Women Shall Submit

[Mishka]

The Apostle Paul in the Christian Bible was rather adamant about women submitting to their husbands, and being under the headship of their fathers before they marry.

In addition to the wife's complete submission to the spiritual head of the home, he is also to love her "as Christ loves the Church" (church being body of believers in Jesus as the Messiah)

I am wondering if this is comparible to the BDSM lifestyle. Do you see it that way? Or do you see that not all women are being commanded to be submissives? That women in this role are choosing it and therefore it is totally other?

Women have been rebelling against these scriptures for years, wanting (demanding) more control over their lives and spirituality. Just curious as to your thoughts on this. Do you see the D/s lifestyle having more freedom and respect for the woman than these scriptures?

*I realize submissives can be both men and women, but the Bible clearly does not put man under woman nor does it acknowledge transgenders, so it's not applicable to my question. Though feel free to give your thoughts on this.

[Mishka]

Sorry, I'm a little tired and misspelled "Women" in the title. Can a moderator fix that?

ETA: Thank you.

[annie]

i have actually had this exact conversation with some women before from my church. (Although they didn't realize BDSM was part of the actual topic.)

In my mind i don't see it as a matter of one having more freedom or respect for women...

i see the D/s as fitting naturally with what script is already stating and believe that if more men would be the "head of their households" as the script says then the women could/would be more submissive naturally as well.

When a man fulfills his biblical duties, as is clearly outlined in the Bible, then it is easier for woman (at least for me) to fulfill her biblical duties. The reason women fight against the concept is because a majority of men want to be the head in name but not in action, words or deeds. Which leaves the woman feeling as though she has to pick up the slack, which in turn creates a muddled mess...

MHO...

[cariad]

When a man fulfills his biblical duties, as is clearly outlined in the Bible, then it is easier for woman (at least for me) to fulfill her biblical duties. The reason women fight against the concept is because a majority of men want to be the head in name but not in action, words or deeds. Which leaves the woman feeling as though she has to pick up the slack, which in turn creates a muddled mess...

MHO...

I could not agree more with you annie. Will just add that I think men can also find it hard to take on their biblical role since society puts pressure on them to behave differently, in the same way that woman can feel pressure not to submit to their biblical role.

I have discussed this teaching with non-lifestylers, a number of whom seem to really struggle with it; but that is because they do not have the intuitive understanding which we do, that Dominant is not greater or more important than the submissive, but that it is a partnership of equal although different roles.

cariad

[Psynymph]

i would love to get into this debate, because it's such an awesome topic....

but i would go one for hours......i will certainly be lurking in the shadows though,

[cariad]

Oh, why not at least start Psynymph - I am sure someone will gag you if you go on for too long. Grins.

cariad

[lily27]

I was asked recently how I could be a Christian and also be into BDSM. How to reconcile the two. (I am sure everyone in this room has had the same discussion at some point.)

My answer was that as long as it was monogamous, I didn't have a problem with the two at once. And pointed out the bible teachings discussed above.

Our current gender roles in mainstream society where men and women are supposedly exactly the same in every single possible way, has only been around for a generation or two. It wasn't that long ago that men really were the head of their households.

It doesn't mean that men are getting off light here either. One of my friend's fifteen year old son started spouting off while I was visiting about how great it would be once he had a family and he could be in charge and do what he wanted. So I started discussing with him all of the responsibilities that came with that role. He had to demonstrate how to be a good Christian, teach his sons to become good men, his daughters how men should treat them, and be a loving and supportive husband. All of a sudden, it wasn't all that appealing anymore.

I think when we remove all of the messages that "society" is telling us, many fall back into these traditional roles. Certainly one of (not the biggest, but one of) the things that drew me to D/s is the fact that you can find such a relationship.

It definitely appears that there are more Dom/sub relationships than there are Domme/sub relationships. I would expect that this is due to our natural gender roles that we aren't supposed to be acknowledging according to mainstream society.

(Disclaimer - in no way am I trying to imply that Dommes and male subs are unnatural, or illigitimate, or anything else bad. I am just making gross generalizations.)

[Timberwolf]

I find the bible is ralated to D/s in the same way that American and European football both contain the word "football".

[lily27]

I find the bible is ralated to D/s in the same way that American and European football both contain the word "football".

Care to expand on that a little?

[Timberwolf]

"Care to expand on that a little?"

They both happen to contain similar elements. It doesn't mean they directly relate to one another. Not to say one can't be Chrsitian and a Lifestyler or anything, of course not. But for me the two simply have very little to do with one another. I also think any attempt to draw a sweeping, mass conclusion about how society to live is doomed to be laced with massive holes, as the concept of men and women's so-called "biblical roles" certainly are.

I also think there's a (very large) amount of romanticising about what the "biblical role" of the woman really was, in the same way that Hollywood romanticises war.

[lily27]

I don't see what Islaam and BDSM have to do with each other either. But that is probably because I am not a Muslim. I live every day as both a Christian, and a sub....so it is easy to see the overlap and connections between the two.

It's not a perfect fit. But I try to live each so that neither is in conflict with the other. And for me, the non-sexual aspects of D/s fits very well with how I wish to live my Christian life as well.

I certainly am not trying to make any sweeping, mass conclusions, and I don't think anyone else here is either.

Just as BDSM consists of a million different flavours, so does Christianity.

[Timberwolf]

"I don't see what Islaam and BDSM have to do with each other either. But that is probably because I am not a Muslim. I live every day as both a Christian, and a sub....so it is easy to see the overlap and connections between the two."

I didn't mean to confuse anything with my question to you in IM. I tend to ask most Christians I meet at some point "have you ever read the Quran", just as on another forum I visit that has several Pakistani members I posed the question "Have you ever read the bible". The all-time record still stands at 2 yes, about three dozen no's. BUt that all has nothing to do with the issue at hand, beyond my own curiosity. (I make it pretty well known that I swear allegiance to no particular faith.)

"I certainly am not trying to make any sweeping, mass conclusions, and I don't think anyone else here is either. "

The individuals here don't, but that's generally due to the fact that frankly, we have a high intelligence quotient in our membership.

For me, the issue of religion and being in the lifestyle is a non-sequitor. Mainstream religions (as a collective whole) have so many taboos about sex that I tend to think it's probably best to not use religion as more than the most basic of starting points in terms of exploration related to that subject. In terms of the spiritual end of what sex, and relationships mean... well, I would say much as you did to end your post. To each their own.

[annie]

Personally, and this is only my opinion, but I think it just isn't society that adds to the pressure of what people think each role should be. I think people add to it as well through their own misunderstanding or interpertation of the Bible.

I attend a Baptist church and we are free to interperate scripture our own way as long as we keep the basic core beliefs. This is both a positive and a negative. The negative being that people interperate what part of scripture they want, don't bother to learn the rest, and then declare that they know all. An example of this would be a man who takes the scripture from Paul and Proverbs 31:10 -31 (Perfect Wife scripture) and expects a perfect wife. Most men that I know who have done this are either not truly the head of their households or they act like they are in some fashion but treat the wife as a doormat and entirely sweep over the "as Christ loves the church" part for their own personal reasons. Personally that is not a true believer but rather someone looking for a reason to have their bad behavior condoned. Sorry... *pushes my soap box back to the corner*

Anyhow... I think it is a combination of society but also a combination of what each person is willing/wants to believe. As some one once told me, it is always easier to be a Christian at church.

On a seperate note though... there are at least a dozen examples of married couples, in all age ranges, at my church, that to me display the how the true nature of Paul's writtings are to be done. The wife is a vital part of the family and is just as important as anyone else. But, they also have a sense of peace that I truly believes comes from the fact that their husbands are being Biblical husbands. I honestly don't believe that any of those relationships are D/s... but the way they function and the harmony between the couple and the family unit in general is just awe inspiring to me....

Sorry... just rambling now! Great thread... thanks for starting it!

[Mishka]

Great thread... thanks for starting it!

My pleasure.

I walked away from Fundamentalism a few years ago. I still embrace some of the teachings but some I thought I went off the deep end about.

My husband never liked Paul very much, even while a Believer. So he did not press the submission issue with me. He only asked for cooperation and respecting each other's feelings, which isn't too much for any couple to ask for. A few years into our marriage I embraced the teaching. The thing is is that nothing really changed. I matured some, I learned how to better cooperate. Mostly by the examples of my Sisters.

Since the walk-away nothing has changed. We cooperate and try to show respect to each other. My eagerness to please is not because I am trying to please G-d, but because it is my personality, I love to please and serve.

As I mull this over I think it is greatly influenced by culture. The Bible, Quaran, Talmud and Tanach all have wifely submission and husband as head of the home scriptures. They are patriarchal societies. America still is, it was influenced by Christian doctrine. (the political aspect of this is a whole other thread)

However, I'm curious to study matriarchal societies, some Native American tribes have had it, and I'd have to re-read about others. Do the women have more legal rights? More say in their matches and divorces? More control of the money? The women and men grow up into their respective roles because of the example set by their culture. Is there still a sense of submission about certain things/scenarios? Do the women crave a man more dominant in sexuality, perhaps to prove his manlihood or because she simply needs that aspect naturally?

I'm not looking for a definitive answer, the discussion is interesting. Thank you for participating.

[Guest 91108]

I have to agree with most of what Timberwolf said.
To me religion is for the community .. that's why it's organised. and also a college professor offered " religion is but the fourth layer of government. you have your country, state/province, locale, and community/religion" - i found that had such a ring to it that i dropped from going to seminary for the Lutheran church. I was at a Lutheran College.
Spirituality is for the individual.
I think the bible is telling of how order is created in the family house as a guideline and nothing more.
All of the bible is actually a guideline from past times.
Stops self ... that should be for another thread.

[TomOfSweden]

the Bible was written in about 300 after christ. I think that says it all. It's not a question of believing, only context

[Ropeart]

the bible was written by men, as a reaction (with regard to relationships with the opposite sex) to a fear of womankind. Every major religion seeks to subjugate women, (HIS-story,) yet so few women seem to ask why. subjugation of women is one of the main props of all major religions....it has to be, because a weak man can only derive any illusion of strength through his perceived superiority to others, namely, women. Remove that sense of superiority and he is seen for what he is. Preacher after preacher, after making godly pronouncements has this weakness revealed...ah....but this is satan's way of testing him. Well---that's OK then. Oh c'mon????? Send me money or I will personally see to it that you all go to hell??
A woman, by her very nature, is more intensely sexual than any man can hope to be. Because of this she must (in biblical terms) be kept in subjugation. Orgasmic pleasure MUST be a sin because men cannot do it on such an intense scale as a woman can. Being physically weaker, Women compensate by having keener senses, if they didnt then they would have been at a disadvantage in evolutionary terms (bad word there)...a woman carrying a baby in her arms is more likely to be eaten by something with big teeth!! It is this that gives her her famous ''sixth sense''....another fear factor for moronic men. Women are smarter than men, only women in a state of self denial can't admit this...deferring to men because god has told men that it should be so. Odd how messages from god are almost exclusively given to men . Odd how only men seem to wander off into the hills to get the word of god telling them they are superior to women. (Women are too busy defending their offspring to get involved in such nonsense) Odd how witches (female) get burned, ...supervised of course by sadistic priests...odd how adultery is always the woman's fault in primitive societies. (Definition of primitive is any society allowing a rape plea of ''she was asking for it your honour'')---women must dress modestly for fear of inflaming men's uncontrollable lusts....no...this insulting concept is not confined to followers of islam
When a woman steps into the real world of BDSM...as opposed to merely submitting to the ''head of the household'', she becomes free. Free of the trappings of biblical subjugation and the pathetic fear of a vicious sadistic religion and those (men) who profess to know the word of god.. She rises above all that, her BDSM submission is through her own needs and desires, not by trying to live to some primitive lifestyle intended to suit desert nomadic conditions imposed by a bunch of flat-earthers. In true BDSM a Master boosts his submissive,he is the ''air beneath her wings''---ask any woman who has found her true master, one who puts her needs before his own, giving her a sense of her own worth and power, and value. A real Master never orders his submissive to ''do'' anything, or to be obedient. The concept never arises because they become as one, equal.
And yes....I DO write from a lifetime of realtime, beautiful involvement in BDSM.
I can touch my partner on the forehead---and she will climax..instantly. I do this for her pleasure, but to say it is some kind of spiritual thing would be laughable, yet we see power crazy ''pastors'' doing the same trickery on people (edit) who believe that god has touched them through him

[TomOfSweden]

the bible was written by men, as a reaction (with regard to relationships with the opposite sex) to a fear of womankind. Every major religion seeks to subjugate women,

I seriously believe that the intention of the bible was to give good advice on which morals to follow. In 300 AD women where little more than property and if the Bible hadn't incorporated morals of the time nobody would have read the book(s) or become christian. I don't think it's a question of actively trying to subjugate women more than what was allready happening. For all we know it could have been progressive for it's time. A lot can happen in the subject of ethics in 1700 years.

Don't forget that the Bible was compiled by the order of Emperor Constantin. He wasn't even Christian. Not even a little bit. It's no secret that his goals with compiling the Bible was purely political. The omitted books are called the Apocrypha.

Christian morals have developed a lot. For example S:t Nicholas. Better known today as Father Christmas was famous for two things. Giving presents to the poor and burning down pagan churches. He got famous and connonized for the second act but the focus shifted as Christian ethics evolved.

Yes, religion is one of my favorite subjects.

[vampyres{ID}]

To me (Yes I am a hard core angry atheist) Being a submissive to man (or woman) is allot better, and grants more freedom then being a submissive to god or the bible, If your a submissive out of fear you have a problem and really shouldn't be doing it (because in the end Its not submission its being abused) The end line of all the people who fail to convert me is Well aren't you afraid that God will condemn you to hell? I chose to serve my master out of love, not fear, I except punishment because I like it, not because I am forced. I will not be cajoled, begged or pleaded to be a slave to a god or man that expects me to fear him/it.

If I choose tomorrow to walk away from this life, no one can stop me, or threaten me with damnation, which is allot more freedom then the bible gave me.

[bonniegirl]

You need to take scripture on the whole, you can't pick and choose, in order to confirm your point of view. When Paul says that a women should be in submission to own husband, he meant just that. She is not to take the role of head of household, nor is she to be in any role that makes a man be in subjection to herand if she does, she will have to account for that. As well as the man will account for allowing her to do it.
My problem is in being a Christian (blood bought) and also having a bdsm lifestyle. Sometimes i feel like my flesh takes over, and the desire for my husband, and his pleasure takes priority, it's a difficult balance sometimes, i guess that is where trust and faith come in.

[cariad]

To me (Yes I am a hard core angry atheist) Being a submissive to man (or woman) is allot better, and grants more freedom then being a submissive to god or the bible, If your a submissive out of fear you have a problem and really shouldn't be doing it (because in the end Its not submission its being abused) The end line of all the people who fail to convert me is Well aren't you afraid that God will condemn you to hell? I chose to serve my master out of love, not fear, I except punishment because I like it, not because I am forced. I will not be cajoled, begged or pleaded to be a slave to a god or man that expects me to fear him/it.

If I choose tomorrow to walk away from this life, no one can stop me, or threaten me with damnation, which is allot more freedom then the bible gave me.

I choose to submit to the man whom I love as an expression of my love and desire for him. As his, I enjoy certain benefits, but that is not why I submit. In the same way I choose to submit to God because I both love and respect Him and I wish to please Him. I neither believe in God, nor submit to Him because I am frightened of who He is, the power He has over me, nor because of the benefits I would loose by not being His.

cariad

[TomOfSweden]

You need to take scripture on the whole, you can't pick and choose, in order to confirm your point of view.

Says who?

When Paul says that a women should be in submission to own husband, he meant just that. She is not to take the role of head of household, nor is she to be in any role that makes a man be in subjection to herand if she does, she will have to account for that. As well as the man will account for allowing her to do it.

The original Bible was a large collection of stories and poems using the the traditional stories of the Babylonian religion as a base, and building on them. It was extremly fractured and as a good example we have the Evionites/Ebionites. The original Christian sect in Jerusalem and they did not count Paul as an apostle, and still don't. Now their reasons are lost in history, but it is still food for thaught. Omitting the evangelium of Paul would change the meaning of the Bible quite a bit wouldn't it? And these guys were the first Christians ever that had actually met and known Jesus personaly. So they should know, right?

The Egyptian Kopts had their own variety of Christianity which was a lot older than the Roman and which was out-lawed after the first council of Nicea. The Aryans had their own version and their own version of the Christian Bible.

When Emperor Constantin introduced the Bible there was a pretty even split among Christians between the Donatists, (Christians who rejected the new Bible and considered Constantin the Devil) and the non-Donatists who now saw Constantin as the new leader of the Christian Church, which today could seem quite strange since Constantin himself wasn't even Christian. So who knows. Maybe the Donatists were right and the modern Christian Bible is the work of Satan?

My point is that there through-out history have been a wide-variety of Christian Bibles with a wide variety of teachings. Jesus being the son of god, Jesus being an ordinary human and so forth. Just because one Bible won out over the rest, (ie the Versio Vulgata) doesn't add to it's authenticity. There's been lots of great ideas lost in history. Just ask any Jazz-musician. Why not just make your religion your own. Nobody can win the "my religion is more authentic" discussion. I suggest you following your heart and your brain. Don't just submit to what you know out of habit.

My problem is in being a Christian (blood bought) and also having a bdsm lifestyle. Sometimes i feel like my flesh takes over, and the desire for my husband, and his pleasure takes priority, it's a difficult balance sometimes, i guess that is where trust and faith come in.

"Flesh takes over", is that some Christian lingo for being horny? If god has a problem with that I suggest changing religions. Sounds like it's likely to get a bit boring in the long run.

[rce]

Modern day Biblical research has found that the first books of the Old Testament was most probably written by a woman. She is known by the letter J. This has been determined by comparing the oldest known scriptures to those of known "schools" of scribes in the Jewish society. J wrote in the same manner as a school of only women.

The oldest books of the New Testament were written in the first decades after the crucifiction and resurection of Christ. Paul almost lived in the days of Christ. There are also letters in the New Testament written by people who knew Christ, such as Peter. The Gospels are probably a bit younger, but most scholars say they were written no later than a hundred years after the life of Jesus Christ.

[Rhabbi]

kitten,

We have discussed this a bit in private, but since I just discovered this thread here I thought I would make my point in public.

BDSM is biblical in the sense od the D/s aspect of the lifestyle. But the real key of making it work is for the man to fulfill his duty first.

Let me quote here:

Be subject to one another out of reverence for Christ (the Messiah, the Anointed One). Wives, be subject (be submissive and adapt yourselves) to your own husbands as [a service] to the Lord. For the husband is head of the wife as Christ is the Head of the church, Himself the Savior of [His] body. As the church is subject to Christ, so let wives also be subject in everything to their husbands. Husbands, love your wives, as Christ loved the church and gave Himself up for her, So that He might sanctify her, having cleansed her by the washing of water with the Word, That He might present the church to Himself in glorious splendor, without spot or wrinkle or any such things [that she might be holy and faultless]. Even so husbands should love their wives as [being in a sense] their own bodies. He who loves his own wife loves himself. For no man ever hated his own flesh, but nourishes and carefully protects and cherishes it, as Christ does the church, because we are members (parts) of His body. For this reason a man shall leave his father and his mother and shall be joined to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh. This mystery is very great, but I speak concerning [the relation of] Christ and the church. However, let each man of you [without exception] love his wife as [being in a sense] his very own self; and let the wife see that she respects and reverences her husband [that she notices him, regards him, honors him, prefers him, venerates, and esteems him; and that she defers to him, praises him, and loves and admires him exceedingly]. (Eph 5:21-31 AMP)

Please note that a women is required to submit to her husband, but the husband is also required to submit to her and to Christ. The love that the husband feels fro Jesus enables him to submit, obey, and serve.

He thus is able to present his wife to himself in glorious splendor, without spot or wrinke. He sees her as holy and faultless. I do not know about anybody else, but I think that the man has the greatest challnge here. He must love his wife, be able to see her faults to help her correct them, yet present her to himself without those faults.

Would this make it easier for a wife to submit? I believe so. In fact, if it does not there is something seriously wrong with her.

Does this apply in the BDSM life? Of course. The marvelous thing about truth is that it always applies. There are those who do not understand the life that would say that it is condemned by Jehovah, but I would point out that as londg as it happens in the sanctity of marraige, and is mutual, it is blessed by Him.

[annie]

Think i am going to push this thread back to the top... since there is another discussion in the General section which in some ways goes along with this... and we have a lot of new members...

Anyone else have a comment? Thought? i would love to hear it!

[MajesticFae]

I don't really think of BDSM and Christianity in the same thought. They share a few common elements, but for me Christianity is what I make of it and not a set of rules that are unbendable/unbreakable. I don't attend church regularly and I've never fully read the bible. I think it was written during a time where some of the issues addressed do not apply to today's standards, thus modifications need to be made.

Sex was very taboo in those times and I don't really think that applies today, for one. Thus, I don't think BDSM if offensive to God considering there are some priests who walk around beating themselves. (Atleast, I'm pretty sure that's Christianity... I just remember seeing it on the history channel somewhere... forgive me if I'm wrong)

I'm sure it's very possible to live by the bible completely and 100% and be completely devout and all that jazz and still live a BDSM life style. It might take some reworking of the ideals of BDSM to fit within the Christian mold, but I do not doubt it's possible.

As for the bible stating that women are naturally subservient to men, I agree. However, I think it was developed in a patriarchal time when women were no more than property as Mishka said. Times have changed and this is another thing that I think needs to be able to bend. I also wonder what it's like in matriarchal societies with regards to subservience.

Just my two cents.

[TomOfSweden]

I read a hillarious quote from Steven Weinberg regarding this. I can't recall it verbatim but what he said was something like this:

"If you claim to be a Christian, you either follow the Bible to the letter or you quickly run into trouble. If you use your own judgement and interpret the Bible from modern moral values then what's the point of having the religion. Aren't you just using your own morality to make judgements about what is relgion and ignoring the Bible. If we aren't using the religion as a guide do we really belong to the religion".

Funny guy. Arguably nobody today follows the Bible to the letter, and with this reasoning there are no Christians today. Just people using the title just like people wear a hat or picks a pretty but nonsensicle title or name. It becomes devoid of meaning.

[jeanne]

I don't consider myself Christian, rather just spiritual. My sexuality comes from God - He made me this way. If I don't honor myself, including my sexuality, I'm dishonoring God and ignoring His gifts to me. I guess what I'm trying to say is that for me, there is a direct connection.

[Guest91408]

DELETED. Newbie bites her tongue. HARD.

*stays well clear and orders DarkSister to keep out too*

[nk_lion]

Sex in my religion is encouraged, and considered in a sense holy. The restrictions are no pre-maritial sex and it has to be monogamous. So bdsm in not way conflicts with my beliefs.