will.

Lot of words. I stress again, this is my opinion, my attitude to life: others differ, vive la différence.

I'm a feminist also, but not the conventional one. I completely agree with everything that lily just said. The feminist movement, the way it has been going, is only doing harm for women in general. The way that I subscribe to feminism is that I don't think that women should have so much pressure on themselves to be cosmetically perfect all the time. Don't interpret this the wrong way; I'm not saying women should never wear makeup or shave their legs or try to look good. I know that it's fun to dress up and look stunning sometimes, it really is fun. What I'm saying is they shouldn't feel like shit if they go outside one day without spending time sprucing themselves up. It's honestly so sad how far women have been pushed in regards to their expectations. I'm a substitute teacher sometimes at the local schools, and it's really disgusting for me to view the social interactions of those kids...not only as a psychologist, but as a human being.

That being said, it's this way with a lot of movements, a lot of my favorite movements. It's frustrating. They're all working against themselves. One example at the front of my mind is sexual orientation discrimination. When activists stand up for the rights of gay/bi/trans sexuals, what they're doing in essence is *seperating* those individuals from the rest of the populace. Do we really need to isolate them more? The original problem is that the normal community shuns them. It's ridiculous. I do believe that someone needs to stand up for their rights but the current activists are going about it absolutely wrong!

As per the original question; your submissiveness has nothing to do with your feminist views. Being a feminist is something that is on a broad scale, encompassing everyone that it influences; namely women. Your submissiveness only deals with you as an individual, and your craving for something. Do you think that all womens should be enslaved and kept in shackles? I doubt it. So feel free in your submissiveness, it's something you have that most people don't. It lets you be happy so don't throw it away. From an acutely feminist point of view; it would be wrong of you to deny women the *choice* of submissiveness ;). But seriously, it's fine, for all the reasons I just gave.

Enjoy,
~star

I could be called a feminist, but our problem is we take EVERYTHING way to far. They aren’t pushing anymore for equality; they are pushing for better then Men. I am a firm believer in equality for the Sexes, My mother and I both Helped work on and Ran my dads Construction company (Which is why I now hate hard line feminists, and even a good portion of woman I meet) this is there version of Equal rights, they should have the same job but they shouldn’t be made to do the same work, take a look at Military standards PT tests, higher requirements for Men than they have for Woman, go work on Construction, a large portion of the Woman on a Job Sight will Piss, moan, Bitch and complain that they can’t lift what they are asked, or do some other requirement of the job and get out of it, then bitch again because they get passed over for a promotion and a Man (Who mind you did his job without whining and did all the duties asked of him) got “her promotion.” And don’t even get me started on what they can get away with on Sexual harassment, its to the point where even I couldn’t tell a racy joke without risk of offending some of these…. (I won’t finish this sentence because I will not call them the same sex as me, prefer to call them something nasty)

And at the Risk of pissing someone off all of our equality isn’t, our latest repressed minority is a Man and normally he is white. We have courts that force men to pay for children who have been proven not theirs, we give options to woman that men can not and will never have, We give less demanding rolls to woman listing them as the same job and expect woman to deserve the same pay as that guy who is doing to more demanding roll. We have Affirmative Action to protect the Minority but we are creating another minority, because we cannot grant greater treatment to one person over another in the name of equality, in no stretch is that real equality. (Mind you this is coming from a Half blood Cherokee/Sioux Woman so call me racist/sexist if you want to, but know I love myself, I love myself enough to except who and what I am despite that it goes against what I have been taught to be, I was never taught to submit to a man, I was taught to be a true equal, not this bastardized equality that the feminists want, my submission is mine by choice, and if it screws with the Feminist movement as set down by Hardcore feminists I am glad of my roll in screwing with that movement, because Men are just as deserving of rights as woman)

:ty for all of your replies, I had a feeling I may not be alone in having questioned this part of myself and as I hoped raising this subject has opened up other, valuable, points of view to me.

I understand and agree with many of the points made regarding the feminist movement and feminists loosing sight of what the "cause" was. I am in no way an active or extreme feminist and I couldn't agree with Moptop more when she said
"I believe that women are still quite often not respected and treated as equals within the workplace, or at home: where they are capable of providing an equal service, they should be treated equally. Where they are capable of better, they should be respected as such. Where they are less capable, they should be able to accept it."

I don't feel I have to justify something that feels so entirely natural to me but this supposed contradiction has been on my mind a while and I wanted to hear others view points on it and still hope to hear more.

I am grateful to be surrounded by such open and intelligent women here and if ever questioned on this in the future I will use the following quote.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by star_catcher77

From an acutely feminist point of view; it would be wrong of you to deny women the *choice* of submissiveness ;)

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;rose;

This thread, some of the replies to it are making me depressed.

I'm a feminist. have been since the age of 7, when I found out what the word meant. My father telling me that I shouldn't call myself that, people might get the wrong idea only strengthened my opinion. I had no idea what could possibly be wrong with feminism.
Older and wiser now, but still willing to jump up and down and go 'look, feminist! I'm a feminist!'

Yes, there are radicals out there, and I did write a brief paper for school a few weeks ago about the harm the radical feminists have done to current feminism, but the radicals are in the minority.
this knee-jerk response of 'I'm not a feminist, feminists are hardcore man-haters!' really gets to me. Honestly, most feminists like men! They're pretty decent people, and the traditional conservative patriarchy often gives them as little credit as it does women.
Feminism didn't 'screw us over', it's just not done yet. There are still imbalances, and yes, women still do more housework than men, despite having careers, but that's because we're not done yet! anyone who thinks that there is full equality now is highly disillusioned.

but I'm off topic...

No, feminism does not interfere with submission. At least not my version of feminism. I'm a sex-positive feminist, with an emphasis on choice. My vrsion of feminism advocates as a wide a range of personal choice as is practical for both men & women. I choose to engage in a BDSM-oriented relationship. Doesn't make me less of an independant person, or less of a feminist.

I'm really trying to stop ranting here, but I hatehatehate the attitude that all feminists are radicals and think women deserve more than men.

Its because of of the reasons that Lily stated that I will never call myself a feminist. I think a lot of the equality movements go to far with things. Everyone should be treated equal but so many of the movements want reparations for the past and really they want to be treated better adn given things because they were previously in a lower position. I took a women studies class in college a few years ago and it was nothing but bashing men, the military, and republicans, it was also durign the semester we invaded Iraq. Ireally felt that it was a women are superior adn shoudl control everrythign in the world, be cause we are motherly adn don't fight or cause violence and we know how to talk adn make everythign happy so men shut the fuck up and sit quietlyin a corner until we ack you too do something attitude. The teacher also got on my nerves because she found out I was wiccan and couldn't understand why i did feel the same way about all of this because I worshiped the goddess and nature. I reminded her there is also a god in wicca and is equal with the goddess..... Ok now I am just rambling on about things back to teh point of this thread

Being submissive in one area of your life doesn't mean you are any less equal over all. I am still an alpha female, reguardless of whether I submit or not. I actually think that submission makes you a stronger person in other areas of your life, because you then know what it is like to do things for others. How many of todays feminists have actually really expirienced the oppression that previous generations have. i also don't look at being submissive as being opressed. Oppression is a forced state and you don't have any control over what is being done. Being a submissive you still have the option of saying a safeword and everything stops or ending the relationship with your Master. You have a choice in what is being done to you and you choose to endure because you enjoy it.

I agree with vistana that men and women are not presently "equal." I have a typical "woman in a man's world" job. My clients are mainly ranchers, oilmen, or blue collar, rough around the edges kind of guys. Very few women. And here I am... a woman, in my mid-twenties, and handling their money. So absolutely I had to prove myself. But I did. And now they respect me, know that I am always working in their interests, and they send all of their friends to see me as well.

I can do my job just as well as a man. But I do it differently. I will probably never close a deal on the golf course. And I don't have a problem with that.

I certainly question why we have to be more equal. Why can't men and women be content in their differences? There is truth to the saying "men hunt and women nest." I don't see a problem with that.

In our last federal election one of the major debates was whether or not we should start a national, taxpayer funded day care system. Even putting aside the money pit issue it would be, the entire concept is my worst fear realized. The idea is that it will encourage more women to work. But I strongly believe our society should be encouraging more women (and men) to devote their lives to their families.

I am frequently plagued with the question of how a family that easily survived on one salary fifty years ago now requires two to barely make ends meet. For me, the answer is clear. It costs a lot for a woman to work.

Factor in day care costs, increased transportation costs, a business wardrobe, lunches, additional grooming expense, convenience foods, and extras like cleaning ladies just so we can have an hour or two to ourselves, and does it really make sense to encourage this?

I am NOT saying that women shouldn't have careers. I have one myself. I do have a major issue with it being pushed as the only choice.

*sits back and waits for the flames*

Seems to me despite a certain level of ranting (it is an emotive subject!) that fundamentally we are all saying it boils down to the same thing: the right to choose and live by our choice of lifestyle, and to be treated as equal as humans (not necessarily the same).

I said "But providing the individual (woman, in this instance, but men too) is happy and making a choice to be that way, then surely they are entirely living by feminist statutes"

star_catcher said "From an acutely feminist point of view; it would be wrong of you to deny women the *choice* of submissiveness "

vistana said "I'm a sex-positive feminist, with an emphasis on choice. My vrsion of feminism advocates as a wide a range of personal choice as is practical for both men & women. I choose to engage in a BDSM-oriented relationship"

DrkRvn said "Oppression is a forced state and you don't have any control over what is being done. Being a submissive you still have the option of saying a safeword and everything stops or ending the relationship with your Master. You have a choice in what is being done to you and you choose to endure because you enjoy it"

lily says "I am NOT saying that women shouldn't have careers. I have one myself. I do have a major issue with it being pushed as the only choice"

Actually, slave is the only person who has not specifically used the word 'choice' (or a version of it) in her posts, although she does say
"I see my feminist stance more as a belief in equal rights across the board for men and women", and to my mind that includes choice (although I am allowing myself to interpret...).

So it seems to me we all agree, including agreeing that the fanatical side of feminisim (and for me, any other belief) is harmful to the good side of it, and it making the progress it still needs to make (including in allowing men to have sensible rights).

So - I still feel no need to flame, I feel happy that others are in at least partial agreement with me!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by slave327-834-200

:ty for all of your replies, I had a feeling I may not be alone in having questioned this part of myself and as I hoped raising this subject has opened up other, valuable, points of view to me.

I understand and agree with many of the points made regarding the feminist movement and feminists loosing sight of what the "cause" was. I am in no way an active or extreme feminist and I couldn't agree with Moptop more when she said
"I believe that women are still quite often not respected and treated as equals within the workplace, or at home: where they are capable of providing an equal service, they should be treated equally. Where they are capable of better, they should be respected as such. Where they are less capable, they should be able to accept it."

I don't feel I have to justify something that feels so entirely natural to me but this supposed contradiction has been on my mind a while and I wanted to hear others view points on it and still hope to hear more.

I am grateful to be surrounded by such open and intelligent women here and if ever questioned on this in the future I will use the following quote.



;rose;

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I'm just going to nitpick here and say I'm not a woman :) just a cool, down-to-earth, sensitive male. but still intelligent ;)

I'm glad we all share similar opinions as well. goes to show, that it takes a certain amount of intellect to truly admire and cherish BDSM.

I find it sad that most here who are bashing the feminists are so young they don't know what life was like before the "radical feminists" fought for us. Sometimes you have to "take it too far" in order to create change. Modern women owe the feminists a debt of gratitude. Their fight is what allows us a choice now. Even if you choose to be a full-time homemaker, you have the comfort of knowing that if for some reason your husband became abusive, you wouldn't have stay and suffer through it. You would have options. You would get child support. You would have a chance to get a decent paying job other than waitress or housekeeper. Even though fairness has not yet been achieved, let me tell you, things are much much better than they used to be. Let me share a personal experience that occured before the feminists changed our world. I was in a mini- after school "exploring careers" class when I was in the 7th grade which was led by our male principal. We discussed various careers, took aptitude and IQ tests and he advised use about particular careers to consider. I had 140 IQ, had the highest grades in the class, was already taking algebra, scored at a college level in verbal abilities, and expressed how much I enjoyed reading and English class. You know what career the principal advised for me ? A secretary. Now there is nothing wrong with being a secretary, but you can be damn well sure he wasn't advising the boys who had anywhere near my abilities to be secretaries. Pisses me off to this day. Believe me, women's abilities would not have gotten recognized until they were actually allowed into those professions and positions of power where people were forced to see that, yes, women can do just as good a job if not better. Yes, I am a feminist, and I say thank you to those radical feminists who fought the huge fight and changed the world thus giving young women more choices. To get off my rant, I don't see any conflict between being a feminist and a submissive. The choice to submit is mine. That's what being a feminist is all about - having the choice.

fantassy

I find the division among women themselves on this issue fascinating. Overall I tend to agree more with lily's side of the coin more or less. To comment on a vistana quote though:

"I'm really trying to stop ranting here, but I hatehatehate the attitude that all feminists are radicals and think women deserve more than men."

Not all feminists certainly, but it would be hard to dispute a lot of the vocal ones/ones who seem good at getting attention would just as soon kick me in the balls as they would be my equal. And that's an unfortunate waste of what the true message should be. And although perhaps once they were doing good, at this point, I see many "feminist" women copying what I've seen men do for years - form "Old Boys Clubs" where they pat the other sex on the head and say "yes Dear" then dump all over them the moment they aren't looking, except now it's happening both ways. And that's a shame, because it was stupid when we did it, and it's no less stupid when women do it too.

"Equality" is this really big word people like to throw around about a lot of things. Youx sex, sexual orientation, race, and religion being the "big four" I can think of off the top of my head. I've yet to see much real evidence of the word equality becoming more than a theory with any of them really.

Should women be paid less if they are doing the same work? Absolutely not, and I still hold out hope that I'll see the day when it stops being unequal on that front. As long as a woman is capable of doing the work required, we should all be payed the same. I must say though there are certain jobs I'm still not comfortable with women doing. Firefighting is one example, and I'll tell you why. As a 6 foot 4 210 pound man, if I was ever in a housefire and passed out due to smoke inhilation, I still want *another* 6 foot 4 210 pound man to be the one trying to pull my ass out of that building. It's nothing against women, it's just raw physics. (This is somewhat ironic as my last Domme was in her past a female fire fighter and said she intended to return to that work at some point. We had a couple... interesting discussions on this.)

In terms of the actual topic, which was feminism and submission, any feminist preaching that submission is wrong for women (or whatever wording you want to choose) is either: (1) badly misinformed about what we do, which isn't particularly unlikely in our society even now, or (2) A member of the "down with men" group, who make much too much noise for the size they really are. I agree fully with the idea that feminism, as a whole, was supposed to be about the right to choose. And if a woman chooses to submit, who is anyone to tell them they don't have that right in their life. What many "outsiders" to the lifestyle don't grasp is just how empowering being a submissive can be when it's with the right person.

Many of the strongest, most empowered women that I've ever encountered were submissives. I think there's a message there somewhere.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by fantassy

I find it sad that most here who are bashing the feminists are so young they don't know what life was like before the "radical feminists" fought for us. Sometimes you have to "take it too far" in order to create change. Modern women owe the feminists a debt of gratitude. Their fight is what allows us a choice now. Even if you choose to be a full-time homemaker, you have the comfort of knowing that if for some reason your husband became abusive, you wouldn't have stay and suffer through it. You would have options. You would get child support. You would have a chance to get a decent paying job other than waitress or housekeeper. Even though fairness has not yet been achieved, let me tell you, things are much much better than they used to be. Let me share a personal experience that occured before the feminists changed our world. I was in a mini- after school "exploring careers" class when I was in the 7th grade which was led by our male principal. We discussed various careers, took aptitude and IQ tests and he advised use about particular careers to consider. I had 140 IQ, had the highest grades in the class, was already taking algebra, scored at a college level in verbal abilities, and expressed how much I enjoyed reading and English class. You know what career the principal advised for me ? A secretary. Now there is nothing wrong with being a secretary, but you can be damn well sure he wasn't advising the boys who had anywhere near my abilities to be secretaries. Pisses me off to this day. Believe me, women's abilities would not have gotten recognized until they were actually allowed into those professions and positions of power where people were forced to see that, yes, women can do just as good a job if not better. Yes, I am a feminist, and I say thank you to those radical feminists who fought the huge fight and changed the world thus giving young women more choices. To get off my rant, I don't see any conflict between being a feminist and a submissive. The choice to submit is mine. That's what being a feminist is all about - having the choice.

fantassy

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Those were not radical feminists, the radical feminists are the ones who push the cause into extreme, and there is nothing extreme about wanting equality, there is an extreme in wanting superiority. Like Comparing Martin Luther King to the Black Panthers here, one espouses equality through compassion, and the other is preaching superiority through hate.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by fantassy

You know what career the principal advised for me ? A secretary.

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Being an older person myself, I had exactly the same experience (although it was also suggested I could be a teacher). I was and am still outraged. I am very aware and very pleased that so much positive progress has been made, whilst being aware that more is needed - in order for both sides to achieve respect for eachother's abilities and differences, and to be treated fairly by law and by society.

That doesn't change my stance rejecting the fanatical side (of anything, but in this case feminism), which I believe does do the good and necessary side of the continued feminist battle a disservice.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by fantassy

I don't see any conflict between being a feminist and a submissive. The choice to submit is mine. That's what being a feminist is all about - having the choice.

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Yup.

fantassy[/QUOTE]

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Timberwolf

As long as a woman is capable of doing the work required, we should all be payed the same. I must say though there are certain jobs I'm still not comfortable with women doing. Firefighting is one example, and I'll tell you why. As a 6 foot 4 210 pound man, if I was ever in a housefire and passed out due to smoke inhilation, I still want *another* 6 foot 4 210 pound man to be the one trying to pull my ass out of that building. It's nothing against women, it's just raw physics.

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The problem I see with your example, Timberwolf, is not not all men are required to be 6'4" 210 lbs. If women can meet the criteria for the job, they should be allowed to do the job. I do realize some places set lower standards for the women, something I think is wrong. The other problem with excluding women from some jobs is that we end up with "women's jobs" like teaching, waitressing, clerical work and "men's jobs" like construction, factory work, and maintenance. And "women's jobs" are always paid far less than "men's jobs".

fantassy

I have a "man's job." To get it I had to have a high performance in school, pass standardized testing, and sit through panel interviews. Then I had to survive a year of fairly intense training.

I am good at what I do.

And I still stand by all of my previous comments.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by vampyres

Those were not radical feminists, the radical feminists are the ones who push the cause into extreme, and there is nothing extreme about wanting equality, there is an extreme in wanting superiority. Like Comparing Martin Luther King to the Black Panthers here, one espouses equality through compassion, and the other is preaching superiority through hate.

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You don't think Martin Luther King, Jr. was pushing the cause into extreme? Boycotts? Marches? Passive resistence? He could have preached compassion until he was blue in the face and would have achieved nothing if he hadn't organized action. Believe me, the Southern Conservative White Men perceived MLK, Jr. as a radical. Most feminists do not hate men - they just hate the way some men use the system against women.

fantassy

fantassy

"The problem I see with your example, Timberwolf, is not not all men are required to be 6'4" 210 lbs. "

I think you know full well the numbers themselves were't the point of the example.

I'm also baffled by when teaching became "women's work".

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Timberwolf

Should women be paid less if they are doing the same work? Absolutely not, and I still hold out hope that I'll see the day when it stops being unequal on that front. As long as a woman is capable of doing the work required, we should all be payed the same. I must say though there are certain jobs I'm still not comfortable with women doing. Firefighting is one example, and I'll tell you why. As a 6 foot 4 210 pound man, if I was ever in a housefire and passed out due to smoke inhilation, I still want *another* 6 foot 4 210 pound man to be the one trying to pull my ass out of that building. It's nothing against women, it's just raw physics. (This is somewhat ironic as my last Domme was in her past a female fire fighter and said she intended to return to that work at some point. We had a couple... interesting discussions on this.)

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Really depends on the Woman actually, my mother for example is a big Woman, I have seen her on construction sites and when my parents did custom falling together lift stuff that alot of men on that crew couldn't, now me on the other hand, I wouldn't even want to try it, or half the things my mom does (But I am tiny) I don't think it needs to be a matter of sex it should be a matter of who can meet the job requirements.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by fantassy

You don't think Martin Luther King, Jr. was pushing the cause into extreme? Boycotts? Marches? Passive resistence? He could have preached compassion until he was blue in the face and would have achieved nothing if he hadn't organized action. Believe me, the Southern Conservative White Men perceived MLK, Jr. as a radical. Most feminists do not hate men - they just hate the way some men use the system against women.

fantassy

fantassy

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no, martin luther king jr. was not at all extreme. He had the right idea, and was pretty damn smart. Extreme would be, as vampyres said, the black panthers or even Malcolm X (yeah, I'll go there). Martin Luther King also practiced in a way that tried to get things across to both sides of the arguments; the blacks AND the whites. His vision was for both to live in harmony, and it worked. along with african americans, a lot of white people showed up for his talks and a lot of them liked what he had to say.

with radical feminism, they're not appealing to both sides; only to other radicals. I may be young, but I can clearly see the world around me. I havn't suffered gender discrimination, but i have suffered discrimination of other sorts, and I can safely say that I understand the way in which that works, and ways to remedy it. In my own little personal movement against sexual orientation discrimination, I've witnessed the current efforts being made in it, and it's so obvious to me how they're going about it totally the wrong way. Much of the same applies to feminism as well.

@vampyre: I totally agree, it's all about the requirements for the job. unfortunately, the real world doesn't seem to like working that way :(

Quote:

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Originally Posted by fantassy

You don't think Martin Luther King, Jr. was pushing the cause into extreme? Boycotts? Marches? Passive resistence? He could have preached compassion until he was blue in the face and would have achieved nothing if he hadn't organized action. Believe me, the Southern Conservative White Men perceived MLK, Jr. as a radical. Most feminists do not hate men - they just hate the way some men use the system against women.

fantassy

fantassy

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There is Nothing Extreme about peaceful protests sorry, this is after all America where that is one of our rights (Unless you consider being an American pretty extreme, one of those little things along with freedom of Speech we have) Militant Feminists are hatefull and are just as bad as the Black Panthers, and the KKK, if you haven't caught these ones here are some quotes for you (I dunno sounds like hate Speech to me) These are the Feminists of today, this is their goals of today, and this is why I refuse to call myself a feminist, I will not be party to this nonsense.

"Marriage is an institution developed from rape as a practice."
"The penis must embody the violence of the male in order for him to be male. Violence is male; the male is the penis; violence is the penis..."
Andrea Dworkin, Pornography

"Men's need to dominate women may be based in their own sense of marginality or emptiness."
"While men strut and fret their hour upon the stage, shout in bars and sports arenas, thump their chests or show their profiles in the legislatures, and explode incredible weapons in an endless contest for status, an obsessive quest for symbolic 'proof' of their superiority, women quietly keep the world going."
"He can beat or kill the woman he claims to love; he can rape women, whether mate, acquaintance, or stranger; he can rape or sexually molest his daughters, nieces, stepchildren, or the children of a woman he claims to love. The vast majority of men in the world do one or more of the above."
Marilyn French, the War Against Women

"I believe that women have a capacity for understanding and compassion which man structurally does not have, does not have it because he cannot have it. He's just incapable of it."
Barbara Jordan

"Men who are unjustly accused of rape can sometimes gain from the experience."
Catherine Comin

"Men's sexuality is mean and violent, and men so powerful that they can 'reach WITHIN women to f%*k/construct us from the inside out.' Satan-like, men possess women, making their wicked fantasies and desires women's own. A woman who has sex with a man, therefore, does so against her will, 'even if she does not feel forced.'"
"I feel what they feel: man-hating, that volatile admixture of pity, contempt, disgust, envy, alienation, fear, and rage at men. It is hatred not only for the anonymous man who makes sucking noises on the street, not only for the rapist or the judge who acquits him, but for what the Greeks called philo-aphilos, 'hate in love,' for the men women share their lives with--husbands, lovers, friends, fathers, brothers, sons, coworkers."
Judith Levine

"Life in this society being, at best, an utter bore and no aspect of society being at all relevant to women, there remains to civic-minded, responsible, thrill-seeking females only to overthrow the government, eliminate the money system, institute complete automation, and destroy the male sex."
"To call a man an animal is to flatter him; he's a machine, a walking dildo."
Valerie Solanas

"The male is a domestic animal which, if treated with firmness...can be trained to do most things."
Jilly Cooper

"I feel that 'man-hating' is an honorable and viable political act, that the oppressed have a right to class-hatred against the class that is oppressing them."
Robin Morgan

"And if the professional rapist is to be separated from the average dominant heterosexual (male), it may be mainly a quantitative difference."
Susan Griffin

"MALE:...represents a variant of or deviation from the category of female. The first males were mutants...the male sex represents a degeneration and deformity of the female."
"MAN:...an obsolete life form... an ordinary creature who needs to be watched...a contradictory baby-man..."
'A feminist Dictionary', ed. Kramarae and Triechler

"In general, most men are really selfish. They see only one side of the story. Most women have the ability to see two sides of things...I think I am superior to all men. I think women are superior to men but society doesn't allow them to feel that way. I think most women feel subservient to men. Women really do have all the brains and all the power."
Joanna Angel

This all is getting rather away from the topic. Which was feminism and submission, not a run down of the end of the gene pool that got pissed in.

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Originally Posted by Timberwolf

This all is getting rather away from the topic. Which was feminism and submission, not a run down of the end of the gene pool that got pissed in.

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Ahaha I have struck yet again, thread derail. Sorry

I'm not saying MLK's methods and speeches were bad or wrong , or would even be considered extreme in today's society. But at that time in history, in those circumstances, they were considered radical and extreme. He wasn't assassinated because he was mainstream.

But I'll shut up for now. I've highjacked this thread for long enough.

fantassy

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Originally Posted by Timberwolf

"The problem I see with your example, Timberwolf, is not not all men are required to be 6'4" 210 lbs. "

I think you know full well the numbers themselves were't the point of the example.

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Which, frankly, is why the example sucked. Because that sort of thing should be about the numbers. No one should be a firefighter if they can't carry someone out of a burning building. Many women can't, and many men can't either. That there are more men who can than women who can is entirely irrelevant when it comes to deciding whether or not to hire a particular person.

wow this threaD HAS created a lot of discussion ..
and hear is another thought ..
i choose to be with people i like and who like being with me ..
i have no desired to be with a person who does not wish to be in my company .. also i do not wish to converse with a person whose sole ambition is to change my perception of the relationship between men and women ..
if my perception is different from your then move on ..
i hire people in my business because i want them to be part of a team .. a tema player .. i have a university degree .. but i see that education is the lowest of my requirements .. i can teach an average person the job if they are willing to learn .. it is more important that each person feels like they would be willing to go to war with the people they work will .. personality attitudes .. feminism .. etc .. are part of the personality make up of a person .. and if they don't fit with the group then i don't want to hire them .. like i said .. if you don't want to be in my company then move on ... or i will ..

"Which, frankly, is why the example sucked. Because that sort of thing should be about the numbers. No one should be a firefighter if they can't carry someone out of a burning building. Many women can't, and many men can't either. "

I suppose I made the foolish assumption that people can add 2 and 2 for themselves and didn't need it explained to them that I don't approve of just any man being a firefighter because he's a man.

I will make sure to point out the obvious more often in the future.

lol, it's always a bit funny when a thread gets this out of hand. I think it's okay to derail it a little bit now, since the OP has gotten peace of mind from the posts on the first page.

fantassy; I'm not trying to debate whether MLK's tactics were "extreme", but instead, I'm arguing in favor of the way he went about it. Everything he did had the purpose of uniting people, bringing them together, and being at peace. It even worked; like I said, a lot of white people as well as black came to his talks and supported him. That's why it worked.

Feminism completely disregards this. It was good for making women aware of themselves, but most women who noticed feminism did not follow it radically. After it fulfilled its purpose of awakening women, radical feminism was supposed to die a graceful death. But instead, it keeps on pushing. It's another case of riding the dead horse. The purpose of a controversial movement is to ellicit self-awareness in the people. Any such successful movement in the past has shown that. When a movement begins to cause complete social unrest, it's not achieving anything anymore. Unless the goal of radical feminism is to throw the world into total chaos, it's useless now. I won't argue, however, that it didn't benefit us, because it did. But now, it's hurting us.

The thing with feminism is, everyone already knows what the problem is, with gender conflicts... or at least I hope they do. Now, smaller, more subtle steps have to be taken to fix the problem...and what is the problem? IMHO, the problem is the amount of pressure on females from their surrounding environments. Several examples;

-When they're little, girls get given dolls and little houses to play with...whereas boys get building blocks, and more constructive toys that help them develop mental skills. Unfortunately, this still happens a lot today
-Girls have to wear clean, pretty dresses. Boys can wear almost whatever they want, whenever they want.
-Girls have to learn social etiquette, cleanliness, mannerisms. Boys get a lot of leniency in this, most of the time (not looking to start a war along the lines of "I'm a male, and MY parents made me do all that)
-Girls have to learn how to wear make-up, take care of their hair, keep their skin looking pretty, get a fashion sense. Boys? I don't think so.
-Girls have a lot of pressure to "put out", whereas for a majority of guys (I'm thinking a high school setting here), it's just a sport.

If girls deviate from that consciously, they get ridiculed, put in their place, and forced into misery and possibly social isolation...I've seen that happen with a couple of girls, and my guess is that after they recover from their train wreck, they'll quiet down and join the majority again. So, I'm not saying that girls should never wear makeup or shave their legs or try to look good; because yeah, it feels good to dress up and look fabulous, and it really is fun sometimes. But on the other side of it, wouldn't it be nice to be more relaxed and be able to go out in public everyday without worrying about your makeup or your hair or how you look in general? But I really can't think of a way to ease the pressure off on a large scale. So I'm stumped. But I do know that radical feminism is not working anymore, because it's separating the people who want better treatment for women from the rest of society.

It's a similar situation with the fight for rights of gay/bi/transsexuals. They're also separating gays/bi/trans from the people who they want to be accepted by. But that's a whole another topic, and I've ranted long enough :)

The fight for equal rights. It's been a long one, and one not either won or lost yet. For anyone, not just the feminists, but all those who feel they are a minority. What we fail to see, IMO, is that we are all part of different minorities. Men are a minority. It's a proven fact that, unless you employ gender-controlling birth as in China, it's born more women/girls than men/boys. Women are a minority in the work-place because they are the ones who can continue the human race, and more often than men take care of the children. Gays are a minority because it is a taboo, and somewhat against the laws of nature. On that I will now equivocate: Gay sex is not intended for breeding of another specimen of the race/species. However, nature is abundent with homosexuality, and researchers can't say for sure why. Since it does not breed another specimen, and the body is made for it to be a male/female interaction to breed, it goes against the intent of the reproductive organs, thus not being in accordance with the "laws" of nature.
Blacks/african descendents are a minority in many countries around the world simply because their "native" place are in Africa. The build-up of them are better suited for a warmer climate than most countries are. Transsexuals are a minority because the difference between being a trans and a heterosexual is too small to happen very often.

I may now have angered almost anyone in the whole world with this, but my point is that we have to realise we are all a minority. We may be in accordance with the majority on some issues, but things that really define us, such as BDSM, feminism, skin-colour (I'm not a racist), interests, etc, makes us a minority. Within the minority, are several other minorities, just look at ourselves. Some are submissive, some are dominant, some like ropes, some like paddles, some like whips, some like watersports, some like scat, some like cosplay, some like nude, some like sensory-depravation, some like sensory overload.
I believe, IMO, that until we realise that we are all part of minorities, making up the big majority, and respect the minorities for what they are, without passing judgement, the human race will always be fighting over difference of opinions.

To the original question asked: Being a feminist and a submissive doesn't clash. It symbolises my statement. You are saying you are part of two minorities, of which none has "statements", "rules" or "guidelines" prohibiting the other. Be proud of being of both minorities and think about what other minorities you belong to. Being part of a minority isn't to be feared, but rather cheered, as it is what makes up our life.

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Originally Posted by Timberwolf

I suppose I made the foolish assumption that people can add 2 and 2 for themselves and didn't need it explained to them that I don't approve of just any man being a firefighter because he's a man.

I will make sure to point out the obvious more often in the future.

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*facepalm*

The point is that you shouldn't disapprove of a woman being a firefighter because she's a woman, because some women can carry heavy people around. I only mentioned men to try and illustrate that point.

Personally, i don't think that feminism has anything to do with submission.
If you're submissive, it's part of who you are, just like having blue eyes or brown hair.

IMO, the feminist movement was about choice. A woman's choice to do what she wanted, whether it was about choices concerning her body, the right to vote or to stay home and raise her children.

If it is your choice to submit to a Master or a Mistress, then who really cares what society dictates. Submission is a very big part of me and i never struggle with it (well not anymore lol). It's my choice.

So, isn't that what feminism was about, choices...a woman's choice to choose.

Ok, i'll stop right there before i go off on my crazy greek girl rants. Don't want to get an email from slave saying "WTF?" LOL.

Great thread, my friend:)

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Originally Posted by frankee

Personally, i don't think that feminism has anything to do with submission.
If you're submissive, it's part of who you are, just like having blue eyes or brown hair.

IMO, the feminist movement was about choice. A woman's choice to do what she wanted, whether it was about choices concerning her body, the right to vote or to stay home and raise her children.

If it is your choice to submit to a Master or a Mistress, then who really cares what society dictates. Submission is a very big part of me and i never struggle with it (well not anymore lol). It's my choice.

So, isn't that what feminism was about, choices...a woman's choice to choose.

Ok, i'll stop right there before i go off on my crazy greek girl rants. Don't want to get an email from slave saying "WTF?" LOL.

Great thread, my friend:)

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Thank you for posting these words, I was going to say about the exact same thing myself, and seing that I`m short of time I`ll just say:

I`ll second your words, frankee.

I have come across people bashing me for being a submissive And a feminist... I dont really have any comment. Its my choice.

I apologise to all of you posting in this thread. I should read all the posts here, cause the topic is important. But a lot has been said, and I couldnt manage all.

I want to say that feminism still is needed and important.
Discrimenating in any form is wrong. Wether its against women, men, gay`s or christians.

Thanks for this thread and all its posters. Be polite and respect eachothers opinions, and all is good. We cant and shouldnt agree on all and everything.

Feminisim to me is about equality, choice, and recognition. It would take pages to elaborate further, and I leave that to others.

Submission isn't taken it is given, it is a choice you make, a gift you choose to give. You have as many rights (and in some ways more as you are able to set your own limits) in the relationship as does the dominant partner.

Why do we insist on a label. Men don't say they are masculinists. I personally just like to use the labels to get a rise out of people, push thier buttons, stir the pot so to speak. I was called a Fema-Nazi once (ok more than once...in fact still get called that quite a bit) and rather liked it. There is still much to be done in the name of the "feminist movement" but bringing feminisim into the bedroom, playroom, dungeon or wherever you play is not where it is needed.

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Originally Posted by vampyres

Those were not radical feminists, the radical feminists are the ones who push the cause into extreme, and there is nothing extreme about wanting equality, there is an extreme in wanting superiority. Like Comparing Martin Luther King to the Black Panthers here, one espouses equality through compassion, and the other is preaching superiority through hate.

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The term "radical feminist" does not refer to a women who thinks women are superior to men. That would be a Female Supremacist.

A radical feminist is someone who believes that changes on a legal level are not enough to achieve true gender equality, and that in order for people to live without the oppressive nature of a gender heirarchy, we must undertake a mission of cultural change as well.

I am a radical feminist and a submissive woman. When my fiance and I decided to explore this side of our relationship, we agreed on certain boundaries: our BDSM play will never interfere with my family life (I am close with my parents and brother), my education or my career. He has been good about holding to this agreement -- for instance, he may punish me by making me wear certain clothes, but I never have to wear them to school or work-related events, or around my family. I am a professional stage performer, so we can't do anything that's going to leave marks on parts of my body that will be exposed, etc.

To be honest, for all of my sexually-mature life I have had fantasies about situations that would not be compatible with my worldview were they to happen in real life. But for me, it's quite enough to maintain the life I have with my husband, engage in role-playing with him in private, and enjoy some "alone time" with my more extreme fantasies.

It is a little disappointing to me that so few fellow posters seem to share my social views. But then, sharing a lifestyle choice doesn't mean that we have to agree on everything. My dom has a Masters' (appropriately enough:) ) in English and is well-versed in gender theory and feminist criticism, and considers himself a feminist. If he weren't, well, things would be very different.

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Originally Posted by Hime

It is a little disappointing to me that so few fellow posters seem to share my social views.

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Maybe we should start a club - SDF Subs and Doms for Feminism

fantassy

Too many clubs here as it is... regardless of ones social views.

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Originally Posted by Ozme52

Too many clubs here as it is... regardless of ones social views.

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LOl!

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Originally Posted by lily26

All that being said, I am a strong woman, well educated, and have a good, professional job. I am also a sub. The crazier my day at work, the more I need to submit when I get home. It is my release, my centre, and my driving force.

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After reading this thread, I go back to the original question & I agree with what lily said. Frankee stated this very well, too. Submission is part of who I am and keeps me grounded.

People who know me wouldn't say, "there's a feminist" just as much as they don't know me as a submissive... instead, they see me (I hope) as a strong, independent, smart woman who is also open, tolerant, well-balanced (most of the time!!) and nurturing.

This has been an interesting thread to read & I'm glad to be a part of a community that embraces all points of view. :)