Why do many BDSM people look down on switches?

Recently the question was put here whether being a switch makes for a better dom/sub.

I would think so in many cases, because you know a lot about what things feel like on the other side of the fence. But try to pose that question on your average bdsm list, and you are likely to get less than respectful answers..

I myself have pondered these comments:

If you both submit and dominate, then you cannot be really serious/devoted in either.

Or that a Dom or sub is born that way, and that is just the way it is.

Or that doms/subs never ever switch.

Or they get in the way of each other in a practical way.

I would be very interested in hearing what others have to say here, as I myself have some problems with getting things straightened out in my head.

Well some people (not me) believe that if you are a Dom you are a Dom and if you are a Sub you are a Sub.

I think it just comes down to the idea that, if someone "submits" to someone and gives up control then they must be in that "mindset" and I *guess* people feel if that is the case then they can't get into the "Dominant" mindset.

^-Ramblings by me and reflect my view on the above

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Originally Posted by Mr. Tomcat

Well some people (not me) believe that if you are a Dom you are a Dom and if you are a Sub you are a Sub.

I think it just comes down to the idea that, if someone "submits" to someone and gives up control then they must be in that "mindset" and I *guess* people feel if that is the case then they can't get into the "Dominant" mindset.

^-Ramblings by me and reflect my view on the above

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Yes, I guess so, but it is confusing, isn't it? I mean, how to explain us? What do they think happens?

Maybe it would be more practical to ask people here?
How far does your submission go - if you are submissive. Devotion? Need to please? Other?
How far does your need to dominate go - if you like to dominate. Own? 24/7? Bedroom? Some people but not others?

Are your needs different than above?

Things have changed for me, but in my time I have been far out on both ends: At some point really really wanted to be owned. At some later point really really wanted to own. And some overlap, which I found confusing.

I see people who shift effortlessly and naturally, and I can only hope to learn from that.

Comments?

Thir, I don't have any experience of this but I found your question interesting and it made me wonder...

Could it have something to do with the extravagant claims you sometimes hear from both subs and doms about how they were born to their mindset, they've always knows they were definitely one or the other, they're sub or dom to their very heart and soul, it fulfils/completes them to their core, etc etc (which may be true but that's the orthodoxy it's so easy for any old sub or dom to tag themselves with) - so when there are those few who claim to be able to genuinely and meaningfully switch between the sacred engrained positions, it rather seems to undercut the deadly earnestness of these positions, and nobody likes to be 'cut down to size.'.

Am I on to something here, do you think?

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Originally Posted by Pearlgem

Thir, I don't have any experience of this but I found your question interesting and it made me wonder...

Could it have something to do with the extravagant claims you sometimes hear from both subs and doms about how they were born to their mindset, they've always knows they were definitely one or the other, they're sub or dom to their very heart and soul, it fulfils/completes them to their core, etc etc (which may be true but that's the orthodoxy it's so easy for any old sub or dom to tag themselves with) - so when there are those few who claim to be able to genuinely and meaningfully switch between the sacred engrained positions, it rather seems to undercut the deadly earnestness of these positions, and nobody likes to be 'cut down to size.'.

Am I on to something here, do you think?

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I think you might well be, judging from the sometimes really wild protests from both sides when this question is discussed. And the fact that many questionaires (as in new members) do not have the option of 'switch'. And very few define themselves as such.

My personal experience from clubs and camps and the like is that it takes trust before anyone will talk about anything other than their 'official' stand.

But why???

As a sub, I view the BDSM world though sub eyes. Maybe I attached that title onto myself too readily, but it seemed, and seems, to fit. If I see myself as sub first and foremost then that means I don't think like a dom. I can't. As least maybe I assume, since I call myself a sub, that I can't think like a dom.

I admit to the prejudice you complain about, Thir. I don't really understand switching. But I don't understand doms either, not the way they understand themselves. Being sub or dom is a bit, to my mind, like being either male or female. You can relate to a certain extent, be complementary to, the opposite, but you can never be the other. Except, witnessing the recent post on 'gender', I realise even gender perceptions are by no means as fixed as is widely supposed.

I would certainly appreciate understanding better what makes switches tick. Maybe they have to speak out, educate the rest of us out of our cosy sub/dom cocoons. Maybe it's all more role play than we give credit for. Maybe we all have 'switchability' lurking inside us .

I think W/we A/all, Dominant, sub, slave, vanilla, liberal, conservative, shrink, etc, etc, etc, wish the world to be a very “clean” place. There is a comfort when things are as W/we wish them to be. Blue is blue. Green is green. And, O/our vegetables never get into O/our meat. Regretfully, the world is not such a place. I personally would not knowingly be Dom to a switch. Not because they have no “right” to be what they wish to be, nor, that it is My place to judge there choices, it is merely the fact that they will not completely be what I wish them to be for as long as I wish them to be that. My world is “cloudy” enough without adding another set of allusions in front of Me. So, it is My preference not to “use” them but not because there is something “wrong” with them. Secondly, I am secure in My Dominance and have no desire to be bottom to A/anyone. It is that same security that allows Me to shrug My shoulders and bless the day that W/we were all created differently and those differences are the spice of life.

Do not be confused. Take your bewilderment as an opportunity to explore life. Perhaps one day you will be One or the other but until that time take what life gives you and live it to the fullest. Worry not what O/others say, nor, how they want to apply their view of how the world should be. If the world was as “pure” as the “purists” wish it were you'd have something to worry about. Luckily, it isn't, and, rather than this “uncleanliness” threatening My personal belief system and personal security it only adds to My self-awareness and values..

The only time I "look down" on a switch is when he/she is shorter than myself. *smiles*

I'm pulling quotes out of this as I go so if you see yours great!

"As least maybe I assume, since I call myself a sub, that I can't think like a Dom."

I think this is the most brilliant thing I have red on this topic!

I have the word "slave" tattooed on my back. After YEARS of being a sub i decided that is were i was at. That's what i was. I was a sub, i wasn't going to change that and the idea of being Dom was ICKY and uncomfortable.

It took a set of circumstances to make me come to terms with the fact that i also liked being Dom. Though i still struggle with a lot of my original feelings of "Dom inadequacy" but i was able to hit the ground running as a Dom because of my previous sub life.

When i read this

"If you both submit and dominate, then you cannot be really serious/devoted in either.

Or that a Dom or sub is born that way, and that is just the way it is.

Or that doms/subs never ever switch.

Or they get in the way of each other in a practical way."

It reminds me very much of the ways that people think of gay relationships and honestly it's just not understanding.

I've been there. I can understand why people think this way but they're missing a few points. The truth is they lack the ability to comprehend another persons life style. They ask their perfectly valid questions (to them) but no one can make someone understand a feeling.

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Originally Posted by Pearlgem

I would certainly appreciate understanding better what makes switches tick. Maybe they have to speak out, educate the rest of us out of our cosy sub/dom cocoons. Maybe it's all more role play than we give credit for. Maybe we all have 'switchability' lurking inside us .

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Thank you for having an open mind about this.

My own guess from too many years of experience is that I am sure that some are one-sided indeed, but that it may be a minority. I remember one camp I was on in which all but one single person described themselves as changing in some way or other. And I got to believe that it takes a safe forum to say these things, because so many one-siders are ready to pounce if you talk about switching.

Of course it doesn't matter at all how many or how few are doing what. What matters is that it would be nice if we all confined ourselves to defining ourselves, and letting others do the same. After all, only the person hirself knows what they are or aren't.

I have often thought that the rhetoric from some people about how you have to be one or the other points towards people who are most comfortable with a very clearly defined identity. And for that reason I am baffled that those same people cannot seem to understand that (some) switchers also want to identify themselves without 'helpful' advice , and that no one but we can do this.

In my case I have to find myself anew, and I am missing expressions for what I think I am. Labels can surely be a pest and cause much hurt feelings and heated debate, but they can also be very inspirational indeed and show the width and depth of the enormous area of bdsm.

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Originally Posted by Timoty

I think W/we A/all, Dominant, sub, slave, vanilla, liberal, conservative, shrink, etc, etc, etc, wish the world to be a very “clean” place. There is a comfort when things are as W/we wish them to be. Blue is blue. Green is green. And, O/our vegetables never get into O/our meat. Regretfully, the world is not such a place.

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I am afraid I am not quite with you here -?

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I personally would not knowingly be Dom to a switch. Not because they have no “right” to be what they wish to be, nor, that it is My place to judge there choices, it is merely the fact that they will not completely be what I wish them to be for as long as I wish them to be that.

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I'm afraid I lost this one too..?

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Do not be confused. Take your bewilderment as an opportunity to explore life.

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I did not really explain this at first, but as I said later, the confusion on my part is due to both a cultural shock concerning the attitude towards switches and my personal situation, in which illness means that I have to find all over what I do now. Believe you me, I have explored in my time! <G>

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Perhaps one day you will be One or the other

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No offence intended, but do you thing you will change from Dom to sub in time? No?
Well, likewise I do not think I will go from being a switch to being a one-sider - it is what I Am.
What I need to find out is where I am within this field.

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but until that time take what life gives you and live it to the fullest. Worry not what O/others say, nor, how they want to apply their view of how the world should be.

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I do intend to enjoy myself. As for the other, the problem with that is that a a switch you tend to be a minority in a minority on lists and get into endless discussions about whether you are 'real' this or 'real' that or insincere, dabbling, confused, undecided or whatever.. The only way to avoid that is to not say you are a switch, which sucks too.

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Originally Posted by Pearlgem

Thir, I don't have any experience of this but I found your question interesting and it made me wonder...

Could it have something to do with the extravagant claims you sometimes hear from both subs and doms about how they were born to their mindset, they've always knows they were definitely one or the other, they're sub or dom to their very heart and soul, it fulfils/completes them to their core, etc etc (which may be true but that's the orthodoxy it's so easy for any old sub or dom to tag themselves with) - so when there are those few who claim to be able to genuinely and meaningfully switch between the sacred engrained positions, it rather seems to undercut the deadly earnestness of these positions, and nobody likes to be 'cut down to size.'.

Am I on to something here, do you think?

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Yes, I think you are. Some of the I-was-born-to-command Doms (it's usually men) feel undermined by the very idea that a Dom could also submit, so they have to distance themselves by insisting that anyone like that can't be a real Dom.

And for a living example, my ex-slave never wanted to hear about my exploits on the subby side of the street, because the very idea of her Master kneeling to someone made her feel like the ground was cracking under her. And when I discussed getting other slaves, the only important thing to her was that she shouldn't be expected to take any control of them: if there was going to be a chain of command, she couldn't bear to be anywhere but the bottom.

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Originally Posted by thir

Recently the question was put here whether being a switch makes for a better dom/sub.

I would think so in many cases, because you know a lot about what things feel like on the other side of the fence. But try to pose that question on your average bdsm list, and you are likely to get less than respectful answers..

I myself have pondered these comments:

If you both submit and dominate, then you cannot be really serious/devoted in either.

Or that a Dom or sub is born that way, and that is just the way it is.

Or that doms/subs never ever switch.

Or they get in the way of each other in a practical way.

I would be very interested in hearing what others have to say here, as I myself have some problems with getting things straightened out in my head.

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i don't "look down" on switches, but i don't understand it either, unless when you switch it is for a different gender. i feel this way because a submissive is a submissive and it is ingrained in your personality, just as a Dom is a Dom...perhaps some people don't "take switches seriously" because in some minds, switching might seem like they are just in it for the fun of it and not for what D/s really means. i have sexual feelings for women occasionally, though i have never acted on them, but when i imagine playing with another woman, i am always in control and she is my little slut, so i would most likely take a dominant role when i do have sex with another woman someday. but i am a submissive through and through and could never place myself above my Dom in any way, and if i were to ever have sex with another woman, there is no way i would allow her to have any control over me whatsoever.

p.s. i just realized i am in a 'switch' forum...my apologies for commenting here...i was browsing through the forums and just posted without looking to see where i was.

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Originally Posted by Timoty

Secondly, I am secure in My Dominance and have no desire to be bottom to A/anyone.

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It may surprise you, but I'm secure in my dominance too (so much so that I don't need to emphasise it with capitals), which is why I don't feel it's undermined by the fact that I also can enjoy submitting.

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Do not be confused. Take your bewilderment as an opportunity to explore life.

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It's not clear if this was addressed to thir or to switches in general, but either way it reads as offensively patronising. Once again: being a switch does not mean being "confused".

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Perhaps one day you will be One or the other but until that time take what life gives you and live it to the fullest.

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Why ill-wish her (or us)? I'm sure every switch would agree that they would be diminished if they lost half their sexuality.

You might as well assure me that perhaps one day I'll recover from being bisexual and settle for either men or women.

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Originally Posted by voxelectronica

It reminds me very much of the ways that people think of gay relationships and honestly it's just not understanding.

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I have had just the same kind of hostility as a bisexual on gay lists, and the same kind of comments - "you haven't found what you really are," "you're really gay/str8 but you won't admit it." It seems that some people are deeply attached to their personal categories, to the point where they feel threatened by anyone who seems to suggest that those categories aren't as absolute as they want to believe.

Men for whom "being a man" is basic feel threatened by gays (and don't even mention TVs). Gays who care about "gay identity" feel threatened by bis. People whose indentity is bound up in their couple relationship feel threatened by polys. Doms who believe that "some are born to rule and some to serve" feel threatened by switches. And so on.

Rimmer: "I am what I am and that's all that I am." I think Descartes said that.
Kryten: No, Sir, that was Popeye.
Rimmer: I knew it was one of those philososphers.

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Originally Posted by Mr. Tomcat

Well some people (not me) believe that if you are a Dom you are a Dom and if you are a Sub you are a Sub.

I think it just comes down to the idea that, if someone "submits" to someone and gives up control then they must be in that "mindset" and I *guess* people feel if that is the case then they can't get into the "Dominant" mindset.

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<nods> I remember when I first felt the sub urges, I was 24 and it came out of the blue. I could not for the life of me understand what these ideas had to do with ME and the person I was! I struggled with it for more than a year, trying to think it all out. Then I realised that I couldn't. The only way was to try and see what happened. And I did, and it was good. I had had experiences with two very abusive situations (not bdsm related) and they left me devastated. And however much my bdsm situations looked like abuse, it wasn't. But I could not think my solution, I had to try it and then face the facts the experiment gave up.

Later came the dominance <G>

My point is, I believe that the people your mention here likewise try to think their understanding of Ds things. But sometimes you cannot. Sometimes you just have to accept facts. And the facts are, that understand it or not, some people do have both tangents.

I cannot claim to understand it myself, but I think it has to do with some sort of two-sides-of-a-coin. That Ds or BDSM is a whole, somehow.

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Originally Posted by sinderella

i don't "look down" on switches, but i don't understand it either, unless when you switch it is for a different gender.

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It is my impression that switch or powershifter profiles are very very different from each other. Some I know do in fact shift according to gender. Others, however, may shift according to their relationships, or after which side people pull at..

Quite a few I know have been subs for years, and then, for some reason unaccountable to themselves, shift to dominance.

[QUOTE] i feel this way because a submissive is a submissive and it is ingrained in your personality, just as a Dom is a Dom...[/]

Many people say this, but why? I do not doubt for a moment that this is how it is for you, but why should it be like that for everybody?

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perhaps some people don't "take switches seriously" because in some minds, switching might seem like they are just in it for the fun of it and not for what D/s really means.

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Puuh, here I was confused..
OK, trying to sort my thoughts out it out a bit..First, there are many ways in BDSM, some are Ds orientated and some are not. It is a very wide field with lots and lots of variations, and none is 'the right way'. 'The Right Way' is individual, which is to say the way that makes that individual or these people happy.

It does not make sense otherwise, does it??? Or else, who gets to say which is right on behalf of all? And does it not matter whether or not they are happy?

It seems to me that if you break out of the straight and narrow ways of mainstream society, there is no point in running headlong into another set of rules set by others!

Secondly, what also confused me was that the 'just in it for the fun of it and not for what D/s really means' bit sounds like Ds is not fun! That isn't what you mean, is it??

Comments are welcome, I realize I am not quite with you here..

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i have sexual feelings for women occasionally, though i have never acted on them, but when i imagine playing with another woman, i am always in control and she is my little slut, so i would most likely take a dominant role when i do have sex with another woman someday.
but i am a submissive through and through and could never place myself above my Dom in any way, and if i were to ever have sex with another woman, there is no way i would allow her to have any control over me whatsoever.

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Does this mean that your submissiveness is related to gender? What I mean is, that you are sub to men but Dom to women? Or do you mean that dominating women doesn't count as being dominant?

Sounds like a familiar profile, but doesn't that clash with your concept of being sub through and through??

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Originally Posted by leo9

I have had just the same kind of hostility as a bisexual on gay lists, and the same kind of comments - "you haven't found what you really are," "you're really gay/str8 but you won't admit it." It seems that some people are deeply attached to their personal categories, to the point where they feel threatened by anyone who seems to suggest that those categories aren't as absolute as they want to believe.

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I think that is the core of the problem.
I am Bi and I get looked down alot because of it, getting the whole ' u just haven't found ur side' BS. In the BDSM community, I get looked down for being a switch... same thing. I am a switch yes, but I will be the first person to tell you that I will never switch roles with one person... it makes it awkward, and i could never take that person seriously. Some people stroke my sub strings.. others make me want to stroke their sub strings. That's the end of it to me. I enjoy being dom and I enjoy being sub. Each of us have a calling that is more often than the other (for me its being a dom) but when all is said and done, we'll go to the other side willingly if the right person strikes us that way. I think that is the part ppl find hard to believe.
However, when you look at people's backgrounds and such, you come to realize that they too are switches and they just don't notice it. Or i seem to notice that trend among doms. There are alot who stepped into the world as subs who associated as doms later... so did they not enjoy that slavery before?
Since so many things are grey in the world, ppl find comfort in the black and white, slaves must be slaves, doms must be doms. Anything we say won't change those people who find that comfort enough to insult or point it out but... we know better, don't we? :blurp_ani

Good thread. I'm pretty new to everything, and am still in that stage of trying to figure out exactly where I fit in. I do have a dominant side, but find myself thinking and fantasizing about submission much more often, so I pretty much came to the conclusion that I'm more of a sub. I don't think my dom side is prevalent enough to consider myself a switch, but maybe. But I don't see why so many people think being a switch is so impossible. People automatically take dom/sub roles in everyday life, don't they? Just think about your circle of friends. Maybe when you get together with a particular person, they're the one who makes all the plans, say "we're going here, we're doing this," they have that personality, and you just say "Okay." You automatically fall into that role, they're in charge. Or maybe it's the other way around, and another of your friends is more shy and quiet, so you're the one who makes the plans and calls the shots. Or maybe you're both on the same page and plan the night evenly. I think everyone has those kinds of dynamics with people in their everyday life, so why would it be so impossible to have those same reactions in a BDSM sense? To feel more sub around a certain person, more dom around another, or even one way or the other around the same person, depending on mood and moment. It makes sense to me.

I think a lot of people just tend to view things in extremes. I mean really, what "is" a Dom/Domme? What "is" a sub? What "is" a switch? Shouldn't it be in how each person defines it for themselves? Everyone's different, why try to fit everyone under the same umbrella? For example, I want to start learning and exploring as a sub, but I'm not sure I'd want to be in a 24/7 D&S relationship. If I were dating someone, I'd want it to be part of our relationship, but not the entire basis of it. Others might dream of being an owned slave. There's nothing wrong with either, but I think a lot of people are more inclined to think of the owned slave as being a true sub rather than the person who might want to submit in the bedroom but not in every aspect of their lives. To them, their definition is a certain way, and things that don't fit don't count, like switching. And there's nothing wrong with their definition, they just need to be open-minded enough to accept that definitions that aren't exactly the same as theirs can be just as valid.

I've been reading through this thread and it kinda, yeah, left me sad. There's all this talking about us folks in the lifestyle are soooo openminded and welcoming to different points of views but when it comes down to actually act accordingly all that talking appears to be a lot of hipocrisy.

I think one of the reasons why switches are looked down upon may be that they are crossing the neatly drawn borders between subs and Doms and by doing that they "threaten" some peoples' image of themselves, or even their identity.

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Originally Posted by lucy

I've been reading through this thread and it kinda, yeah, left me sad. There's all this talking about us folks in the lifestyle are soooo openminded and welcoming to different points of views but when it comes down to actually act accordingly all that talking appears to be a lot of hipocrisy.

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*sigh* I hear ya.

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I think one of the reasons why switches are looked down upon may be that they are crossing the neatly drawn borders between subs and Doms and by doing that they "threaten" some peoples' image of themselves, or even their identity.

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I'd say that if a person is truly secure in his/her/hir identity as a dom(me), sub, whatever, then the fact that other people do not categorize themselves in exactly the same way shouldn't make any difference. And one won't ever been viewed as the Most Dominant Dom of All or Subbiest Sub Ever by trying to negate the choices of others. I think that dom/sub tendencies, like gender identity and sexual orientation, can be far more fluid and less a matter of "either/or" than is commonly believed.

[QUOTE=thir;752801]It is my impression that switch or powershifter profiles are very very different from each other. Some I know do in fact shift according to gender. Others, however, may shift according to their relationships, or after which side people pull at..

Quite a few I know have been subs for years, and then, for some reason unaccountable to themselves, shift to dominance.

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i feel this way because a submissive is a submissive and it is ingrained in your personality, just as a Dom is a Dom...[/]

Many people say this, but why? I do not doubt for a moment that this is how it is for you, but why should it be like that for everybody?



Puuh, here I was confused..
OK, trying to sort my thoughts out it out a bit..First, there are many ways in BDSM, some are Ds orientated and some are not. It is a very wide field with lots and lots of variations, and none is 'the right way'. 'The Right Way' is individual, which is to say the way that makes that individual or these people happy.

It does not make sense otherwise, does it??? Or else, who gets to say which is right on behalf of all? And does it not matter whether or not they are happy?

It seems to me that if you break out of the straight and narrow ways of mainstream society, there is no point in running headlong into another set of rules set by others!

Secondly, what also confused me was that the 'just in it for the fun of it and not for what D/s really means' bit sounds like Ds is not fun! That isn't what you mean, is it??

Comments are welcome, I realize I am not quite with you here..



Does this mean that your submissiveness is related to gender? What I mean is, that you are sub to men but Dom to women? Or do you mean that dominating women doesn't count as being dominant?

Sounds like a familiar profile, but doesn't that clash with your concept of being sub through and through??

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oh boy :)

sorry...i should have been clearer. i soOo hate to be misunderstood, or to misunderstand others. when i said i am submissive through and through, i guess i was only thinking about it in terms of my sexuality, which means, FOR ME, i could only love a man, never a woman, and could only submit to a man, and never a woman. i know this deep down inside. that is not to say i would ever look down on someone for 'being a switch', and i don't think i indicated that, but if i gave that impression, i certainly apologize.

of course dominating a woman 'counts' as being dominant, although i would make a terrible Domme because i would not be interested in nurturing my girl, i would just use her sexually and be done with her. of course, that was all hypothetically speaking, mind you, and who knows what anyone would do in any given situation.

also, i did not say it should be that way for everybody...i mean, take a look around here, people are into all kinds of interesting things and speaking for myself i certainly never judge anyone for their interests or 'kinks' just because they clash with mine or whathaveyou, so please don't think that from my comments.

i also agree there is no 'right way' or 'wrong way'...to each his own, whatever makes you happy, i have no problem with that. and here, again, i agree with you when you say:

there is no point in running headlong into another set of rules set by others!

iin my case, if i were to 'switch', i would be dominant with a woman before i would ever be dominant with a man. i have found that vanilla men are taken with me and they don't know why, and they want to control me because they sense my submissiveness somehow, although they don't know how to deal with it. i think it is ingrained in me, just as switching must be ingrained in people who switch. but i do not act dominant with men...to me for the most part, i instinctively already place men above me, especially Masters and Doms, absoultely just because of who they are. i think that is because the controlling, powerful facet of their personality tugs at the submissive, compliant facet of my personality and the more they take from me, the more i want to give to them, and i view women as equals, so to answer the question, IN MY CASE ONLY, yes, 'switching' would be gender-related.

i hope this helps...please continue to ask if i have not responded to your satisfaction...i don't want to make anyone feel bad :(

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Originally Posted by lucy

I've been reading through this thread and it kinda, yeah, left me sad. There's all this talking about us folks in the lifestyle are soooo openminded and welcoming to different points of views but when it comes down to actually act accordingly all that talking appears to be a lot of hipocrisy.

I think one of the reasons why switches are looked down upon may be that they are crossing the neatly drawn borders between subs and Doms and by doing that they "threaten" some peoples' image of themselves, or even their identity.

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Yep, you've hit the thumb right on the nail there. And one of the ironic things is that, as shadowcast said, a lot of people come into the scene as subs and then discover a dom side {hugs thir}.

It really does look as if most BDSM people can go both ways, it's just that some strongly prefer one way over the other. So if this means we shouldn't make distinctions (which I don't believe, but for purposes of argument...) then logically, we should be discarding the categories "Dom" and "sub" and classing everyone as different kinds of switch. I don't advocate it myself, because all terms are useful so long as you remember that the map is not the territory, but it's more logical than discarding the category of "switch".

[QUOTE=sinderella;754596]

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Originally Posted by thir

i hope this helps...please continue to ask if i have not responded to your satisfaction...i don't want to make anyone feel bad :(

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I wrote a long response which promptly disappeared, just as the last 5 I wrote. So until I have sorted this problem out, I can only and quickly say:
I do not feel bad! I just wanted to ask for clarification,being interested in what you say, and you very kindly took the time and bother to do so.
All is not clear - thanks! ;-)

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Originally Posted by Mothra!!!

*sigh* I hear ya.



I'd say that if a person is truly secure in his/her/hir identity as a dom(me), sub, whatever, then the fact that other people do not categorize themselves in exactly the same way shouldn't make any difference.

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At the risk of making myself instant persona non grata, why do we care so much? A personal level of comfort with my own needs/desires, feelings, and identity and the companionship of kindred spirits is, imo, far more likely to bring me happiness and fun than seeking the validation of others who can't relate to me.

...if a person is truly secure in his/her/hir identity as a switch....

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Originally Posted by ghostgirl

At the risk of making myself instant persona non grata, why do we care so much? A personal level of comfort with my own needs/desires, feelings, and identity and the companionship of kindred spirits is, imo, far more likely to bring me happiness and fun than seeking the validation of others who can't relate to me.

...if a person is truly secure in his/her/hir identity as a switch....

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Well, that's sorta my point too ;)

But unless I'm reading the entire thread wrong, it sounds like thir and others have been frustrated by trying to interact merely on a casual level with folks who can't even grasp the concept of being a switch. That gets tiresome after you've run into it enough times, especially when you're just looking for some friendly discussion on an email list or are trying to socialize at a munch. Having encountered similar attitudes in an entirely different context, I can sympathize.

But you're right: ultimately you've got to do what makes you happy and content and ignore the naysayers.

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Originally Posted by Mothra!!!

Well, that's sorta my point too ;)

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i didn't miss it, Mothra :)

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Originally Posted by Mothra!!!

..unless I'm reading the entire thread wrong, it sounds like thir and others have been frustrated by trying to interact merely on a casual level with folks who can't even grasp the concept of being a switch. That gets tiresome after you've run into it enough times, especially when you're just looking for some friendly discussion on an email list or are trying to socialize at a munch. Having encountered similar attitudes in an entirely different context, I can sympathize.

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My point exactly, and I am not used to that where I come from and so was seeking an explanation, plus I think that there is enough pressure on non-mainstream people that we should stick together. Thirdly, I do not like the tendency by some to be one-wayish and down talk other kinds of paths because, as I have seen and read, newcomers at times try desperately to fit into a box where they really do not belong, because they have been told that that is the way to be. It can be heart-wrenching to listen to and makes me furious.

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But you're right: ultimately you've got to do what makes you happy and content and ignore the naysayers.

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I agree, that is the way to do it. Never mind the self-appointed 'nobility' and dogma, let's be heretics ;-)

[QUOTE=thir;755001]

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Originally Posted by sinderella

I wrote a long response which promptly disappeared, just as the last 5 I wrote. So until I have sorted this problem out, I can only and quickly say:
I do not feel bad! I just wanted to ask for clarification,being interested in what you say, and you very kindly took the time and bother to do so.
All is not clear - thanks! ;-)

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oh well, you can't say we didn't try... :)

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Originally Posted by leo9

I have had just the same kind of hostility as a bisexual on gay lists, and the same kind of comments - "you haven't found what you really are," "you're really gay/str8 but you won't admit it." It seems that some people are deeply attached to their personal categories, to the point where they feel threatened by anyone who seems to suggest that those categories aren't as absolute as they want to believe.
.

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God help you if you aren't gay or lesbian. if you are something in between you can (almost always) kiss that group of people goodbye. Feeling a little transgendered one day? Don't bring that up too much.

It's the same here. There are some vocal (and who knows how many non vocal) Doms who are talking about not wanting a switch sub. Honestly... I think it's fear.

I started switching because a lot of Dom's out there (and yes i have a lot of experience), suck. I had an idea in my head of perfection and very few (like maybe 2 in real life and 3 online) even came close to that. Doesn't this search or perfection make me any less submissive? No it doesn't. I want to please my Master and i want to be his perfect sub. I wasn't born his perfect sub so he should have the self discipline inside himself to train me to be more pleasing.

I WANT discipline and I found that I could instill that in me by training a sub. I could discipline myself because i wasn't going to let a sub down and i want her to grow as a person AND as my property.

This want in me for perfection doesn't make me less of a sub. It does make me a picky sub but I'm a picky Dom too. If you aren't going to submit to me and learn from me and grow for me then I don't want you. Likewise if you are a Dom who isn't going to teach me, discipline me and blow all of our plans because you wanted to get off, i don't want you.

If i submit to you, it's more than just worth it. I take pride in everything I do and know what to give and no i wont think about Domming in my off time... I'm yours. Just like i don't think of subbing when I'm with a sub that would be silly.