the action of submission and what we think

I have a question to pose to everyone about submission. I was told the other day if I was truly submissive that would include my thoughts as well. That the times that i am nice and comfy in bed and Master is coming back, I should want to jump to my knees. I would not think of telling Him no! or even consider sticking my tongue out when He gives me commands.

to me submission is also in the act of submitting even when i don't really feel like it. its not just the days i fly to my knees because I can't wait for Him to find me there, its the days its hard to do and I do it anyway. I believe its that I may think of telling Him go get your own water, but I get up and get it because He told me to.

thoughts?

If anyone tells you that your version of submission is wrong, you know they haven't a clue.

Submission, and all it entails is exactly what the two people involved say it is. So if one person views it as the porno version, and lives it. Good for them. If another views submission as making sure to wear the right socks for someone, and that's all it includes, then that is submission for them. There are no right or wrong answers. Those that say there are, are wrong.

So if how you and your partner are doing D/s M/s S&M B&D or any other combination, and it makes you happy. Then what anyone else says shouldn't matter.

Thanks ID, I don't think they were saying I am wrong...just that if I thought things that aren't 100% percent submissive while in the act of submitting that I wasn't truly submitting. To me its like the idea that bravery is something you do even though your afraid, so submission is also something you do even when you just don't feel it and therefore is submitting also.....

Trust me, I see things the way you do. It just aggravates me when people say something is done wrong within this lifestyle.

I agree... except for the part where ID spells his name with leading and trailing underscores... (that's just wrong. ;) )

Actually, I think that's (what you describe) part and parcel to submission for you. And as ID points out, there is no right or wrong way to express your submission.

We all feel high or low, enthusiastic or not, about everything we may undertake in life. But when you obey and serve irrespective of your momentary feelings merely because you feel it is your duty to give what you promised, it is that very act the both empowers and enraptures your dominant.




IMO ;)

thanks for the feedback! I have actually pointed this person to this website not this thread specific so much just here, its been a helpful place for me to learn and ask questions like this one. I appreciate the feedback.

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Originally Posted by Ozme52

I agree... except for the part where ID spells his name with leading and trailing underscores... (that's just wrong. ;) )

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There was character minimum, and my last nick was just too long. :P

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Originally Posted by 13'sbadkitty

I have a question to pose to everyone about submission. I was told the other day if I was truly submissive that would include my thoughts as well. That the times that i am nice and comfy in bed and Master is coming back, I should want to jump to my knees. I would not think of telling Him no! or even consider sticking my tongue out when He gives me commands.

to me submission is also in the act of submitting even when i don't really feel like it. its not just the days i fly to my knees because I can't wait for Him to find me there, its the days its hard to do and I do it anyway. I believe its that I may think of telling Him go get your own water, but I get up and get it because He told me to.

thoughts?

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It seems to me that you are asking whether the act of submission is the same as feeling submissive. To me, no. The act if you do not have the feeling I would call obedience. To obey even when your feelings are not in it, is to submit to another's will. The act is there, the feeling is different.

One simply cannot feel submissive every waking moment of one's life.

well said for how i experience my submission...i live all the time what I can not feel all the time.

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Originally Posted by Ozme52

I agree... except for the part where ID spells his name with leading and trailing underscores... (that's just wrong. ;) )

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Wiz, you just break me up! ROTFLMAO!

But I agree...submission to another is as personal as the relationship. No relationship is identical to another. As long as the partners respect each other and appreciate that respect; other peoples' opinions are just that.

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Originally Posted by Snark

No relationship is identical to another. As long as the partners respect each other and appreciate that respect; other peoples' opinions are just that.

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Exactly so.

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Originally Posted by 13'sbadkitty

I have a question to pose to everyone about submission. I was told the other day if I was truly submissive that would include my thoughts as well. That the times that i am nice and comfy in bed and Master is coming back, I should want to jump to my knees. I would not think of telling Him no! or even consider sticking my tongue out when He gives me commands.

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I like bratty subs, they offer constant opportunities to whip them back into line. More seriously, I like to know my sub still has a mind of her own: it makes her submission so much more valuable. As I've said elsewhere, if I want mindless devotion, I'll get a spaniel.

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to me submission is also in the act of submitting even when i don't really feel like it. its not just the days i fly to my knees because I can't wait for Him to find me there, its the days its hard to do and I do it anyway. I believe its that I may think of telling Him go get your own water, but I get up and get it because He told me to.

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That works for this Dom.

I think this is a "to each their own" topic. At times I feel like telling my Master to leave me alone for the minute and let me live my vanilla life. However, I promised complete devotion and submission to Him.

I had posted a thread about struggling with being a submissive vs. bring a lover. A few people had suggested that I set boundaries on when I am in that submissive role. For instance, saying Sundays are my day off. This allows you to breathe a little while still respecting the M/s relationship.

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Originally Posted by scarlet_85

I had posted a thread about struggling with being a submissive vs. bring a lover. A few people had suggested that I set boundaries on when I am in that submissive role. For instance, saying Sundays are my day off. This allows you to breathe a little while still respecting the M/s relationship.

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Sounds reasonable to me. If you (generic) keep pushing yourself too much, you might end up, over time, being burnt out of the whole relationship.

It reminds me of what is said, that "talking is different than walking".
By substituting "talking" with "thinking" one can be led to suggest that a person may think as a slave or feel as a slave but that does not mean this person would be able or willing to "jump into the knees" as soon as Master enters the scene.

On the other hand, if one does not feel or think like a slave all the time, then how can one obey when not in obedience mood? How can one feel the Dominant's will to be obeyed and comply to this will, if not inclined to do so by inner feelings and thoughts?

My understanding is that acts of submission like obeying against own will or contarty to call of the moment to do something else are based on an inner, lets say rule, that gets internalised in the submissive person, slowly, and creates or sustains the need to obey and serve.

Maybe, i am wrong, YMMV. But that's how i feel it.

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Originally Posted by Ozme52

But when you obey and serve irrespective of your momentary feelings merely because you feel it is your duty to give what you promised, it is that very act the both empowers and enraptures your dominant.

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It makes stronger the submissive person as well but maybe it is the acceptance of the act by the dominant that creates this effect :)

I agree with Oz: leading underscores in names are weird.

On the other topic in the thread, I think the person telling you that you should always be thinking submissive along with acting submissive is dead wrong. If there's virtue in submission then it comes like all virtue: by ignoring temptation. Without temptation virtue is somewhere between meaningless and impossible.

In the Bible was Jesus considered virtuous just because he was named Jesus? No, it was because the Devil tempted him with all the possible earthly powers and delights he could think of, and Jesus remained obedient to his faith in the face of it. I'm not even religious and that story still rings true to me. If there's a never a voice inside telling you to be bad then there's no victory in being good.

A good dom would, I think, encourage you to tell him about the times when you were tempted to disobey so that he could reward you for your virtue of obeying despite that temptation, and help you find ways to minimize temptation in the future.

.02

One could also look at it like having courage.

To be courageous doesnt nessesarally mean that one is not also affriad, its to do what one needs to do despite being afriad is it not?

So too with submission sometimes.

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Originally Posted by Austerus

If there's virtue in submission then it comes like all virtue: by ignoring temptation. Without temptation virtue is somewhere between meaningless and impossible.

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Made me think a lot, thoughts that had thorns for me. Self critique. Gave bad score to myself. So, i abandoned the exercise in a quick and dirty way.

If there is one thing i am not fond of in BDSM it is this kind of dilemmas or pseudo dilemmas that appear very real, however, the moment they arise.

I do not like to resist temptation. I love to indulge to the Dominant's pressure to do or not to do X, to be or not to be Y.

This can be because temptation may only be imaginary, so that resisting it or indulging to it may not have any impact, anyway. The Dominant's pressure, being an order, or a rule, or even a a vague feeling that He is going to dislike something is something very real for a submissive and with original impact on joy or other things.

Let me try to reword my point. Imagine a dominant could put a chip in your head that would ensure absolute, instant obedience to any order he gave you. Which would have more value: your submission with or without the chip in your head?

I argue that your submission in the case of forced obedience has no value, because there is no choice. True value comes from making hard decisions day in and day out, a thousand little moments when you choose to put someone else before yourself despite a desire to stay warm, comfy, asleep, sitting, whatever. A good dominant will know that you would rather stay under the blankets, stay in the comfy chair, eat your meal without waiting for him, or take the tv remote.

He'll value you specifically because the world is full of temptations and comforts that you choose to ignore to serve him. If those temptations weren't there, or if you had no choice, then what value would your submission add to the relationship?

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Let me try to reword my point. Imagine a dominant could put a chip in your head that would ensure absolute, instant obedience to any order he gave you. Which would have more value: your submission with or without the chip in your head?

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I'd say we're right back to the "to each his own" point with this. Value is determined by the consumer, in this case the Dom. Perhaps the Dom doesn't really care how or why tasks are accomplished so much as he cares that they are indeed accomplished. For some people, it's not the motive at all that's valuable, it's the end result.

I'm inclined to agree with you on a level of personal taste and priority, but phrases like "true value" or "a good Dominant" are simply not universal.

Argh you're right that I shouldn't have used the "good dominant" phrase, that was silly of me, but I'll leave it there now for continuity. On the rest I wasn't talking about the value of service or a person per se, but rather specifically the act of submission. If there is no choice made then I think it's hard to even call it 'submission,' and for a choice to be made there has to be an alternative that is discarded.

Lets not forget that its a two way street as well...if both partners; regardless of their titular distinctions, are not getting what they want from the relationship...one or both are bound to become rather unhappy with said arrangment and wont alleviate that condition until seeking seperate ways.

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Originally Posted by denuseri

Lets not forget that its a two way street as well...if both partners; regardless of their titular distinctions, are not getting what they want from the relationship...one or both are bound to become rather unhappy with said arrangment and wont alleviate that condition until seeking seperate ways.

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Agreed. I think a D/s relationship requires just as much, if not more, effort as a vanilla relationship. With all parties involved there are boundaries, limitations, dislikes... and as said so many times before, each relationship will mold into a unique situation that works best for those involved. I don't want beat a dead horse, but communication is key. The bond between Master and slave is absolutely beautiful in my opinion. With the utmost amount of respect on both ends.

To my understanding, submission is a choise. i think it is a choise once, or at least not frequently, because there will probably be times where it may be boring, difficult and exhausting, but then one knows inside her that it would be a pity to let submission go because of the hard moments.

i am not sure that there is any special virtue in submission however a profound and unique joy may be found both internally and in the D/s relationship when the times of resistance are over.

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Originally Posted by scarlet_85

Agreed. I think a D/s relationship requires just as much, if not more, effort as a vanilla relationship. With all parties involved there are boundaries, limitations, dislikes... and as said so many times before, each relationship will mold into a unique situation that works best for those involved. I don't want beat a dead horse, but communication is key. The bond between Master and slave is absolutely beautiful in my opinion. With the utmost amount of respect on both ends.

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I could not agree more with your thoughts scarlet. Communication from the start will be the key to the relationship. your submission is exactly that...YOURS. SO what you submit may be different than what I submit. Regardless of how you submit, it requires strength and a real sense of self. There is no clear cut definition of what makes anyone a 'real' submissive.

~Master's muse~

so random thought, each person is different, my way of being a submissive? im a brat, i like it that way, i am happy and excited to submit, but you need to force it on me, it needs to be... more than just me being passive. i act out to force the dominance. mostly because i usually end up dating non-Dominant people and end up teaching e.e