Are you an adulterer?

[Warbaby1943]

In my mind, at least, I had to experience some of my desires so I visited a professional and made it clear ahead of time that there was no desire or need for sexual intercourse. Of course when you hire a pro that is understood ahead of time. I don't believe I am an adulterer.

If your spouse isn't in to BDSM no matter what - do you consider yourself an adulterer for having a real life experience with a partner? I know that most times there may be a sex act involved with this living out of your dreams but what I'm talking about is just experiencing some of your desires without having sex.

This may sound like a strange question but the subject came up in another thread I was reading and not to take focus away from that thread I thought I ask the question here.

How do others feel?

[maddie]

This is something I've been thinking about on and off for a week or so. I have no interest in an R/L relationship with anybody but my husband, so for me, it's a question of "when does something online cross the line to being unfaithful?"

Technically speaking, if there's no sex involved, then you (royal you, not you, Warbaby) aren't committing adultery. As far as online experiences, my basic attitude is this: I'm willing to flirt and play around with some role play or write some short stories at some point, but I don't want to establish a more formal relationship with somebody else. I never want to put myself in a position where I have to explain what I've been doing.

[_ID_]

"when does something online cross the line to being unfaithful?"

This happens when you hide what your doing from the one your saying your faithful to.

There are two sides to this coin. When you explore a fantasy with another person that is not your partner, BDSM or vanillia, your removing the chance that your partner might want to also experience this with you in some degree. Participation may not be required, but observation might. The otherside of the coin is if you voice your desire to do something, and their reaction is to tell you "If you do such a thing, we are through". Then you know without a doubt your chances of being able to explore this fantasy are nil without the possiblilty of being unfaithful in some manner.

As we all know all too well, within BDSM or any other person to person dynamic that requires trust as the basis of the activity. Communication is paramount. If your not able to communicate your desires, intentions, and dreams to the one your with. Then it is time for you to evaluate your station in the relationship, and make choices.

The follow up to all that is, if your going to lie to your partner, and break a very important trust, then how is the person your trying out this fantasy with to know your being truthfull about what your telling them. Depending on the activity, this could be a crucial breakdown resulting in a less than satisfactory experience of what you had dreamed about to that point.

[Tojo]

I think in this thread it would do us well to remember we're only giving our opinions. There is no right or wrong, unless you refer to the belief that to think of another is to commit adultery.

We're all adulterers, just as we're all human.


Tojo

[Ruby]

Interesting question and thread.

Tojo, your comment reminds me of the 1976 Playboy interview of then-Governor Carter:

"I've looked on a lot of women with lust. I've committed adultery in my heart many times..."

It's very had to be on this site and not be an adulterer if we use his line. Though I might change it to "in my imagination".

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What is adultery?

Here are some web definitions of the word adultery:

extramarital sex that willfully and maliciously interferes with marriage relations; "adultery is often cited as grounds for divorce"
wordnet.princeton.edu/perl/webwn

Adultery is generally defined as consensual sexual intercourse by a married person with someone other than their lawful spouse. As there is usually an implicit or explicit agreement between spouses to not have sex outside the marriage, the common synonym for adultery is infidelity as well as unfaithfulness or in colloquial speech, cheating. By extension, adultery may also apply to any other sexual activities committed outside the marriage.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adultery

When one spouse has sexual intercourse with a third party. Grounds for divorce in some states and provinces.
singleparents.
about.com/cs/glossary/a/glossaryA.htm

conjugal infidelity. An adulterer was a man who had illicit intercourse with a married or a betrothed woman, and such a woman was an adulteress. Intercourse between a married man and an unmarried woman was fornication. Adultery was regarded as a great social wrong, as well as a great sin.
www.godweb.org/blT0000100.htm

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In most of these definitions the words "sex" and "intercourse" come into play.

So, what if we (the collective we on the forums) are practicing "outercourse"?

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Outercourse:

Any form of sexual pleasure or stimulation between partners that does not include insertion of the penis into the vagina, anus, or mouth. Activities may include masturbation, erotic massage, rubbing together of body parts, and erotic fantasy.
http://www.thehardnessfactor.com/exc.../glossary.html

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Hmmmmm.... there's that word "sex" again, but this time, there's no "intercourse" happening.

So...no. No adultery in that definition.

[Tojo]

Sorry IDCrewDawg, didn't see your post- I must have done mine at the same time. Please don't think I was referring to you.

Depending on your definition of the word, we may well all be adulterers, by just looking at another. The dictionary defines it as 'sexual intercourse with one other than wife or husband.'

So according to the dictionary I'm not an adulterer. Going by that my meeting with my dream girl where we spend a week together is OK. We won't be having sex.

Apparently a certain US President didn't commit adultery...does that mean I can indulge in oral sex??

To take it to the other extreme, I'm in love with another woman who's thousands of miles away. Should I stop talking to her?

I love my wife very much. I've never touched another woman in the 18 years we've been together. I've stayed in motel rooms with them, held their hands in counselling sessions & felt love for them.

Never been tempted to do more though, although my sex life is pretty much non-existant due to my wife's poor health.

I survive in my marriage, support & love my wife because she gives me the freedom to do what I want. I said I wanted to borrow her car for a week, take hundreds of dollars out the bank & stay in a room with a woman she's never met. She wasn't happy about borrowing the car, but otherwise trusts me. I trust myself, otherwise I wouldn't do it.

As far as having feelings for another woman, or thoughts...I'll do what I damn well want! I know I'm faithful, honest & care for my wife a whole heap more than anyone I know.

That gets me to sleep at night.

Tojo

[Silke]

Hmm, really an interesting subject. In my opinion it all depends on what everyone can justify for him/herself. As soon as I'd get a bad conscience I'd stop or talk it over with all parties involved. But up to that point I think all is fair. And that point is probably determined by what the basic values of me and my partner are...

Just me and my world.

[Blue_Monday]

Tojo, it's none of my business, but does that mean your wife knows about the other relationships you have (the woman you're in love with)? I don't know all the details of your situation, but it sounds like you don't worry about keeping these things secret.

Whether she knows or not, it's interesting that you love her and also love another woman. I think it's a rare and lucky person who's never had the experience of being in love with more than one person at a time. Getting married doesn't suddenly make you immune to it; nor does falling in love with another woman mean you'll leave your wife.

My personal experience with it is this: I was an adulterer. I got married young and became dissatisfied with my marriage. I began forming friendships with men, and it was only a matter of time before friendships started becoming more. For a time, I had a romantic but not sexual relationship with a co-worker; later, I had a sexual online relationship with a dominant. I still loved my husband, and while it wasn't difficult to find time for the other relationships, I can't describe the hell I went through worrying that he would "catch" me. Not because I worried he'd leave me--I wanted him to leave me. But because I knew it would break his heart; I knew what a betrayal it was. I knew that I should have had the guts to either fix the relationship or leave it, but not to do neither.

Eventually I found the man who is now my lover, my partner, and soon (hopefully!) to be my husband. I left my ex for him, and the relief that came from no longer having to lie is wonderful. Our faithfulness to each other is not because we're perfect sex partners (we are, but that's not the point :-) ) or because no one of the opposite sex will ever catch our eyes, it's because we both know the pain of constantly lying to a loved one.

But that's just my experience. For me, any relationship that causes me to lie to my partner--about where I am, whom I'm with, what I'm doing, or how I feel about it--is cheating. I won't judge anyone else who does this, but for me, it's not worth it.

[His_pita]

Before my divorce when I was online everyday with my Sir, making plans to be with him, loving him and already in my heart his submissive. I very much considered myself an adulterer. That is something we must all decide for ourselves. I know for me it's not something I am proud of and I pray my God will forgive me for it.

[Tojo]

Blue Monday- when I met my wife, I had a number of female friends. I said that to her & before things got serious told her she'd have to accept it.

It was her choice to marry a man who has friends of the opposite sex, she hasn't regretted it yet. She says I need to have my own life- whether with my mates, riding my bike or talking to women. I say the same to her.

I believe a big part of the reason we've got a marriage that many people envy is because we don't cling. We're both independant people who come together & share a life.

Yes she knows I spend hours chatting & on the phone to other women. She knows women 'have the hots for me' as she puts it in r/l.

No she doesn't know that two of them call me their Master. If she did, she'd think I was nuts!

We've discussed the bondage D/s thing- it's never going to happen.

Her philosophy is 'You can look but not touch'. She would not want to know what I say to other people, male or female. She knows I'm a ladies man, or used to be.

That's what I call love. That's why I'll do without a r/l D/s lifestyle while she's alive.

The other thing is that I'm a counsellor/ally to people I see as worthwhile. I often tell her things my girls go through, & talk to her about it.

I'm a very lucky man- while I may love another, I'm staying with my wife.

Tojo

[Warbaby1943]

This is turning into a very interesting discussion, which I had hoped it would, and the results were kind of predictable in that it is certainly a personal decision about feeling adulterous.

I to don't like lying to my wife but other than that I don't feel like I am committing adultery. My lie was where I was for a 5 hour period out of our entire marriage of 40 years plus. As I am doing now, I know a person can justify it anyway they wish but there really are many extenuating circumstances.

While it is never right nor advisable to lie to one's spouse or partner, sometimes it may be best to leave a lot of things unsaid. In my case I know my wife has no interest in my BDSM desires. Yes, we used to discuss it. I also know that if she did find out that I visited a professional to fulfill these desires, she would forgive me my discretions. She would not understand them but our love is great enough that it would not be destroyed. I went once, enjoyed it, but probably will never go again. It took 63 years to do it the first time.

It is also possible, for me at least at my age, that I now feel that I have experienced what I had always fantasized about and now my curiosity is satisfied. I made a conscientious decision to visit but had I thought it would jeopardize my marriage, I would have forgone it. I'm still very interested but will control those feelings as I have always done in the past. That is another reason I like this forum so much because all subjects can be discussed with no judgments passed.

I lust in my heart but I do not commit adultery, by my way of thinking.

[karin]

in my humble opinion *OPINION being the key word here*....i think its adultery if its non-consentual sex outside a committed relationship of any type..be it marriage or otherwise. my Master/Husband and i have, what i like to call a "contolled semi-open marriage" in where, if one of us wishes to indulge in sex outside of our own relationship..it is discussed first, and agreed upon by both...not agreed on? doesn't happen. simple as that.
just an opinion

[_ID_]

Don't take my comments to mean that I was saying any of you were or were not an adulter. What I said was how I feel about it. I didn't comment on if I was or wasn't an adulterer. That information is to remain between myself and my wife/partner/submissive/slave.

Tojo, I didn't take what you said to be refering to me. I rarely take offense at what someone says, unless they are speaking falsly about me, or my wife. Then I have a problem.

Back to the thread. In my opionon to consider yourself an adulterer or not is something you will have to come to terms with, when conducting whatever activity it is your doing. Online or not.

[katie_21]

I think I agree with the person who said there was no real definition of this, I think it depends on the person and the spouse/other half. My husband has always said that sexual intercourse is cheating, that's it. Now I'm sure he doesn't expect me to go give 100 blow jobs and not be pissed off about it ( I wouldn't do that anyway lol)

Different for everyone I guess.

My definition of cheating is a little more complex then that, I think cheating can be done with your mind as well as your body. But I'm religious and I think that has a lot to do with it.

[Warbaby1943]

Hmm, really an interesting subject. In my opinion it all depends on what everyone can justify for him/herself. As soon as I'd get a bad conscience I'd stop or talk it over with all parties involved. But up to that point I think all is fair. And that point is probably determined by what the basic values of me and my partner are...

Just me and my world.

Hi Silke,

I think that is why I have chosen to stop, at least that is my decision at this time. I really couldn't voluntarily talk it over with my wife. As I said elsewhere, at least IMO, I think sometimes some things are better left unsaid. Especially if you know it will cause hurt feelings. It might also save me having to buy some new jewelery.

[Tojo]

katie you're far too sick to be answering such involved questions.

Go back to bed girl!


Tojo

[katie_21]

Yeah you're right...I'm so high on medicine right now, I make Cheech and Chong look sober lol.

[Masters_lilone]

no i'm not an adulterer.... my soon to be husband is also my Master and yes he encourages me to play with others some times but i make it clear in advance that there will be no sex involved and that i'm not looking for anything other then frendship when ever i play with anyone other then my Master

[maddie]

My husband and I went away for the weekend and, during the drive out of town on Friday, I told him about y'all and we had a long talk about what I can and can't do here. I told him that I never wanted him to feel like I was hiding something from him, but that I also didn't think I'd done anything here to feel guilty about or concerned about.

Basically, we set up boundaries and he gets to see what's going on here now and then. It was hard to bring this up, because I honestly wasn't sure what his reaction would be, but he's fine with it, so long as I don't cross any lines we've established.

I think I would have had a problem keeping this a secret from him. Again, I haven't and didn't expect to post anything here that I thought would be a problem, but it just felt wrong to keep it from him. He doesn't know about everything I do online, nor do I know all of the places he visits, but something of this nature needs to be out in the open. Honesty is so key to a functional relationship and I actually feel a lot more comfortable about posting here now that he knows about it.

[His_pita]

I agree with you Maddie and if you can have that type of relationship then for goodness sake hold on to it! I understand others who do keep it secret. I hid things from my ex-husband for a very long time. In the beginning I tried to tell him stuff and even get him involved in my online life. But, his jealousy was so bad that I took it "underground"

Now, that I have my Dom, things are much different. We have computers within 3 feet of each others. I tell him everything that is of importance. I play on 8 boards so of course I don't tell him every thread I post on. But, if it's of a sexual nature or something I know he would want to know I do tell him right away. I like being held accountable now. I like the honesty.

[Alex Bragi]

"But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart.

Maybe the kind of sex warbaby is referring to in his original post is on only adultery if you’re a theist, or more specifically a Christian?

I was interested to read karin{ID}'s response. Certainly a pious person may consider karin's situation, a "contolled semi-open marriage", to be adulterous. However, it's interesting to note that, the word adultery is actually derived from the Latin word aulderium meaning to debase by adding something inferior. So if a third person actually enhances your relationship, is it really still adulterous?

[Tojo]

In the beginning I tried to tell him stuff and even get him involved in my online life. But, his jealousy was so bad that I took it "underground"

That's an excellent point by His_pita. My wife is understanding, so I tell her about people I talk to. I say so & so is doing such & such without giving too many details, & she says 'oh the one in California?' or whatever.

I don't tell her things like I'm doing a contract for one girl, who wishes me to regard her as 'my property', but then my wife would just think I'm nuts!

She may not be the world's most understanding person, & has a fair degree of jealousy...but all in all, I tell her the essence of what I do & she accepts it.
If not, well I wouldn't be here with her & if I was I wouldn't tell her a thing.

When your own nearest & dearest doesn't trust you- they don't love you in my opinion.


Tojo

[_ID_]

I was interested to read karin{ID}'s response. Certainly a pious person may consider karin's situation, a "contolled semi-open marriage", to be adulterous.

Just to clarify your notions, we are not in anyway pious. We are the way we are because we are in a commited relationship, we have made vows to each other. We feel that participating in some sort sexual contant or relationship without the others concent is as you very accuratly pointed out

the word adultery is actually derived from the Latin word aulderium meaning to debase by adding something inferior

[Warbaby1943]

When your own nearest & dearest doesn't trust you- they don't love you in my opinion.
Tojo

Tojo,
I can't argue with that statement by itself. However, IMO at least in regards to fetish life styles, trusting and understanding are two different and separate entities.

For instance, I have many female friends that I carry on email and phone conversations with. These ladies go back to even before I met my wife, more than 42 years ago. All of them I dated at one time or another. Keep in mind I have been married for over 40 years and she does trust me and always has with these or any new ladies I come in contact with in my everyday life. She used to be just a little bit jealous and maybe still has a slight trace of that but she knows in here heart that I only look or talk, I never touch, so to speak. She does trust me. And yes, we do discuss every conversation or contact I have with these ladies, whether by accident or on purpose.

Relating to this forum, understanding this type of on line talk or involvement would never be possible for her. After 40 years I think you come to know your spouse as well as you know yourself. I know this is something she could never comprehend, or even want to for that matter.

So again IMO, trust and understanding are two separate issues. I believe it is great if you can have someone to share all aspects of your life with and I did for over 40 years and believe I still do except for these fetishes I have left creep into my life just very recently. If a choice ever had to be made, which I don't think it will, I'd be gone from this site in a heart beat. If I ever believed in my heart that I was an adulterer, I would have to see my minister immediately. I would need a clear conscience to look my wife in the face again. So as one post mentioned, I guess Christianity is a big part of my concern.

[Tojo]

Geez did I say I tell my wife 'the essence of what I do?'

No I darn well don't tell her the 'essence' of what I do- I tell her a small part.

I have friends, & I have a girl that regards herself as my property. The friends I have no problem talking about.

I agree trust & understanding are two different things. A few hours ago, I had a chat with a friend. I said 'why don't you chat with me when your bf is there? We're just friends?'

She said 'yes I'll tell him: Honey- I'm talking to the guy in Australia that sent me those steel shackles...'

Hmm. I guess it gets down to this for me- do I stop thinking about what is a huge part of me to be true to my wife? Would she be better off?

Or would I end up hating her & losing interest? Do I need to make the choice?

If I said to her 'Either it's OK for me to have online relationships or I'm never going to be happy, & may end up leaving you' I know she'd say it's fine. Do I tell her I'm in love with one of my friends? Where does it end?

Too much honesty can be a bad thing-IMO. Think about that.



Tojo

[Warbaby1943]

Too much honesty can be a bad thing-IMO. Think about that.
Tojo

Tojo,

Preaching to the choir, as they say. Couldn't agree more if I had said it myself.

[Alex Bragi]

Just to clarify your notions, we are not in anyway pious. We are the way we are because we are in a commited relationship, we have made vows to each other.

My comments were not directed at you.

I appreciate and respect that everyone is different, hence my use of the word 'may' not 'would'.

We feel that participating in some sort sexual contant or relationship without the others concent is as you very accuratly pointed out

You've quote me out of context here.

[_ID_]

My comments were not directed at you.

I appreciate and respect that everyone is different, hence my use of the word 'may' not 'would'.



You've quote me out of context here.

I understand you didnt direct it at us. As far as quoting out of context, I was quoting the saying, not you in particular, so I don't mean to offend. Was just giving example of our view is all.

V/R
ID