Waterboarding

[mkemse]

Should "Waterboarding" by the United State Military Be Outlawed And Made Illegal??

This is WaterboWaterboarding is a form of torture that consists of immobilizing a person on their back with the head inclined downward (the Trendelenburg position), and pouring water over the face and into the breathing passages.[1] Through forced suffocation and inhalation of water, the subject experiences the process of drowning and is made to believe that death is imminent.[2] In contrast to merely submerging the head face-forward, waterboarding almost immediately elicits the gag reflex.[3] Although waterboarding does not always cause lasting physical damage, it carries the risks of extreme pain, damage to the lungs, brain damage caused by oxygen deprivation, injuries (including broken bones) due to struggling against restraints, and even death.[4] The psychological effects on victims of waterboarding can last for years after the procedure.[5]

[DOMLORD]

forgive my ignorance, but what is "Waterboarding" and why does it matter?

[mkemse]

forgive my ignorance, but what is "Waterboarding" and why does it matter?

Sorry i need to explain it here it is:
The Military wants to and has used it to interogate People and President Bush said any bill(which is now pendng in Congress) that makes Waterboarding illegal he will veto


Waterboarding is a form of torture that consists of immobilizing a person on their back with the head inclined downward (the Trendelenburg position), and pouring water over the face and into the breathing passages.[1] Through forced suffocation and inhalation of water, the subject experiences the process of drowning and is made to believe that death is imminent.[2] In contrast to merely submerging the head face-forward, waterboarding almost immediately elicits the gag reflex.[3] Although waterboarding does not always cause lasting physical damage, it carries the risks of extreme pain, damage to the lungs, brain damage caused by oxygen deprivation, injuries (including broken bones) due to struggling against restraints, and even death.[4] The psychological effects on victims of waterboarding can last for years after the procedure.[5]

Waterboarding was used for interrogation at least as early as the Spanish Inquisition[6] to obtain information, coerce confessions, punish, and intimidate. It is considered to be torture by a wide range of authorities, including legal experts,[4][7] politicians, war veterans,[8][9] intelligence officials,[10] military judges,[11] and human rights organizations.[12][13] In 2007 waterboarding led to a political scandal in the United States when the press reported that the CIA had waterboarded extrajudicial prisoners[14] and that the Justice Department had authorized this procedure.[15] The CIA has admitted waterboarding Al-Qaida suspects Khalid Sheikh Mohammed, Abu Zubaydah and Abd al-Rahim al-Nashiri.[16]

[Alex Bragi]

Well, call me a cynic, but I not convinced that outlawing it will actually stop it happening.

Look at the Lindi English case, an isolated incident? I think not.

I feel that the Military often brings out the very best and the very worst in people.

[mkemse]

Well, call me a cynic, but I not convinced that outlawing it will actually stop it happening.

Look at the Lindi English case, an isolated incident? I think not.

I feel that the Military often brings out the very best and the very worst in people.

I realize that, it will still be used but should it be outlawed??
would you support a law outlawing it's use??

[DOMLORD]

hmm... i can see where the use might be atractive (especially for Water Bondage).
however most info elicited in this fassion is false. thats why most interogation techniques (lawful ones) always disorient the interogatee instead of harming them.
still i couldn't support it being outlawed because we can always threaten its use and fear is the most important weapon in an interogator's arsenal.

[cadence]

hmm... i can see where the use might be atractive (especially for Water Bondage)..

I have read some accounts elsewhere of others using this type of water torture in BDSM play. I wouldn't reccomend it to anyone who wasn't terribly experienced in edge play. Basically the end result is the reciprocating person puking. It doesn't sound too appealing to me.

however most info elicited in this fassion is false. thats why most interogation techniques (lawful ones) always disorient the interogatee instead of harming them.
still i couldn't support it being outlawed because we can always threaten its use and fear is the most important weapon in an interogator's arsenal.

Waterboarding can lead to permanent damage, and death. Torture techniques are designed to prolong agony, and yes can eventually harm the person.
Personally I don't care either way about waterboarding, I would think that the CIA is doing damage control right now, since this waterboarding has leaked out into the public foray.
Heaven forbid the american government would use any form of torture intended to harm another. I am sure that there are other forms of torture that are used as well, they just haven't been leaked out.

[_ID_]

For those that are unsure...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sS4sGYmzCuA

[countrystud]

Waterboarding is an interrogation technique. Basically, the person under investigation is tied down, their body declined. A rag is forced into the person's mouth and water is poured onto their face.

In my opinion, America should do what is necessary to protect her soldiers. I think waterboarding is an exceptable interrogation technique because it is not this brutal thing that everyone thinks it is. Its not like the person is having a finger cut off, or they are being flogged or electrocuted until they talk. I'm not saying that it is the best method, but it certainly isn't the worst. And it has been proven to work.

Now, if someone has a better way of getting information about from these guys, I'm all for it. But personally, i would rather have a human being think that he is choking to death, rather than having to beat the crap out of him. Either way, it sucks...but I think waterboarding is the lesser of the two evils.

[Thorne]

I think waterboarding is an exceptable interrogation technique because it is not this brutal thing that everyone thinks it is. Its not like the person is having a finger cut off, or they are being flogged or electrocuted until they talk. I'm not saying that it is the best method, but it certainly isn't the worst. And it has been proven to work.

Now, if someone has a better way of getting information about from these guys, I'm all for it. But personally, i would rather have a human being think that he is choking to death, rather than having to beat the crap out of him. Either way, it sucks...but I think waterboarding is the lesser of the two evils.

I suggest you try a little experiment. Lie down in your shower or tub, place a cloth over your face and allow the water to pour (or even spray) over the cloth, while you hold your hand behind your back. No turning the head away to breath, just let the water soak the cloth. I would bet that you don't last too long before you either turn your head away or pull the cloth away, just so you can get a breath.

Now imagine that you cannot turn away, and your hands (and everything else for that matter) are tied down, unusable. And then imagine that this goes on for hour after hour, day after day, your tormentors only allowing you enough air to keep you alive and conscious, but never enough to quell the burning, searing ache in your lungs.

Or, you can imagine sitting in a chair, probably secured, but not necessarily, being injected with a drug, then waking in your cell with no ill effects other than a mild headache, perhaps, but knowing that in all likelihood you've told your interrogators everything you knew.

Which would you prefer?

Torture, of any sort, is not only cruel and inhumane, it's virtually useless. Any information gotten from it cannot be trusted because the victims will usually say whatever they think you want to hear, just to make you stop, even if only for a short while. Drugs, psychology and even hypnosis are far more reliable and safe as an interrogation technique.

[mkemse]

I suggest you try a little experiment. Lie down in your shower or tub, place a cloth over your face and allow the water to pour (or even spray) over the cloth, while you hold your hand behind your back. No turning the head away to breath, just let the water soak the cloth. I would bet that you don't last too long before you either turn your head away or pull the cloth away, just so you can get a breath.

Now imagine that you cannot turn away, and your hands (and everything else for that matter) are tied down, unusable. And then imagine that this goes on for hour after hour, day after day, your tormentors only allowing you enough air to keep you alive and conscious, but never enough to quell the burning, searing ache in your lungs.

Or, you can imagine sitting in a chair, probably secured, but not necessarily, being injected with a drug, then waking in your cell with no ill effects other than a mild headache, perhaps, but knowing that in all likelihood you've told your interrogators everything you knew.

Which would you prefer?

Torture, of any sort, is not only cruel and inhumane, it's virtually useless. Any information gotten from it cannot be trusted because the victims will usually say whatever they think you want to hear, just to make you stop, even if only for a short while. Drugs, psychology and even hypnosis are far more reliable and safe as an interrogation technique.

I agree with you 100%

[Mr.FixIt]

double posted dammit

[Mr.FixIt]

double posted dammit

[Mr.FixIt]

Water boarding, especially with the previous examples described here in this thread, SOUNDS QUITE EFFECTIVE!

Hate me if you will. But these people hate you more, and have for hundreds of years. They declared war on us hundreds of years ago, and we still haven't woken up to realize it and face it. They will kill themselves to kill you, your families, your children. So what is a little torture? We're not killing them or their families, right? Their women, their children, and their men are trained to strap bombs to themselves and blow themselves up, in our airplanes, in our football stadiums, in our high school graduations--whatever event that might have a solid impact on the fear of our nation (Is this not torture?). Why? Because they hate us. Period. They hated us long before we needed their oil, in fact, before we even knew what oil might be used for. So please don't even try to make that point. (And, Yes, I hate Bush too!!!)

Imagine that while you are at work tomorrow, an airplane flies into the side of the building that you work in, or that your wife works in, or where your daughter is in daycare, and you (or your loved one) and 3,000 other poor souls are dead by the afternoon. Imagine that you are the child of one of those poor dead souls and you have to live with this for the rest of your life. Imagine that you are one who doesn't know if their loved one made it through the horrors that have taken place, walking the streets, looking at bulletin boards to see if you still have the possibility of a life with your Master/slave, submissive/Dom(me), husband/wife, children, whatever-it's all fucking over anyway. Imagine being the ones who watched as their family members' hands, cell phones still in grasp, were found in the rubble at ground zero, NYC, USA. Right here, under the flag, where the torture of a nation began. And imagine that you could have prevented it all with a water hose and some fucking rope, with a technique that is not deadly, but very frightening (sounds a bit like BDSM now, doesn't it?).

Now, imagine that you didn't get that hose out because other people might think it's too cruel. Could you live with your action...or lack thereof?

Imagine that you are in an airplane (Flight 93 Maybe?) and you know that you are headed for the side of a building. Imagine that you had the choice of water boarding the fucker with the plan in mind and you chose not to because you had a little moral dilema with the whole issue. Imagine that you could have prevented the whole situation for all of the American families involved, but you chose to do the "right thing" and now you have to live with your weak-assed, humanity lovin', PC (politically correct) decision for the rest of your life. I say, "Let's Roll!"

Imagine that Timothy McVeigh had been water boarded during interrogation prior to the incidents at OKC. (The attack that claimed 168 lives and left over 800 injured). How might that have changed history?

Imagine that you knew that your next door neighbor intended to mutilate, rape, and destroy your family simply because of his extremist religious beliefs, and you had no defense against it. Would you water board (regardless of the congressional definition of torture) the mother-fucker to prevent it from happening, or would that be taking it easy on the poor defenseless son-of-a bitch?

I say water board on! If it saves my family, my neighbors, my neighborhood, my city...water board on! Make it an extreme sport. Sign me up--I own a waterhose and everything! Put it on a reality TV show--Like snowboarding, rock climbing, or tornado chasing, or whatever. I'd watch it. It would be better entertainment than "Fear Factor" or "Survivor!"

Bear in mind that we do not send video tapes of torture to the families of the poor slobs after the water boarding, like our families have the privilege to watch the torture and beheadings of our loved ones on CNN (Chicken Noodle News), or youtube (where you can watch the beheading of Saddam).

You're damn right we're better than them! And you're damn right we're the good guys.

Moderators and fellow forum members: My intent is not to "flame". Please note that I am not directing my opinions towards any of the previous posts. But, I feel VERY strongly about this one, and I am only expressing my freedom of speech, as an American, that is guaranteed through such tactics as water boarding or whatever!

Obviously, I am speaking to the BDSM community, where we have limits, rules, and consent--that we all agree upon. Of course, water boarding would be way outside of what we might agree to (depending on how far you take it). So, if water boarding is too much, bring these fuckers to my house, and I will whip their fucking asses into confession and submission. BUT, SOMEONE ELSE would think that this would be too "cruel and unusual" as well.

I say, whatever it takes to protect my family, my freedom, and my life is acceptable by me, and I support the honorable efforts of the soldiers that are risking their lives to ensure our American freedoms. Fuck the PC movement!

Sincerely,

Christopher L. ____________
SPC, U.S. Army Veteran, 1st Infantry Division
(time served dammit!)

[Krougar]

lol I didn't want to make this my first post but after reading this thread I feel I have to.

America without American values is no longer America, better to die standing for something then to live for nothing.

[Thorne]

Sorry, Mr.FixIt. I have to disagree with many of your statements.

Hate me if you will. But these people hate you more, and have for hundreds of years. They declared war on us hundreds of years ago, and we still haven't woken up to realize it and face it. They will kill themselves to kill you, your families, your children. So what is a little torture? We're not killing them or their families, right? Their women, their children, and their men are trained to strap bombs to themselves and blow themselves up, in our airplanes, in our football stadiums, in our high school graduations--whatever event that might have a solid impact on the fear of our nation (Is this not torture?). Why? Because they hate us. Period.

You paint with a broad brush here. The vast majority of "these people" are simple, peace-loving, hard working human beings who deplore much of the atrocities which are being committed in their names. It's only a handful of Muslim extremists who are trying to terrorize the rest of the world simply because their beliefs are in the minority. And let's not forget, it's us (Christians) who started this mess by launching the Crusades.

Now, imagine that you didn't get that hose out because other people might think it's too cruel. Could you live with your action...or lack thereof?

So, we should torture anyone we even think might be a threat, based only upon their religion, or the color of their skin, or perhaps the color of their hair, or eyes? Or maybe anyone who doesn't speak English? That's absurd! Do you really think that kidnapping some poor farmer from his fields, transporting him thousands of miles from his home, then torturing him for hours and hours is going to get you information? The guy doesn't know anything! He's just a farmer! But you would go right on torturing him until you've either killed him or turned him into a vegetable, just because you THINK he might know something? That's nuts!

Imagine that you are in an airplane (Flight 93 Maybe?) and you know that you are headed for the side of a building. Imagine that you had the choice of water boarding the fucker with the plan in mind and you chose not to because you had a little moral dilema with the whole issue. Imagine that you could have prevented the whole situation for all of the American families involved, but you chose to do the "right thing" and now you have to live with your weak-assed, humanity lovin', PC (politically correct) decision for the rest of your life. I say, "Let's Roll!"

This is a completely different story. Here you are not looking for shadows under the bed, you have a tangible threat right in front of you. Yet you would rather torture some guy while his cronies fly the plane into the building? Fuck that! "Let's Roll" indeed! Charge the cockpit, try to regain control of the plane, just as those heroes on Flight 93 did. With luck, you capture and/or kill the terrorists and regain the plane. At worst, as really happened, the terrorists fly the plane into the ground, preventing even worse loss of life. But torturing a guy to get the plan while the plane is diving on the building isn't going to accomplish anything.

Imagine that Timothy McVeigh had been water boarded during interrogation prior to the incidents at OKC. (The attack that claimed 168 lives and left over 800 injured). How might that have changed history?

Forgive me if I'm wrong, but was McVeigh suspected of being a home-grown terrorist prior to his actions? I don't believe so. So you're saying we should have tortured him anyway, just in case? That would justify our government being able to pick anyone up off the streets, including your wife, or your daughter, and allow them to torture them just in case they were planning a terrorist attack. Which brings us to:

Imagine that you knew that your next door neighbor intended to mutilate, rape, and destroy your family simply because of his extremist religious beliefs, and you had no defense against it. Would you water board (regardless of the congressional definition of torture) the mother-fucker to prevent it from happening, or would that be taking it easy on the poor defenseless son-of-a bitch?

What proof do you have that he's planning on doing this? Has he threatened you? Or them? Has he been recruiting people to help him attack your home? Has he done anything other than spout what you consider to be "extremist religious beliefs"? If so, then you have a right to defend your family. So kill the bastard! Or turn him over to the police. What's the point in torturing him if you already know what he's going to do? Or perhaps you only suspect he's planning this? Then the obvious course of action is to torture his wife and his children to learn what he's planning. They may not know anything, but what the hell! You're protecting your family!

Bear in mind that we do not send video tapes of torture to the families of the poor slobs after the water boarding, like our families have the privilege to watch the torture and beheadings of our loved ones on CNN (Chicken Noodle News), or youtube (where you can watch the beheading of Saddam).
You're damn right we're better than them! And you're damn right we're the good guys.

How does emulating our enemies make us better than them? You say that we don't show tapes of the torture and murder of our victims, yet you advocate doing just that! That doesn't make you one of the "good guys", that makes you one of them!

I say, whatever it takes to protect my family, my freedom, and my life is acceptable by me, and I support the honorable efforts of the soldiers that are risking their lives to ensure our American freedoms. Fuck the PC movement!

I, too support the honorable efforts of the soldiers. I especially support those honorable men and women who are leaking information about the atrocities committed at Guantanamo Bay, in my name, by a government which is getting out of control. I can love my country without loving the people who are leading it. I have always honored those soldiers who have sacrificed so much in the defense of freedom. Even during the Viet Nam era, when it was "fashionable" to harangue and insult soldiers returning from war, I supported them and praised them for the work they did.
I do not support, will never support, those political and business leaders who allow such atrocities to happen, who send those young men and women out to fight a war to insure their profits, who permit and encourage illegal and immoral acts in the name of National Security.
And as for religious extremists, I am far more concerned with the actions of the Christian Right Wing fanatics right here in the US than I am with some poor Muslim store clerk in Baghdad.

[debaser]

Waterboarding is an interrogation technique. Basically, the person under investigation is tied down, their body declined. A rag is forced into the person's mouth and water is poured onto their face.

In my opinion, America should do what is necessary to protect her soldiers. I think waterboarding is an exceptable interrogation technique because it is not this brutal thing that everyone thinks it is. Its not like the person is having a finger cut off, or they are being flogged or electrocuted until they talk. I'm not saying that it is the best method, but it certainly isn't the worst. And it has been proven to work.

Now, if someone has a better way of getting information about from these guys, I'm all for it. But personally, i would rather have a human being think that he is choking to death, rather than having to beat the crap out of him. Either way, it sucks...but I think waterboarding is the lesser of the two evils.

So it would be perfectly acceptable for an al queda "freedom fighter" to torture an GI to get info on the next napalm strike on Theran?

[denuseri]

personally )and i am the daughter of a former marine gunerery sgt who happened to be a vietnam pow and he would say the same if he was still with us) wtf the united states of america is not suposed to condon torture of any kind what so ever, in that being the laying of hands on another to deliberatly harm them, etc,, we are supposed to be the good guys,, the very fact that we are even considering the legal technicalities of weather or not torture is torture speaks volumes about what our culture is becoming and frankly its not looking to be a good transition, sure the job is harder without some kinds of info, but that doesnt mean we lower ourselves to using the enemeys tactics, torture is wrong period

[mkemse]

Also, keep in mind who is allowing this to go on?? and interstingly enough when our current Attorney Genenral was being ask questions by congress before his confirmation, he even said "I will not pass judgment on whether Wateboarding is Torture or not, or if it should be allowed or not" keeping this in mind, remember who nominated him for Attorney General, with the current Adm. it seems that as long was what THEY do serves THEIR puporse, it makes no different what is legal, what is torture ect as long as THEY get the results THEY want also add into this the Bush is always talk about human rights,around the world like in in China and other countries, he believes in human rights and dignity yet he let's waterboarding go on, a bit hypocritical would you say he wants everyone to be treated in a humane fashion but allows Waterboarding

[denuseri]

lol, well what do u expect from a leader thats never really fought in a war to defend his country before?,, i think its a primary character flaw to have any commander in chief that has no experience in the military, (i know many will disagree) but only those that have stood next to one another with thier lives on the line understand the sacrifices made,, as for the hypocrisy well thats common now days,, after bold face lies told by prior presidents caught red handed, whats a lil truth bending today?,, arrrgh politicians make me sick,, i mean hell, we might as well vote for the sexiest president right? after all arent we just going to get fucked by whoever it is regardless? lmao

[denuseri]

so my new election of officals formula is: elect the one yu would like to fuck you the most,,,

[mkemse]

only time will tell

[MMI]

First thought (I've not read the whole thread, so apologies to anyone who has already made this point): no-one should vote FOR it until they've tried it.

Second: It's done everywhere, but when it's discovered, it should be punished harshly. We are SUPPOSED to be the "good guys" as someone said. Then let us make sure that anyone letting down the standards we aspire to is made to pay.

Third: It makes no difference that "the enemy" would do it to us. It's still wrong.

Fourth: "It's justifable because it's the only way to get information that might save lives." No it isn't! The ends do not justify the means, especially when it is not always certain what the "ends" might turn out to be.

I could go on ...

But no-one can justify it except to say that it's better than doing something worse. Well, of course!

[denuseri]

i so agree with you on this one MMI,,nice points too, i just think its a bad sign of the devalueing of our ethical compass that we obviously engadge as a country in theses activities, smh,, wtf ever happened to the geniva convention? My dad never liked to talk about being tortured when he was a pow, but every so often an old buddy of his from the corps would drop by and i would hear them talking in thier gruff voices through the wall of our living room where i had snuck off too to spy on em, and some of it was just terrible, but the real eye opener, was going to spokane at Fairchild AFB with my Husband/Master and taking a tour of the resisitance training corse at the survival school annex where he used to teach, and phewie,, the things they said where done to american pow's by the vietmanese and koreans was incredible,, i mean heck the nazis treated pows better,, but anyway i digress, our determination to be a leader in world politics, which we kinda took on after WW2 may partlly out of nessesity absolutly requires that We Set the Example,, that we dont do certian things like torture ,just becuz the other guy did etc,, we used to set that example too, now days we have fallen woefully short.

[Venom]

...i mean heck the nazis treated pows better

Well, but you (the USA) treated pows better, too. Of course, the US had tortured certain axis prisoners during and even after WWII. But the normal soldiers didn't go to places like Guantanamo Bay. A father's friend narrated of the "Fritz-Ritz", the US-camps for German POW's. They even were free to celebrate the "Führergeburtstag" (Birthday of Hitler, 20th of April).

[Captain]

Folks, these terrorists want to kill us. Kill all of us. Now they are trying to bankrupt the U.S. by controlling the price of oil. Now I agree with denuseri about her assessment of our politicians. They're the one's that got us into this mess by not allowing drilling on our own land, the building of new refineries, and the use of nuclear energy. Both parties are to blame for that! But our National Security must be our first priority, at whatever means!!! Without our National Security, we wouldn't be able to say these things without the fear of retribution. We're still the best country and best government in the world, and we need to maintain that status.

[mkemse]

Folks, these terrorists want to kill us. Kill all of us. Now they are trying to bankrupt the U.S. by controlling the price of oil. Now I agree with denuseri about her assessment of our politicians. They're the one's that got us into this mess by not allowing drilling on our own land, the building of new refineries, and the use of nuclear energy. Both parties are to blame for that! But our National Security must be our first priority, at whatever means!!! Without our National Security, we wouldn't be able to say these things without the fear of retribution. We're still the best country and best government in the world, and we need to maintain that status.

We can do that without Torturing Prisoners
If the Major Oil corporation can post $35 BILLION in Profits for 1 quarter and pay their CEO's $12-14 Million a years, they can bulid more refineries, they have their own land build them there, or upgrade the ones that they have and expand there capablities,
Any major Cororation that shows a $35 Billoin Profit for 3-4 months Pays their CEO's Over $10 Milloin a year while we pay $4.00+ for gas, i have no sympathy for the oil companies, they have the money to do what is needed, they simply won't build more, expand more refineries, that would at least be astart

[denuseri]

too true, plus allmost half that price of the gallon is infact generated by state and federal taxes, heck our county just raised a tax for gas to help pay for a public transportation system that is only used by a small portion of people in our inner city,, wtf am i paying extra for, i live like 20miles out,lol,, as for torture i am asstonished that any red blooded american would even consider it,,let alone condone it, like rome we americans have many jealous of our prosperity, its not a question of those who would be our enemies intentions, like the Japanese admiral suposably said just after pearl harbor "i fear we have awakened a sleeping giant" the bad guys should watch the f out,, but that doesnt mean we have to compromise the ethical standard that made our nation great to begin with by playing down to our opositions level

[Venom]

Reading all this a question comes to my mind: What if the CIA or who'ever is in charge got the wrong guy?

If one is running around, ready to bomb away a kindergarten and has deposit his package somewhere, well - shit on his rights and make him talk!
But hundreds or even thousands of innocent people has been abducted and interrogated. Known to be innocent because after some month(!) the US has declared them innocent and set them free. I don't think they let terrorists go...

[debaser]

"Beware while fighting monsters unles you become one too."