Fate

[thir]

Fate, destiny, kismet, karma, wyrd..

Do we control our lives, or is there a path laid out for us?

'Kismet' seems to mean both the will of Allah, and a fate not influenced by any God.

'Karma': "In theistic schools of Hinduism, humans have free will to choose good or evil and suffer the consequences, which require the will of God to implement karma's consequences, unlike Buddhism or Jainism which do not accord any role to a supreme God or gods. In Eastern beliefs, the karmic effects of all deeds are viewed as actively shaping past, present, and future experiences." (Wikepedia)

So karma means free will, but what you do shapes what happens next, with or without a god involved.

'Destiny': "Destiny may be seen either as a fixed sequence of events that is inevitable and unchangeable, or that individuals choose their own destiny by choosing different paths throughout their life." (Wikepedia)

So destiny is used both as an expression of free will, and as the idea that the path is laid out before you from the start.

'Fate' seems to refer to "an inevitable course of events" (Wikepedia)
"a. The supposed force, principle, or power that predetermines events.
b. The inevitable events predestined by this force."((http://www.thefreedictionary.com/fate)

'Wyrd': "is a concept in Anglo-Saxon culture roughly corresponding to fate or personal destiny".

An finally an extract from an article on 'wyrd':
For example, say I happen to find myself in a situation where someone insults me. I can "freely" choose any one of a number of immediate reactions, from ignoring the person to slapping her. But my choice at that moment is obviously going to be constrained by a number of patterns of wyrd already in place, including my inborn personality characteristics, my social conditioning, my past experiences with being insulted, my relationship with the person who has insulted me, even my hormone levels.

To the extent that my reaction is determined by these patterns, wyrd is shaping my life at that moment, and my reaction may feel to me as though it were predestined (if I want to deny responsibility) or the only "right" choice (if I want to claim responsibility for it). To the extent that I am aware of certain recurring patterns in my life, I might feel as though the person was fated to insult me at that moment. But no matter which way I chose to react to the insult, my reaction will add to the patterns in place and constrain my future actions (if I'm insulted a second time, my reaction will be determined in part by how I behaved when I was insulted the first time.) So, at the same time I am caught up in experiencing certain patterns of wyrd, I am creating them.

Moving from the personal to the universal, my reaction will also add to the patterns affecting the behaviour of the person who insulted me. As a result of my response, she may change her behaviour towards others which will, in turn, change her personal ørlög, and so on. Ultimately, each little choice we make affects universal forces which can come back to affect us in weird ways. The larger patterns of wyrd created by individuals in a particular time and place is the source of the zeitgeist (spirit of the age) which informs the beliefs and behaviour of everyone in a society. Thus, "that which has become", wyrd, both creates and is created by individual actions, states, and choices. "
(http://www.wyrdwords.vispa.com/heathenry/whatwyrd.html)

So, what do you think? Do we have choices, or don't we? Is everything written? Do the god(s) decide? Is there a natural law or a cosmic law of consequence?

[denuseri]

It doesnt really matter if predestination is in fact in effect or not; from our limited perspective we still must make choices.

[Thorne]

Do we control our lives, or is there a path laid out for us?
So, what do you think? Do we have choices, or don't we? Is everything written?

We certainly try to control our lives, picking and choosing among the almost infinite number of paths we see ahead of us. We can hope that the choices we do make will lead us down the path we want, but there are no guarantees. There are too many random events which are beyond our control, or the control of anyone else, to accurately predict where any one choice will take us.

Is there a natural law or a cosmic law of consequence?

I guess the only law of consequence I would accept is my own, personal "faith":
If you ignore the laws of nature they'll eventually bite you in the ass.

[leo9]

'Karma': "In theistic schools of Hinduism, humans have free will to choose good or evil and suffer the consequences, which require the will of God to implement karma's consequences, unlike Buddhism or Jainism which do not accord any role to a supreme God or gods. In Eastern beliefs, the karmic effects of all deeds are viewed as actively shaping past, present, and future experiences." (Wikepedia)

So karma means free will, but what you do shapes what happens next, with or without a god involved.

Or as Thorne says, free will with consequences. The only argument is over how the consequences operate, and whether, say, harm done to others will do you harm in the end even if no human justice can reach you.

'Wyrd': "is a concept in Anglo-Saxon culture roughly corresponding to fate or personal destiny".

An finally an extract from an article on 'wyrd':
For example, say I happen to find myself in a situation where someone insults me. I can "freely" choose any one of a number of immediate reactions, from ignoring the person to slapping her. But my choice at that moment is obviously going to be constrained by a number of patterns of wyrd already in place, including my inborn personality characteristics, my social conditioning, my past experiences with being insulted, my relationship with the person who has insulted me, even my hormone levels.

To the extent that my reaction is determined by these patterns, wyrd is shaping my life at that moment, and my reaction may feel to me as though it were predestined (if I want to deny responsibility) or the only "right" choice (if I want to claim responsibility for it). To the extent that I am aware of certain recurring patterns in my life, I might feel as though the person was fated to insult me at that moment. But no matter which way I chose to react to the insult, my reaction will add to the patterns in place and constrain my future actions (if I'm insulted a second time, my reaction will be determined in part by how I behaved when I was insulted the first time.) So, at the same time I am caught up in experiencing certain patterns of wyrd, I am creating them.

Moving from the personal to the universal, my reaction will also add to the patterns affecting the behaviour of the person who insulted me. As a result of my response, she may change her behaviour towards others which will, in turn, change her personal ørlög, and so on. Ultimately, each little choice we make affects universal forces which can come back to affect us in weird ways. The larger patterns of wyrd created by individuals in a particular time and place is the source of the zeitgeist (spirit of the age) which informs the beliefs and behaviour of everyone in a society. Thus, "that which has become", wyrd, both creates and is created by individual actions, states, and choices. "
(http://www.wyrdwords.vispa.com/heathenry/whatwyrd.html)

Thir forgot to make clear that this is a modern interpretation, which doesn't exactly fit what little we know of the ancients' beliefs. The clearest expression of the Nordic view of fate that has come down to us is the Völuspá, in which a seeress tells Odin how the world will end: the Volva tells him how he and many other Aesir will die, without any suggestion that they can avoid it. There are things that mortals can do to put off the end - mostly trivial things like trimming corpses' fingernails - but we can only make it a bit later, it will come eventually.

It is to be assumed that this translates into the same view of individual destiny. If Wyrd (sometimes personified as one of the Norns, the spinners of men's lives) has decided that you are to be poor and enslaved, no amount of striving can lift you from the mud. On the other hand, if Wyrd has decided that a slave shall become a hero nothing can stand in his way, so since we none of us know what our fates are, it's worth trying!

But even when seen as an anthopomorphic personification, Wyrd is impersonal and unapprochable: nobody prays to her or hopes to change her mind, and even the Allfather accepts his fate as inevitable. Pray to the gods for help all you wish, but if Wyrd has ruled differently, all the gods can't change it. One consults seers, as Odin did, not to learn what to avoid, but what to accept.

Not, I may say, a view I share...

[catej88]

I think fate can have multiple sides. There are times when I think it is used to control people, to give hope for better/worse or else is pre-destined. I think fate can be both applied socially as well as spiritually.

Fate I sometimes like to think of it as a future and potential for life or where someone can go. I guess my view ultimately of fate is “what if?”. When I think of this I think of the times that people hear because of their background they will either do well or poorly in life and others that they can overcome their condition or past and do great things. For some people their past or circumstances are sometimes directly attached to their belief in their fate.

I would love to believe that I have complete control of my life but sadly our lives are attached to others. At times our decisions can effect others in the same way others lives effect us and because of that fate isn’t just our choices but others choices and ours combined. Throw in things that are completely out of our control and the possibility of fate scares me to death.

I think the scariest part is that we have the power to make things we do not want to happen to come true and sometimes after hearing things over and over we turn things that were just phrases into a truth and fact in our life. These are things that we never wanted to be there. At times I think fate is nothing more then a strong belief in something that we either make a truth and reality or else say “it wasn’t meant to be”. For me “fate” changes constantly and my belief isn’t absolute I still like to believe I have control but then I wonder again.

[denuseri]

And just FYI...did everyone know that in additonal to certian spiritualism based meditative sects and entire religious ethos that are based in part or whole on a way to explaining how some things work in existance from this perspective, there is also a type of science that looks to explore this observation as well becuase they too have come to a similar sumation.

[thir]

And just FYI...did everyone know that in additonal to certian spiritualism based meditative sects and entire religious ethos that are based in part or whole on a way to explaining how some things work in existance from this perspective, there is also a type of science that looks to explore this observation as well becuase they too have come to a similar sumation.

No, I have never heard of that. Any more info? Links?

[denuseri]

Its called noetics. (the science part anyway...the spiritualism and religious references would take a far greater amount of time to produce but Lemme see if I can stir up any links for the sci)

Ahhhh Here are some:

http://www.noetic.org/

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Institu...oetic_Sciences



Noetic theory or noëtics (from Greek νοητικός "mental" from νοεῖν "to think" from νοῦς - noûs) is a branch of metaphysical philosophy and science concerned with the study of mind and intuition, and its relationship with the divine intellect. Among its principal purposes is to study the effects of perceptions, beliefs, and intention with respect to human consciousness.

The theory of noetics centers around the idea that the human mind is capable of affecting or even doing work to the physical world. It is suggested that thought and spirit are not in fact imaginary, but Bose or photon based, meaning essentially that the mind can be quantified by formulae which describe quantum materials such as light. This is a radical conclusion where many people think thoughts are weightless. Just as gravity affects all matter, so do thoughts to an apparent lesser degree.

Funny when one can see science and religion come full circle without clashing isnt it.

[Thorne]

Noetic theory or noëtics (from Greek νοητικός "mental" from νοεῖν "to think" from νοῦς - noûs) is a branch of metaphysical philosophy and science concerned with the study of mind and intuition, and its relationship with the divine intellect. Among its principal purposes is to study the effects of perceptions, beliefs, and intention with respect to human consciousness.

Metaphysics is a branch of philosophy, not hard science. If they are studying whether perceptions, beliefs and intentions affect how we respond to stimuli, then yes, I think the answer is rather obvious. I'm not sure if they could determine just how these effects are produced, or in what proportions they combine to cause the effects. I would think you would need to completely map all of the synaptic passageways of the brain to even begin to predict what a person's responses would be, and even then it would only be valid for that one individual, since we are all different. General trends, perhaps, can be determined, but isn't that what philosophy and psychology are already doing?

The theory of noetics centers around the idea that the human mind is capable of affecting or even doing work to the physical world. It is suggested that thought and spirit are not in fact imaginary, but Bose or photon based, meaning essentially that the mind can be quantified by formulae which describe quantum materials such as light. This is a radical conclusion where many people think thoughts are weightless. Just as gravity affects all matter, so do thoughts to an apparent lesser degree.

Now here we seem to be delving into the arena of hard science. Maybe. Have they actually measured these photons? I'm not sure what you mean by "Bose based", unless you're referring to bosons? And if they have detected them, have they determined whether or not they are the basis of thought, or the effects of thought? What frequency of photons would the brain produce? And most importantly, what evidence is there to show that thoughts directly affect matter?

Funny when one can see science and religion come full circle without clashing isnt it.

I'm not yet sure whether or not noetics will have any bearing on scientific thought. It's certainly in its infancy and I don't know if any actual relevant data has been produced or evaluated. From what I've read so far it seems to be more akin to astrology and ESP, though, not religion. In fact, if they are able to prove what they claim I would think this would be another stroke against religious thought, rather than for it.

[leo9]

In fact, if they are able to prove what they claim I would think this would be another stroke against religious thought, rather than for it.

This is a tricky one, isn't it? If we could show the existence of God by measuring "divine influence" or "divine presence" by some kind of theometer, we'd have proved that He/She was part of the material world... and therefore not divine by most people's definition.

I'm reminded of Douglas Adam's argument that a real, incontrovertible miracle would be final proof of the non-existence of God:
"I refuse to prove I exist," says God, "because proof denies faith and without faith I am nothing."
"Ah," says Man, "but the Babel Fish is a dead giveaway. It proves you exist, therefore you don't. QED."
"Oh, I hadn't thought of that," says God, and vanishes in a puff of logic.
"Oh, that was easy," says Man, and for an encore proves that black is white and is run over on a zebra crossing.
(The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy)

But seriously, it's hard to think of any manifestation that wouldn't reduce the divinity to a science-fiction super-being on the lines of Galactus. I guess that's why I'm happier to know my Goddess in my heart, but not expect Her to leave footprints in the material world.

[Thorne]

I guess that's why I'm happier to know my Goddess in my heart, but not expect Her to leave footprints in the material world.

So once again it's a matter of faith. You cannot prove she exists, while I cannot prove that she doesn't.

But if she doesn't "leave footprints in the material world" how can you know what she wants? Does she speak to you? Is it just an urge, or a feeling? How can you differentiate, as my sig implies, between her voice and your own insanity? And if indeed she does not interact with our world, why should anyone worship her? Even more importantly, if she is a supernatural being, why should she need or even desire our worship?

These are the questions which have led me to abandon faith as a hopeless exercise in futility. If the gods don't show themselves, then they either do not exist or have given me no reason to worship them if they do. Certainly, relying on the maundering of ancient "prophets" who can't even get their stories straight does not give me any such reason.

Paraphrasing some much more intelligent people than myself:

We are all atheists. I just believe in one less god(dess) than you.

When you can explain why you don't worship any of the thousands of gods which have plagued humanity, then you will understand why I don't worship yours.

[leo9]

So once again it's a matter of faith.

You say that like it's a bad thing.

But if she doesn't "leave footprints in the material world" how can you know what she wants? Does she speak to you? Is it just an urge, or a feeling? How can you differentiate, as my sig implies, between her voice and your own insanity?

How can you differentiate between your rational materialism and your own insanity? None of us can prove by self-analysis that we're not crazy or deluded: unlike Voyager's computerised Doctor, we don't have self-diagnostic subroutines to call on. We get by, most of the time, by a combination of concensus (if a reasonable number of people seem to agree with me, it's not just in my head) and pragmatism (if my ideas don't put me dangerously at odds with the world, they can't be that irrational). In Robert Anton Wilson's immortal words, only the madman is absolutely sure.

And if indeed she does not interact with our world, why should anyone worship her? Even more importantly, if she is a supernatural being, why should she need or even desire our worship?

Like most modern Pagans, I don't see my gods as being so weak or egomaniac that they actually want people to spend hours chanting about how wonderful they are. But... have you ever been stunned by something so vast and so beautiful that you could only stare in awe? That is worship, and it's not something you put on in order to beg for helpful miracles: it's something you can't help but feel.

Hey, I don't waste my time on small delusions.

These are the questions which have led me to abandon faith as a hopeless exercise in futility. If the gods don't show themselves, then they either do not exist or have given me no reason to worship them if they do.

Absolutely reasonable, and I can't fault you. That works for you, so it's right for you.

I was right where you are once, apart from a nagging feeling that there ought to be more to it than that. I spent a while calling myself a Buddhist, which means an atheist with spiritual yearnings. But the things I heard from neo-Pagans gave me that feeling which another religious writer has described as "wishing that it might be so". I studied, here and there (this was before the days when every bookshop had a shelf on the subject), and attended rituals in the spirit of trying to see if it would work for me. I saw a cartoon, once, of an intellectual-looking character kneeling in prayer saying "Testing... Testing..." That was me.

And then I got an answer, and the world would never be the same. But I am perfectly well aware that, like the ghost that terrorised everyone who visited a house I stayed in once, it could all be explained away as subjective and unproveable.

The behaviourist pioneer Skinner, in his later years, decided that the conditioned reflex was the only mechanism needed to explain all human behaviour. Therefore, the conscious mind did not exist: all behaviour was a product of reflexes, and if you claimed to be conscious, that was your conditioned reflexes speaking as they had been conditioned to do. And the wonderful thing about this theory is, nobody could prove him wrong: your conscious mind only exists for you, you can't show it to anyone else. We all know he was wrong, but we can't prove it except by agreeing between ourselves that we know it to be true.

Paraphrasing some much more intelligent people than myself:

We are all atheists. I just believe in one less god(dess) than you.

You're quite intelligent enough to see that that's a contradiction. To paraphrase: all our glasses are empty, your empty glass just has more in it than mine.

When you can explain why you don't worship any of the thousands of gods which have plagued humanity, then you will understand why I don't worship yours.

I can and I do. I don't worship any of the others because my Lady is the one who appealed to me when I was studying the subject: so I reached out and found Her (or created Her in my head, if you wish). None of them appeal to you, so you've neither made the effort to find them, nor been seized by one against your will (as happens to some). That's fine: I'm glad it works for you. I have no intention of spoiling it by preaching how much happier you would be with a religion, because, apart from anything else, you might well not be. The mahamantra of eclectic Paganism is "Whatever works," and that includes atheism.

[xspy4u]

I love this topic. I think the answer is simpler than we allow and the answer is 3 (stay with me my sanity will become evident in a minute.) We know that the number three has powerful implications in our species. Our brains are wired to remember things in three's ( why we say bad things happen in three's). We know that in many religous belief system things are also presented in three's. We know that a woman(1) and a man(2) result in a baby (3).

So the answer to "destiny" and "freewill" is most likely explained in the same manner. Think of a human's existance and relationship with god(s) in the same terms as parents and child.

Born of the parents the child's life is the result of three different conditions; determination, divine guidance, and randomness.

A child is born with certain "things" which will ultimately "determine" other things. In this way there are aspects of their life that are predetermined at birth.

Like a child grows partially through the guidance of his parent(s) so too is there a divine guidance that leads each of us to certain choices and paths.

And third, there is the apparent randomness of events both created and experienced that will provide unique opportunities to make choices that ultimately lead us to a place..and those choices are many, although not infinite as some are removed by conditions one and two.

[Thorne]

So the answer to "destiny" and "freewill" is most likely explained in the same manner. Think of a human's existance and relationship with god(s) in the same terms as parents and child.

And what of us who have no gods to have relationships with? Are we non-human?

Born of the parents the child's life is the result of three different conditions; determination, divine guidance, and randomness.

Substitute parental/familial guidance for 'divine guidance' and I'm with you here.

A child is born with certain "things" which will ultimately "determine" other things. In this way there are aspects of their life that are predetermined at birth.

A bit tricky, here. Children are born with certain physical, emotional and mental abilities or disabilities which will profoundly affect their lives, yes, but the social acceptance or rejection of those abilities and disabilities will play a far greater role. I have an uncle who was born with muscular dystrophy who was not allowed to go to public school because of his handicap. Today society sees children like this as challenges to be integrated into our society rather than as pariahs to be hidden away. Nothing is predestined.

Like a child grows partially through the guidance of his parent(s) so too is there a divine guidance that leads each of us to certain choices and paths.

I was a child once and I have raised two children and have never seen any evidence of "divine guidance".

And third, there is the apparent randomness of events both created and experienced that will provide unique opportunities to make choices that ultimately lead us to a place..and those choices are many, although not infinite as some are removed by conditions one and two.

This is the one that so many people fear, because this one points to the almost complete lack of control we really have over our lives. And these random events are the ones that will generally bring out either the best or the worst in people. But they don't always have to be surprises. If you live near the ocean you have to be aware that you could get smacked pretty good by a hurricane. If you prepare for it you can limit some of the randomness and get through it. This will help you get through the random event with the least amount of problems. Moving away from the ocean makes it even better. In either event, though, preparation gives you at least some control over a random event.

[xspy4u]

[QUOTE=Thorne;875438]And what of us who have no gods to have relationships with? Are we non-human?

Not any less human than someone who lacks a relationship with their parents.

[QUOTE=Thorne;875438]Substitute parental/familial guidance for 'divine guidance' and I'm with you here

Umm no can do, there are greater things than the pedictability of men's egos.

[QUOTE=Thorne;875438]A bit tricky, here. Children are born with certain physical, emotional and mental abilities or disabilities which will profoundly affect their lives, yes, but the social acceptance or rejection of those abilities and disabilities will play a far greater role. I have an uncle who was born with muscular dystrophy who was not allowed to go to public school because of his handicap. Today society sees children like this as challenges to be integrated into our society rather than as pariahs to be hidden away. Nothing is predestined..

I disagree as I do not subscribe to tabla rosa. Many things are beyond an individual's ability to achieve - so we are at least "pre-destined" to not be certain things. And the one thing we know about this world...there is no such thing as "always" and "never."


[QUOTE=Thorne;875438]I was a child once and I have raised two children and have never seen any evidence of "divine guidance".

Faith is belief in the absence of proof. "love for our children" may be that divine guidance you have overlooked. I think that it is the "human" qualities that we attempt to apply to the "divine" is the core reason why people stop looking.

[QUOTE=Thorne;875438]This is the one that so many people fear, because this one points to the almost complete lack of control we really have over our lives. And these random events are the ones that will generally bring out either the best or the worst in people. But they don't always have to be surprises. If you live near the ocean you have to be aware that you could get smacked pretty good by a hurricane. If you prepare for it you can limit some of the randomness and get through it. This will help you get through the random event with the least amount of problems. Moving away from the ocean makes it even better. In either event, though, preparation gives you at least some control over a random event.[

Hurricanes are the factor of water temperature and wind conditions and follow seasonal cycles...but I get your point and would add that "apparent randomness" is simply our inability to see the connectivity of all things

[Thorne]

Not any less human than someone who lacks a relationship with their parents.

I've known a few people who have not had a relationship with their parents. They are perfectly normal people. Their parents were abusive, bad people. They walked out and never looked back. And they are just as human as anyone else.

I disagree as I do not subscribe to tabla rosa. Many things are beyond an individual's ability to achieve - so we are at least "pre-destined" to not be certain things. And the one thing we know about this world...there is no such thing as "always" and "never."

I agree with that last line, at least. But no one is predestined either to be something or to NOT be something. We may be limited by our lack of ability, unless we can find a way around that lack. We see people all the time overcoming limitations which others thought insurmountable. People losing their legs, yet able to strap on prostheses and run races! That uncle I mentioned was "predestined" never to walk, to die before he was 20, to be a constant burden to his family. Yet he learned to walk, he is now in his mid-60's, he held a job and, while sometimes being a burden, has also sometimes been a joy to his family. All in spite of his "destiny".

Faith is belief in the absence of proof. "love for our children" may be that divine guidance you have overlooked. I think that it is the "human" qualities that we attempt to apply to the "divine" is the core reason why people stop looking.

Love for our children is a genetic imperative, a way to insure the survival of our species. And it is faith and dogma that cause people to stop looking for answers. When you declare something to be the work of God, there's no reason to search for another cause.

[denuseri]

Fate doesnt nessesarally mean a divinity is involved btw.

[Thorne]

Fate doesnt nessesarally mean a divinity is involved btw.

Not explicitly,perhaps, but it does imply some kind of supernatural force which is directing our lives. Except for the final fate of death, which we all must face eventually, I can see nothing to suggest that such a force is acting on the world. We make our own fates, making choices which affect the paths we trod. Believing that you are "fated" to be poor or rich, famous or obscure, or any other "fate" which you can come up with, is only making excuses.

True, sometimes these paths can be diverted by outside forces. A hurricane or tornado destroying your home, a thief attacking you, a traffic accident. All these and more can alter our desired paths, but there is nothing to show that they are predestined. So it would be necessary to propose some form of supernatural agency which is directing our lives if you want to believe that our fates are written in stone.

[denuseri]

I dont believe its nessesary to have a supernatural force involved eaither to have fate work as it works. I believe a certian degree of fate is inheirent to the structure of the universe in and of itself and fractually carried out in lesser cycles on a smaller scale elsewhere within it. Though I doubt we want to get that deep into theoretical quantum mechanics.

[leo9]

Though I doubt we want to get that deep into theoretical quantum mechanics.

No, let's not, seeing that quantum mechanics (at least, as understood by physicists) only operates at the sub-atomic level and doesn't apply to any object larger than an atomic nucleus.

Trying to apply it to human affairs is on a par with trying to explain them in terms of the laws of gravitation.

[denuseri]

Actually when you look at the universe in its seemingly infinite capacity....how can there not be such things in existance?

[Thorne]

Actually when you look at the universe in its seemingly infinite capacity....how can there not be such things in existance?

Such things as what? Supernatural/spiritual beings? Sure it's possible, however remotely. But just because people want them to exist doesn't mean they must exist.

As far as we can tell, the universe cares absolutely nothing about our existence. If the human race, or even the entire solar system, were to disappear right now, the universe would not even notice the absence. Some material might rush in over the next few centuries to fill in the empty space, but in the grand scheme of things we would not be missed.

Certainly it would be nice to believe that our lives have more meaning than that. It would be wonderful to know that humanity is a central force in the development of the universe, the end of a long line of evolution designed specifically to bring us into existence. It would also be nice to have Santa Claus drop by every winter to hand out gifts, or for little boys to be able to climb beanstalks into the land of the giants. The probabilities are about the same.