Innate or Learned?

[AgentDesire]

Greetings all. This my first post *pops her posting cherry* Damn, might have needed that . . . Moving on, I have been puzzling over this for a while and after reading the thoughtful responses, thought I would post this to the forum.

Do you feel that the BDSM lifestyle is innate or learned behavior? If it learned behavior, that means that much like Pavlov’s dog, we can be reconditioned. If it is innate, then it would come to follow that the behavior is fixed. Input please.

[BruceBoxer]

I propose a third option--acquired. Innate is our drive to seek pleasure; learned is our ability to process information culling bits until, through our humanistic free will, we form processes and patterns that establish that behavior we most enjoy with cause and effect satisfing that which we desire.
Pensively,
Boxer

Originally posted by AgentDesire
Greetings all. This my first post *pops her posting cherry* Damn, might have needed that . . . Moving on, I have been puzzling over this for a while and after reading the thoughtful responses, thought I would post this to the forum.

Do you feel that the BDSM lifestyle is innate or learned behavior? If it learned behavior, that means that much like Pavlov’s dog, we can be reconditioned. If it is innate, then it would come to follow that the behavior is fixed. Input please.

[BDSM_Tourguide]

There is nothing in the way our brain is wired that makes us prone to enjoy bondage, pain and subservience. In fact, if you asked a psychologist, he would probably tell you that this sort of thing would be a telltale sign of a addled or deranged brain. However, since I have dealt with that in previous posts, I'll move on from there.

I also agree with Bruce and think it just might be an acquired taste. Something read about, experimented with, tried and tested and then processed as a likable form of play and living.

However, I'm not exactly sure as to the distinction made between learned and acquired, as they seem to be the same thing to me.

[Fox]

This thread is engaging the question of environment v. heredity, a subject that has occupied deep thinkers in sociology, social psychology and behavioural psychology for the past century. The question applies not just to sexual behaviour, but to all aspects of human behaviour; the answers tend to be skewed according to the leanings of the researcher.

Those much more learned than me can debate this issue endlessly; my not-so-informed-but-based-on-a-little-knowledge opinions are

1. I disagree with Tourguide saying "there is nothing in our brains ...etc." Human sexuality, intelligence, etc. are highly fluid in nature, else we would be in a constant state of aggression or arousal, etc. There are far too many variables involved within the body that affect behaviour - all behaviour - to make such a generalization.

From what I have seen, people appear to be born with certain personality traits ... some children are quiet, others boisterous, some talk earlier than others, some like to draw while others like to play sports. Observation of pack animals and human groups will also demonstrate that there are "alpha" males, alpha females, and "natural" leaders. This is well documented. Perhaps dominance and submissiveness are expressions of these inborn personality traits; the interest in bondage being a learned expression of an innate characteristic.

2. Sorry Tourguide, but in my (limited) experience, a practicing psychologist, psychotherapist or psychiatrist (they are different) is highly unlikely to say “if you asked a psychologist, he would probably tell you that this sort of thing would be a telltale sign of a addled or deranged brain. ” That is unprofessional at best and ill informed (aka ignorant) at worst.

He/she is more likely to abstain from an opinion on the issue, and to ask why you want to know, and do you think it is abnormal? If he/she is speaking publicly, the attitude expressed will most likely be couched in terms of his/her theoretical bent.

But if YOUR therapist says otherwise, who am I to question? heh heh ...

There is copious research on the topic available at the local public library … start with Krafft-Ebbing, work your way through Kinsey, Masters & Johnson, Nancy Friday, Dr. Ruth, Dr. Gloria Brame and numerous research papers. Skip the internet, too much fluff and not enough facts. Or you could ask a sex researcher such as Sue Johannsen of the Sunday Night Sex Show on cable tv here in Canada.

There is extensive information out there about behaviour modification, chemo-modification, etc. etc. Changing individual sexual orientation has been clinically attempted, utilizing a variety of techniques including EST (eletroshock therapy), chemicals, surgical castration, and others, all with very poor results. Check with someone in the local penal system about how many pedophiles have been successfully reformed.

For pure enjoyment, try Anthony Burgess’ book “A Clockwork Orange”, and be sure to rent Kubrick’s masterful (pun intended) film starring Malcom McDowell.

3. If you REALLY want to find out, follow the example of the 'founder' of behaviour modification B F Skinner. Start with an infant, preferably your own, and shape his/her rearing process to meet certain criteria say, to become a detective who plays the violin. Maintain these standards throughout his/her lifetime, with continuous monitoring of the results. Chances are pretty good, the adult may become a violin playing detective, but he/she will also have some very skewed thought processes. Nature vs. nurture.

There is a recent case of a man was raised as a girl – not a transsexual or transvestite, for two decades or so he thought he was a normal girl – but who discovered in early adulthood that he was in fact, male. Very interesting case.

4. Who cares … so long as it is safe, sane and consensual!


So, let me ask this:

How many psychiatrists does it take to change a lightbulb?

[Fox]

agentdesire, I love the avatar!

[BDSM_Tourguide]

Pick apart Tourguide's posts day? Yeesh. Cut me some slack, people. I'm entitled to form opinions and make mistakes, too, ya know?

The simple fact is, BDSM is illegal in parts of the world. Don't believe me? Try to import a flogger from the USA to Canada and mark the box "adult toy product" and see how that goes.

Whether our responses are learned or not is a nevereneding debate and one which has been covered on many lists and groups and will probably never be answered until some scientist sometime, but not in our lifetime, makes the amazing discovery about how the human mind works.

The fact of the matter is: ALL our behaviours are learned. We are born with the instincts to curl our toes, grab things with our hands, respond to stimuli, suckle, root and cry when we are uncomfortable. As we develop, we form more and more responses, but these are learned. We learn to smile at what we see as funny. We learn to talk based upon listening to the people around us. We learn to read because our parents or someone shows us worss in books and explains them to us. We learn to be sexually active, because our bodies begin to mature and we learn that we have sexual feeling and urges. We suspect we would like to be tied up and spanked, because something we have learned in the past tells us that might be kind of fun or some outside source, like a book, might show these practices to be favorable and desirable.

That is how we grow. We learn. So, yes, you can pull the nature vs. nurture argument all you want. The simple fact is that we learn from both. Biologically, we are animals. Left to our own devices, without teaching, without technology and without nurturing influences, we would revert to a wild and feral state. We would become neanderthals again. It is only through what we have learned that we have become so "civilized."

[Fox]

I bet you have a human-sized Skinner box out in the barn too.

But then you right wingers out in Alberta have long been a little bit different from the rest of us 'civilized' folk ... heh heh ...

'nuff said.

[redEva]

Originally posted by Fox
So, let me ask this:
How many psychiatrists does it take to change a lightbulb?

Why do you think lightbulb needs to be changed?

[BDSM_Tourguide]

And no, my mother didn't make me say that. LOL

While we're on the subject of civilized... How's that SARS thing coming?

[Harold]

The nature vs. nurture thing is something I've been interested in and have been taking an informal poll among readers who correspond with me.

I, too, must disagree with Tourguide.

I had one woman tell me bondage was a learned interest for her, but all others felt they were born with it. At this point, I am of the opinion that an interest in BDSM is innate. It can be learned, but those who don't already have an interest usually don't bother, and are often repelled by the idea.

My data is unscientific and best classified as hearsay, but I've heard the same thing often enough now that I believe it.

[AgentDesire]

It truly is the eternal question, eh? I appreciate the feedback. My opinion mimics that of your own, Fox. (And thank you for the compliment.) I feel that either through genetics, though more probably through development, aka nurture, we are either more dominant or more submissive. I feel that the gradient scale that has been applied to sexual preference (i.e. homo/hetero/bisexuality) applies in this realm too. I do not believe that sexuality is changeable, but it may be that D/s preference is. (Well, that or they are attracted to the power exchange but not quite sure where they fit into it, but find out through further exploration.) Perhaps it would be possible to mold either a Dominant or a submissive, but I think that if there is no ‘internal’ spark all the behavioral methods would be moot.

[Fox]

Q: How many psychiatrists does it take to change a light bulb?

A: Only one. But it takes a long time, it costs a lot of money and the light bulb really has to want to change.


Sorry redEva dahlin', close but no cigar.


Of course, if you want to come over to my house to play "alpha male and beta female", and explore our D/s natures and nurture something along, I'm sure I can round up a cigar or two ...

heh heh heh

[Fox]

Tourguide, you're a real masochist, setting me up with straight lines like these:

Freud Rules

Sorry, but Freud was anything but a behaviourist. And he was a product of Victorian thinking, preoccupied with sex ... So when you press this particular bar in your Skinner box, you'll be getting a shock to your little footies,

While we're on the subject of civilized... How's that SARS thing coming?

Heh heh, in defence of my friends in Toronto, I have just one word for you.

moooooo



So .... here's another question.

What does a REAL sadist do to a masochist?

[BruceBoxer]

In response I offer:

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Fox
... but Freud was anything but a behaviourist. And he was a product of Victorian thinking, preoccupied with sex [QUOTE]

AND...

So .... here's another question.

What does a REAL sadist do to a masochist?

As for Freud, My kinda guy.

in answer to the question: Ignore them.

Do I win?

[BDSM_Tourguide]

Ya bother me with details. I got more to worry about than what school of thought each psychologist belonged to. Besides, it's been a few years since I cracked that particular book.

But, yes, I am definitely a behaviourist, but I also enjoy the works of Freud. A lot can be said about what comes out of our unconscious mind.

I don't put much credence in the theory of genetic predisposition. I don't think our genes determine if we are dominant or submissive. They might, although I am hesitant to give much credit to this theory as well, determine our sexuality, but until we complete that human genome project and completely map the human genetic make-up, I will continue to hold the idea that we choose whether we dominate or submit or whether we are gay, straight or bisexual.

I believe our parents, friends and what we read and see daily affect our preferences. I DO NOT, however, believe that music, literature, pornography or movies can make us do anything we wouldn't ordinarily want to do anyway. I think BDSM appeals to some people when they see it. I think gay sex appeals to some people when they see it. I think lesbianism appeals to some people when they see it. I also think that violence appeals to some people when they see it.

So, yes, that part might be predisposed, but until you are confronted with the object of your predisposition, you may not realize that you even have the desire.

To some people being tied up and spanked is offensive and degrading. To others, it represents something terribly powerful and sexual. It all boils down to how you think, how you were taught, your level of open-mindedness and your willingness to accept new thoughts and ideas.

[Fox]

Two final responses for me ...

1. Tourguide, we're gonna have to agree to disagree. I don't think Jinn has enough bandwidth for this forum.

2. The question was ...
What does a REAL sadist do to a masochist? ...

The answer :

[MrJerseyGuy]

I think a lot of people spend their whole lives repressing sexual desires because they are taught that certain things are "acceptable" and anything else is perverted.

Thank god I'm a pervert! (and lucky for me...so is my girlfriend)

[veru_skjava]

OK, I avoided this discussion because I don't want to be thinking professionally when my sexuality is involved.

However sticking with the original question, and only for myself, I know for a fact I have been bondage oriented all my life.

It was enhanced as a young child and being in the hospital often, and being restrained, but every memory I have about fantasy and sexual exploration involved being controlled and helpless.

I am very satisfied as my owners 24/7 slave, and feel at last all those years of feeling, if not being told outright my desires were perverted have been satisfied. Now it is no olonger just the ever present thought in my head, it is my life.

veru, a happy happy slave

[Kostly]

I too have been involved in this all my life. I remember back at 5 beign tied up by my sisters, and having a raging hard on... It wasnt sexual back then, and I definately didnt get it from my parents or Seasome Street.

[InnerTemptress]

interesting thread to initiate my introduction to this forum.

i had the occasion to speak candidly with two dominants (male and female) and both said that they do not view the D/s lifestyle as mostly sexual. certainly there is a sexual element to it but it is not often the major focus.

to a point i agree with this. i am submissive but most people would not know it in my outside life .. yet both had me pegged within about 10 minutes of conversation.

the reason why i say this is that it wasn't through a conversation about D/s that they determined this but by my general demeanor. As they said, it takes one to know one. i didn't seek out this lifestyle ... it found me. it is my reactions that keep me searching for that one person that will lead me to new heights and understanding of this thing that makes me tick.

[Fox]

In my lifetime, I have learned that I am a 'control freak'; I seek power over my environment so that it can be shaped in the way I choose. Is this learned behaviour? In part. Is it innate behaviour? In part.

The point is, this controlling behaviour is exemplified in every aspect of my life.

I have learned to accept that this is how I am, and that I cannot always be in control - and sometimes I fight this. Is this resistance of mine innate or learned?

Sexually, I have experienced both Dom and sub roles ... and as a sub, I tried to top from the bottom. (By the way, I believe the best Doms are those who know what it is like to have subbed)

To me, D/s is psychological ...
Bondage is foreplay ...
SM relies on the physical to force psychological control ... resistance to the pain, is part of the experience - for both.

To whit, a brief description of a real life experience:

I had just picked my partner up from her aerobics class. She was in light summer sundress.
My hand left the gear shift, and lifting the hem of the dress, exposed her belly and cruised down to the neatly shaved skin below. She sighed at my touch.
The fitness centre is about fifteen minute drive from my townhouse on the banks of the river. We cruised at 60 klicks. I spotted the semi trailers on the overpass ahead, and lowered the ragtop.
Diana’s eyes widened as she realized what was about to happen.
“Fox?” she begged as I pulled my car closer to the driver’s window of the first truck. I played with my slave girl as we crept past the cab, my hand visibly buried in her exposed pussy.
“You prick,” she whispered, her lovely face a bright crimson. She closed her eyes. I laughed and winked at the truck driver, his mouth open at the sight.
My finger entered her now wet passage. She came almost instantly.

No physical pain involved, lots of emotions, and complete control/dominance over not one but two people.

The DESIRE to do this ... to exercise this power ... was NOT learned. Nor was her desire to let it happen.

'Nuff said. I'm going on holidays.

[longrover]

I really, really, really hesitate to step into this one, but here goes.

I think the "pure" strain of behaviorism, a la Skinner, as a nearly complete explanation for what people and other critters (mammals, anyway) do is nearly dead.

I took a course from a guy (mid '70's) who was as pure a behaviorist as I've ever known. He claimed that dogs, for example, respond purely from conditioning. Sorry. Dogs have temperment from the moment they are born - been there, seen that.

Or how about cows? 6:30 of a summer morning (long, long ago), I was sitting on a stool with a bucket of hot soapy water and a rag, washing an udder, the 17th or whatever of the morning, getting ready to hook up the machine. Whappo, her tail came around and hit me in the side of the head. First and only time that ever happened to me. When I turned reflexively toward her head, she had turned her head so she could see me - unusual but not unique. At the time, I thought she was pulling a practical joke. Maybe I grabbed her the wrong way, and she was letting me know. Whatever it was, I really doubt it was conditioned behavior.

The same goes for people. I know a woman who was certain that the differences between men and women are entirely due to the way their parents raise them - trucks for boys, dolls for girls, etc. Then her second child was a boy. End of that certainty.

Myself, I think we are born with temperment and assorted talents - positive (music, math, etc.) and sometimes negative, at least in our current social settings (stealing, violence, etc.) - and mix them together in enormously varied ways as we grow and learn. We are not the blank slates at birth that pure behaviorism assumes.

As to BDSM being innate or learned, I say both. Temperment includes an inclination toward dominance or submission - watch what happens in a dog pack or a family - and our environment modifies that inclination, expanding or reducing it.

At this stage of our knowledge, the details are clearly magic. Brain technology is way too advanced for the seeming certainties spouted by Skinner and lots of tv, etc. celebrities.

[veru_skjava]

*applauds*

Well said!

[InnerTemptress]

Originally posted by longrover
As to BDSM being innate or learned, I say both. Temperment includes an inclination toward dominance or submission - watch what happens in a dog pack or a family - and our environment modifies that inclination, expanding or reducing it.

i have to say i agree with this .. predisposed to lean to one or the other but environment (behaviour) gives us the opportunity to pursue or not to pursue and at what length.

i don't know that i'll ever get to the point where i'll be someone's slave 24/7 (i just don't know that it fits in with the rest of who i am) but sexually and in the company of those that are dominant, i am definitely submissive.

[Curtis]

I'm with longrover -- I think it's both. I have similar experiences with dogs as raised from birth and the personalital and societal dynamics are fascinating.

My opinion is that people have a genetic PREDISPOSITION toward dominance, submission, apathy or independance. This predisposition can absolutely be impacted by personal experience (practically has to be) and that MAY be where 'switches' come from -- people whose accumulated life experience runs counter to their genetic heritage.

Or, maybe I'm just full of shit.

[Mobius]

last post was june 2003 speaking of that were is Vero I miss her that little minx

[Curtis]

...besides, I specialize in rejuvenating dead threads.

Damn! I was just coming back here to edit my post and got here too late! Oh, well.

I forgot to say that, while I think the predisposition to a dominant or submissive personality is inherited, I bet the preference for specific activities (spanking, bondage, etc.) is learned.

Hey, bbeale. I'm enjoying the photos you've posted since I've been gone.

[Curtis]

Having read over a hundred other threads tonight, I can see that most of my compatriots would disagree about the desire for specific activities being learned behavior. (shrugs) Oh, well.

[Mobius]

Originally posted by Curtis


Hey, bbeale. I'm enjoying the photos you've posted since I've been gone.

bbeale who? for I am the mighty mobius!
Pay no attention to the man behind the curtin. He is of no concirn to you.

[Curtis]

No, sorry. Just can't bring myself to make the joke.

Nice pussy, by the way. Last night's date?