Waterboarding

[countrystud]

Waterboarding is an interrogation technique. Basically, the person under investigation is tied down, their body declined. A rag is forced into the person's mouth and water is poured onto their face.

In my opinion, America should do what is necessary to protect her soldiers. I think waterboarding is an exceptable interrogation technique because it is not this brutal thing that everyone thinks it is. Its not like the person is having a finger cut off, or they are being flogged or electrocuted until they talk. I'm not saying that it is the best method, but it certainly isn't the worst. And it has been proven to work.

Now, if someone has a better way of getting information about from these guys, I'm all for it. But personally, i would rather have a human being think that he is choking to death, rather than having to beat the crap out of him. Either way, it sucks...but I think waterboarding is the lesser of the two evils.

[Thorne]

I think waterboarding is an exceptable interrogation technique because it is not this brutal thing that everyone thinks it is. Its not like the person is having a finger cut off, or they are being flogged or electrocuted until they talk. I'm not saying that it is the best method, but it certainly isn't the worst. And it has been proven to work.

Now, if someone has a better way of getting information about from these guys, I'm all for it. But personally, i would rather have a human being think that he is choking to death, rather than having to beat the crap out of him. Either way, it sucks...but I think waterboarding is the lesser of the two evils.

I suggest you try a little experiment. Lie down in your shower or tub, place a cloth over your face and allow the water to pour (or even spray) over the cloth, while you hold your hand behind your back. No turning the head away to breath, just let the water soak the cloth. I would bet that you don't last too long before you either turn your head away or pull the cloth away, just so you can get a breath.

Now imagine that you cannot turn away, and your hands (and everything else for that matter) are tied down, unusable. And then imagine that this goes on for hour after hour, day after day, your tormentors only allowing you enough air to keep you alive and conscious, but never enough to quell the burning, searing ache in your lungs.

Or, you can imagine sitting in a chair, probably secured, but not necessarily, being injected with a drug, then waking in your cell with no ill effects other than a mild headache, perhaps, but knowing that in all likelihood you've told your interrogators everything you knew.

Which would you prefer?

Torture, of any sort, is not only cruel and inhumane, it's virtually useless. Any information gotten from it cannot be trusted because the victims will usually say whatever they think you want to hear, just to make you stop, even if only for a short while. Drugs, psychology and even hypnosis are far more reliable and safe as an interrogation technique.

[mkemse]

I suggest you try a little experiment. Lie down in your shower or tub, place a cloth over your face and allow the water to pour (or even spray) over the cloth, while you hold your hand behind your back. No turning the head away to breath, just let the water soak the cloth. I would bet that you don't last too long before you either turn your head away or pull the cloth away, just so you can get a breath.

Now imagine that you cannot turn away, and your hands (and everything else for that matter) are tied down, unusable. And then imagine that this goes on for hour after hour, day after day, your tormentors only allowing you enough air to keep you alive and conscious, but never enough to quell the burning, searing ache in your lungs.

Or, you can imagine sitting in a chair, probably secured, but not necessarily, being injected with a drug, then waking in your cell with no ill effects other than a mild headache, perhaps, but knowing that in all likelihood you've told your interrogators everything you knew.

Which would you prefer?

Torture, of any sort, is not only cruel and inhumane, it's virtually useless. Any information gotten from it cannot be trusted because the victims will usually say whatever they think you want to hear, just to make you stop, even if only for a short while. Drugs, psychology and even hypnosis are far more reliable and safe as an interrogation technique.

I agree with you 100%

[Mr.FixIt]

double posted dammit

[Mr.FixIt]

double posted dammit

[Mr.FixIt]

Water boarding, especially with the previous examples described here in this thread, SOUNDS QUITE EFFECTIVE!

Hate me if you will. But these people hate you more, and have for hundreds of years. They declared war on us hundreds of years ago, and we still haven't woken up to realize it and face it. They will kill themselves to kill you, your families, your children. So what is a little torture? We're not killing them or their families, right? Their women, their children, and their men are trained to strap bombs to themselves and blow themselves up, in our airplanes, in our football stadiums, in our high school graduations--whatever event that might have a solid impact on the fear of our nation (Is this not torture?). Why? Because they hate us. Period. They hated us long before we needed their oil, in fact, before we even knew what oil might be used for. So please don't even try to make that point. (And, Yes, I hate Bush too!!!)

Imagine that while you are at work tomorrow, an airplane flies into the side of the building that you work in, or that your wife works in, or where your daughter is in daycare, and you (or your loved one) and 3,000 other poor souls are dead by the afternoon. Imagine that you are the child of one of those poor dead souls and you have to live with this for the rest of your life. Imagine that you are one who doesn't know if their loved one made it through the horrors that have taken place, walking the streets, looking at bulletin boards to see if you still have the possibility of a life with your Master/slave, submissive/Dom(me), husband/wife, children, whatever-it's all fucking over anyway. Imagine being the ones who watched as their family members' hands, cell phones still in grasp, were found in the rubble at ground zero, NYC, USA. Right here, under the flag, where the torture of a nation began. And imagine that you could have prevented it all with a water hose and some fucking rope, with a technique that is not deadly, but very frightening (sounds a bit like BDSM now, doesn't it?).

Now, imagine that you didn't get that hose out because other people might think it's too cruel. Could you live with your action...or lack thereof?

Imagine that you are in an airplane (Flight 93 Maybe?) and you know that you are headed for the side of a building. Imagine that you had the choice of water boarding the fucker with the plan in mind and you chose not to because you had a little moral dilema with the whole issue. Imagine that you could have prevented the whole situation for all of the American families involved, but you chose to do the "right thing" and now you have to live with your weak-assed, humanity lovin', PC (politically correct) decision for the rest of your life. I say, "Let's Roll!"

Imagine that Timothy McVeigh had been water boarded during interrogation prior to the incidents at OKC. (The attack that claimed 168 lives and left over 800 injured). How might that have changed history?

Imagine that you knew that your next door neighbor intended to mutilate, rape, and destroy your family simply because of his extremist religious beliefs, and you had no defense against it. Would you water board (regardless of the congressional definition of torture) the mother-fucker to prevent it from happening, or would that be taking it easy on the poor defenseless son-of-a bitch?

I say water board on! If it saves my family, my neighbors, my neighborhood, my city...water board on! Make it an extreme sport. Sign me up--I own a waterhose and everything! Put it on a reality TV show--Like snowboarding, rock climbing, or tornado chasing, or whatever. I'd watch it. It would be better entertainment than "Fear Factor" or "Survivor!"

Bear in mind that we do not send video tapes of torture to the families of the poor slobs after the water boarding, like our families have the privilege to watch the torture and beheadings of our loved ones on CNN (Chicken Noodle News), or youtube (where you can watch the beheading of Saddam).

You're damn right we're better than them! And you're damn right we're the good guys.

Moderators and fellow forum members: My intent is not to "flame". Please note that I am not directing my opinions towards any of the previous posts. But, I feel VERY strongly about this one, and I am only expressing my freedom of speech, as an American, that is guaranteed through such tactics as water boarding or whatever!

Obviously, I am speaking to the BDSM community, where we have limits, rules, and consent--that we all agree upon. Of course, water boarding would be way outside of what we might agree to (depending on how far you take it). So, if water boarding is too much, bring these fuckers to my house, and I will whip their fucking asses into confession and submission. BUT, SOMEONE ELSE would think that this would be too "cruel and unusual" as well.

I say, whatever it takes to protect my family, my freedom, and my life is acceptable by me, and I support the honorable efforts of the soldiers that are risking their lives to ensure our American freedoms. Fuck the PC movement!

Sincerely,

Christopher L. ____________
SPC, U.S. Army Veteran, 1st Infantry Division
(time served dammit!)

[Krougar]

lol I didn't want to make this my first post but after reading this thread I feel I have to.

America without American values is no longer America, better to die standing for something then to live for nothing.

[Thorne]

Sorry, Mr.FixIt. I have to disagree with many of your statements.

Hate me if you will. But these people hate you more, and have for hundreds of years. They declared war on us hundreds of years ago, and we still haven't woken up to realize it and face it. They will kill themselves to kill you, your families, your children. So what is a little torture? We're not killing them or their families, right? Their women, their children, and their men are trained to strap bombs to themselves and blow themselves up, in our airplanes, in our football stadiums, in our high school graduations--whatever event that might have a solid impact on the fear of our nation (Is this not torture?). Why? Because they hate us. Period.

You paint with a broad brush here. The vast majority of "these people" are simple, peace-loving, hard working human beings who deplore much of the atrocities which are being committed in their names. It's only a handful of Muslim extremists who are trying to terrorize the rest of the world simply because their beliefs are in the minority. And let's not forget, it's us (Christians) who started this mess by launching the Crusades.

Now, imagine that you didn't get that hose out because other people might think it's too cruel. Could you live with your action...or lack thereof?

So, we should torture anyone we even think might be a threat, based only upon their religion, or the color of their skin, or perhaps the color of their hair, or eyes? Or maybe anyone who doesn't speak English? That's absurd! Do you really think that kidnapping some poor farmer from his fields, transporting him thousands of miles from his home, then torturing him for hours and hours is going to get you information? The guy doesn't know anything! He's just a farmer! But you would go right on torturing him until you've either killed him or turned him into a vegetable, just because you THINK he might know something? That's nuts!

Imagine that you are in an airplane (Flight 93 Maybe?) and you know that you are headed for the side of a building. Imagine that you had the choice of water boarding the fucker with the plan in mind and you chose not to because you had a little moral dilema with the whole issue. Imagine that you could have prevented the whole situation for all of the American families involved, but you chose to do the "right thing" and now you have to live with your weak-assed, humanity lovin', PC (politically correct) decision for the rest of your life. I say, "Let's Roll!"

This is a completely different story. Here you are not looking for shadows under the bed, you have a tangible threat right in front of you. Yet you would rather torture some guy while his cronies fly the plane into the building? Fuck that! "Let's Roll" indeed! Charge the cockpit, try to regain control of the plane, just as those heroes on Flight 93 did. With luck, you capture and/or kill the terrorists and regain the plane. At worst, as really happened, the terrorists fly the plane into the ground, preventing even worse loss of life. But torturing a guy to get the plan while the plane is diving on the building isn't going to accomplish anything.

Imagine that Timothy McVeigh had been water boarded during interrogation prior to the incidents at OKC. (The attack that claimed 168 lives and left over 800 injured). How might that have changed history?

Forgive me if I'm wrong, but was McVeigh suspected of being a home-grown terrorist prior to his actions? I don't believe so. So you're saying we should have tortured him anyway, just in case? That would justify our government being able to pick anyone up off the streets, including your wife, or your daughter, and allow them to torture them just in case they were planning a terrorist attack. Which brings us to:

Imagine that you knew that your next door neighbor intended to mutilate, rape, and destroy your family simply because of his extremist religious beliefs, and you had no defense against it. Would you water board (regardless of the congressional definition of torture) the mother-fucker to prevent it from happening, or would that be taking it easy on the poor defenseless son-of-a bitch?

What proof do you have that he's planning on doing this? Has he threatened you? Or them? Has he been recruiting people to help him attack your home? Has he done anything other than spout what you consider to be "extremist religious beliefs"? If so, then you have a right to defend your family. So kill the bastard! Or turn him over to the police. What's the point in torturing him if you already know what he's going to do? Or perhaps you only suspect he's planning this? Then the obvious course of action is to torture his wife and his children to learn what he's planning. They may not know anything, but what the hell! You're protecting your family!

Bear in mind that we do not send video tapes of torture to the families of the poor slobs after the water boarding, like our families have the privilege to watch the torture and beheadings of our loved ones on CNN (Chicken Noodle News), or youtube (where you can watch the beheading of Saddam).
You're damn right we're better than them! And you're damn right we're the good guys.

How does emulating our enemies make us better than them? You say that we don't show tapes of the torture and murder of our victims, yet you advocate doing just that! That doesn't make you one of the "good guys", that makes you one of them!

I say, whatever it takes to protect my family, my freedom, and my life is acceptable by me, and I support the honorable efforts of the soldiers that are risking their lives to ensure our American freedoms. Fuck the PC movement!

I, too support the honorable efforts of the soldiers. I especially support those honorable men and women who are leaking information about the atrocities committed at Guantanamo Bay, in my name, by a government which is getting out of control. I can love my country without loving the people who are leading it. I have always honored those soldiers who have sacrificed so much in the defense of freedom. Even during the Viet Nam era, when it was "fashionable" to harangue and insult soldiers returning from war, I supported them and praised them for the work they did.
I do not support, will never support, those political and business leaders who allow such atrocities to happen, who send those young men and women out to fight a war to insure their profits, who permit and encourage illegal and immoral acts in the name of National Security.
And as for religious extremists, I am far more concerned with the actions of the Christian Right Wing fanatics right here in the US than I am with some poor Muslim store clerk in Baghdad.

[stripedangel]

How does emulating our enemies make us better than them? You say that we don't show tapes of the torture and murder of our victims, yet you advocate doing just that! That doesn't make you one of the "good guys", that makes you one of them!

I think you misunderstood this one.....no one is advocating sending tapes out to families...the point to this was to say that when they torture our soldiers, their families must live through that torture as well, because tapes are sent out to them, and it's posted on the web. We don't do that. And think about what is on THOSE tapes....electrocution, cutting, amputation, beatings, hammers used to smash limbs, torches used to burn the flesh. They are not just torturing one person, they are torturing the person's entire family. We're not talking about the store clerk here. We're talking about extremists.


i KNOW how these people feel about us-even Mr. Store Clerk, who flies out of the airport to his homeland, carrying thousands of dollars-enough that they must declare it, which means more than $10,000...it's going where our oil money is already going! Store Clerk looks at me across the counter, and solemnly berated the country where he has gained this mass amount of money(as well as the gold rings that he has on all of his fingers, his watch, and his wife's adornments), berated me for being an infadel, and cursed my children. All after i'd gone the extra mile to treat him with respect and serve his needs as my customer. Think he's an anomole? Wrong, i've got countless stories of the same nature from the year and a half that i worked at the airport.
EVERY one of them has treated me like i'm a piece of shit--in MY country, on MY terf, paying with MY country's currency that they saved up with the help of MY government-no taxes due for 5 years because they opened a business here. i saw one man once a week, carrying at least 10 grand in his wallet-wonder how much was in his suitcase? But he's just taking ALL of that to care for his poor family back home.


Waterboarding is frightening. Sure. But we could do MUCH worse. If the schoolyard bully gets after you at school, and you tell on him, he's gonna beat you up...but if you knock him out, he'll leave you alone. These guys don't care if you knock them out, so long as you go down with them. Kind and gentle does no good. If it did, we would be doing that instead, since you can catch more flies with honey, and diplomacy goes a long way....except when they believe that you're the devil, and have since biblical times.

[Thorne]

I think you misunderstood this one.....no one is advocating sending tapes out to families...the point to this was to say that when they torture our soldiers, their families must live through that torture as well, because tapes are sent out to them, and it's posted on the web. We don't do that. And think about what is on THOSE tapes....electrocution, cutting, amputation, beatings, hammers used to smash limbs, torches used to burn the flesh. They are not just torturing one person, they are torturing the person's entire family. We're not talking about the store clerk here. We're talking about extremists.

Mr.FixIt said in his post, "Put it on a reality TV show--Like snowboarding, rock climbing, or tornado chasing, or whatever. I'd watch it. It would be better entertainment than "Fear Factor" or "Survivor!" While not the same as sending it to their families, how is it any different than posting it on the web?

As for your experiences with these people, I agree, that there is a serious problem here in this country with our immigration laws. We let these people send, or take the money away without penalty. Almost any other country in the world it would be against the law, resulting in long term imprisonment. That doesn't make them terrorists, any more than gay-bashers are terrorists, or anti-semites. They could be terrorists, but that has yet to be proven. Besides, when they are treated like shit just because they are Muslim, why should we expect them to treat us any better? What goes around, comes around.

Waterboarding is frightening. Sure. But we could do MUCH worse.

That would be like kicking a guy in the head to put him in a coma, then saying, "Hey, it's not that bad! I could have killed him!"
Either way, it's wrong. Especially since the majority of those people being tortured down in Cuba are not proven terrorists or sympathizers. Many of them are just ordinary people who happen to be Muslim.

If the schoolyard bully gets after you at school, and you tell on him, he's gonna beat you up...but if you knock him out, he'll leave you alone. These guys don't care if you knock them out, so long as you go down with them. Kind and gentle does no good. If it did, we would be doing that instead, since you can catch more flies with honey, and diplomacy goes a long way....except when they believe that you're the devil, and have since biblical times.

Again, that sounds all well and good, but make sure you take out the real bully, not some guy who lives in the same neighborhood. Part of the problem with dealing with terrorists as that its damned near impossible to take them out without a lot of collateral damage. It's not like being at war with a country and dropping bombs indiscriminately on the enemy cities. While they may not like us, might even hate us, most of the people in those cities hate the terrorists just as much, until we move in and start throwing our weight around, virtually forcing them to side with the terrorists.

Remember, now, I'm not saying we shouldn't interrogate the prisoners. All I'm saying is that torture has historically been shown to be the worst method for gathering intelligence. Especially in modern times, drugs and psychology can get you more reliable information, more quickly, and with less negative feedback than torture. Then, once you've gotten the information and proven that the subject was a member of a terrorist organization, go ahead and kill the bastard! Just do it humanely. Most of us wouldn't treat a rabid dog the way we treat these suspects.

And also remember, once we allow our government to virtually kidnap people off the streets and lock them away for interrogation with no evidence against them other than their race or color, we are opening the doors to having ourselves and our families treated the same way, for any reason some government agency might concoct, or for no reason at all. That way lies totalitarianism. And the end of the United States as we know them.

[Mr.FixIt]

Sorry, Mr.FixIt. I have to disagree with many of your statements.

You paint with a broad brush here. The vast majority of "these people" are simple, peace-loving, hard working human beings who deplore much of the atrocities which are being committed in their names. It's only a handful of Muslim extremists who are trying to terrorize the rest of the world simply because their beliefs are in the minority. And let's not forget, it's us (Christians) who started this mess by launching the Crusades.

It's the (handful of?) extremists that I'm referring to here. The handful that will proudly kill you, me, our families, etc. I do not believe that "peace loving, hard working human beings" are being water boarded. Let's focus on what and whom we are talking about here.

"Cursades?" What the hell do you call a gihad? I didn't start a gihad, I'm sure that you didn't start a gihad, did you? But let's not make this about religion. Please note that I didn't mention religion (or musims in particular) at any point in my response. Why would you assume that I was talking about muslims? I was talking about the same "handful (tens of thousands) of extremists" that you were talking about.

Again, that sounds all well and good, but make sure you take out the real bully, not some guy who lives in the same neighborhood. Part of the problem with dealing with terrorists as that its damned near impossible to take them out without a lot of collateral damage. It's not like being at war with a country and dropping bombs indiscriminately on the enemy cities. While they may not like us, might even hate us, most of the people in those cities hate the terrorists just as much, until we move in and start throwing our weight around, virtually forcing them to side with the terrorists.

You're exactly right! That's why we're water boarding one fucker, and not bombing the whole town!

[Thorne]

It's the (handful of?) extremists that I'm referring to here. The handful that will proudly kill you, me, our families, etc. I do not believe that "peace loving, hard working human beings" are being water boarded. Let's focus on what and whom we are talking about here.

It's easy to believe that innocent people aren't being tortured, but the fact is that the majority of those being held in Guantanamo Bay have not been proven to be terrorists. We would like to believe that they are there because they did something which makes us believe they are terrorists, but it's my belief that some of them are there simply because of their race or religion. That is unacceptable to me. I should be unacceptable to all of us. That's what our country was founded upon.

"Cursades?" What the hell do you call a gihad? I didn't start a gihad, I'm sure that you didn't start a gihad, did you? But let's not make this about religion. Please note that I didn't mention religion (or musims in particular) at any point in my response. Why would you assume that I was talking about muslims? I was talking about the same "handful (tens of thousands) of extremists" that you were talking about.

I used the Crusades to explain part of the reason why things are the way they are in the Middle East. And why going in there and blasting away indiscriminately will not solve the problem, only make things worse. And let's face, at this time the biggest terrorist threat to the world does seem to be Muslim fanatics. It has nothing to do with true religion, though, just happens to be a fact.

You're exactly right! That's why we're water boarding one fucker, and not bombing the whole town!

But that's my whole point! We've selected one person from the town and are torturing him to find out things he doesn't know, while the real threat is back home rousing the rest of the town against us for our inhumanity. And planning his next strike against us. All I'm trying to say is, make sure the guy you've arrested and are holding (illegally, by the way) is one of the bad guys, and not some innocent bystander.

[debaser]

Waterboarding is an interrogation technique. Basically, the person under investigation is tied down, their body declined. A rag is forced into the person's mouth and water is poured onto their face.

In my opinion, America should do what is necessary to protect her soldiers. I think waterboarding is an exceptable interrogation technique because it is not this brutal thing that everyone thinks it is. Its not like the person is having a finger cut off, or they are being flogged or electrocuted until they talk. I'm not saying that it is the best method, but it certainly isn't the worst. And it has been proven to work.

Now, if someone has a better way of getting information about from these guys, I'm all for it. But personally, i would rather have a human being think that he is choking to death, rather than having to beat the crap out of him. Either way, it sucks...but I think waterboarding is the lesser of the two evils.

So it would be perfectly acceptable for an al queda "freedom fighter" to torture an GI to get info on the next napalm strike on Theran?