Gun History

[TomOfSweden]

False. Those who carry are not doing so "for the rush" or the desire "to shoot anybody" . I can't speak for residents in other states but in the 12 years I've carried and kept up with the laws and such concerning it in this state.... only One Permit holder has ever been charged with a gun related crime and it was the firing or shooting someone.. It was actually for brandishing.. which in this state means to show publically. what happened according to reports is he showed a friend at restaurant his new firearm thinking noone saw, but the waitress called the cops, hence brandishing.

I CCW, as does the wife and most of my rl friends. And I will ensure my son is able to carry when he is of age. Far as I know, I'm the only one to have pulled mine legally. I've pulled it three times in the 12 years I've carried. And I've not had to fire the first shot yet. Merely pulling it on the three who were criminally minded was enough to stop the situation. and of the three.. two were gangbanger members... I did use it once before i had my CCW to stop a rape/assault in the state of Florida while down there on vacation. Nothing happened as a result of my use; but there is one less criminal in the world today. And I would do it again for the same reason..

That's just it isn't it. Who has the right to make the judgement call to shoot? I don't want to go to jail for shooting someone when it was judged that I shot someone without a reason. Why not leave it to the cops. When everybody is armed you minimize the reaction time. Even if we live in a world where only criminals are armed, isn't that too a better scenario? Then they aren't in fear of being shot so they have less of an incentive to kill anyone? How is carrying guns not only a stupid ass macho thing that doesn't solve anything? Unless you're in a war off-course

[Guest 91108]

Perhaps if human kind had evolved to a level where the criminal mind wasn't so rampant i'd agree with you ToS.
As it is.. they are cockroaches on society. period.
If they seek to harm me or mine , take what I have sweat and bleed for, then I see they can bleed or worse of it. period. Not a lot to discuss there IMO.
Your morals would stop you.. Mine make me act.
Criminals kill so that there are no witnesses to point fingers.. surely you are not so naive as to not understand that. Some do it for that thrill as it's part of their psyche.
whatever the reason.. to allow yourself to be victimized .. well, you become victimized over and over until you decide you've had enough. I refuse to be the first time, and many others do. And that is a Right of being human. Nothing to do with manmade laws.
and I've judged it proper to shoot once as i've said and all three times I posted I had it aimed dead center between both their eyes. I do not intend to let them to live or to die, but to stop.
Dying is a result of their actions.. a chance they take when they assume doing criminal intentions.
Much like a druggie takes when he injects, snorts or whatever that drug. their choice .
Mine is merely to act accordingly to the situation. If they stop ... they have no problems with/from me. Other wise I would end their problems. And I'm fine with that.

Disagree all you want, won't help anything.

[annie]

Oooo goody, a nice thread!

I agree it is a nice thread!

First, Pearl Harbor: There are multiple views on this. The US embargo on oil had created a situation where Japan had to either surrender nearly all of their empire as untenable or invade sources of oil in the south pacific, which would provoke war with Australia & the US. Invading the US was never a viable option (no Japanese invasion was ever assembled, or ever close to being assembled), they simply wanted to destroy the US naval domination of the region. So...our armament situation had as much to do with it as our bubblegum production. On the other hand, they DID invade parts of Alaska...where the oil is...but Midway made that untenable, as their supplies would be vulnerable.

Ohhhhhhhhh I even got my history lesson for the day! Thanks EB! Always nice to learn something new!

As for fearing our governments, part of the reason we don't is that we don't HAVE to. We don't just have ideals, we have ways to enforce those ideals. The automatic response to such a thought as mass extermination in the US is "That would never happen; they wouldn't get away with it, people wouldn't stand for it." Well...who would make sure they wouldn't? Who would stand? Yes, there would be repurcussions, and knowing that eliminates the need for any repurcussions.

OK..I'm not normally one for debate but this is drawing me to say something... lol.

I agree and disagree on this point. I think it all depends on social status of those involved... and I think in some ways it does happen in the U.S. Although I will admit I would be hard pressed to give you "specifics" but there are ways of "exterminating" people without making it appear as a "Hitler/Nazi" act. Social/Economic Status is a way of doing that. Although I will also add, I don't always believe the government is fully to blame for that either.

And hell yes there would be repercussions... Look at the PA flight on 9/11 as a prime example. People, in crises, banded together and took what they felt was the necessary action. My only hope is that if I were ever in the same situation I would be one to speak and act and not sit, wait, and hide!

As to firearms. I know how to handle a weapon. I am certified. I am actually a fairly decent shot. I do NOT currently own a weapon though. Personal choice but one I made based on having young children in the house. Based on where I live I view the greater danger as a risk to one of my children obtaining access to a gun over my need to carry one for personal safety. My not carrying a gun by no way means that I am defenseless though. "Defenseless" is a state of mind imho... I can and will defend myself and my family, to the best of my ability, with or without a gun or against a person wielding a gun, if the need ever arises.

[Guest 91108]

Smiles to annie. and kudos.

[TomOfSweden]

Perhaps if human kind had evolved to a level where the criminal mind wasn't so rampant i'd agree with you ToS.
As it is.. they are cockroaches on society. period.
If they seek to harm me or mine , take what I have sweat and bleed for, then I see they can bleed or worse of it. period. Not a lot to discuss there IMO.
Your morals would stop you.. Mine make me act.
Criminals kill so that there are no witnesses to point fingers.. surely you are not so naive as to not understand that. Some do it for that thrill as it's part of their psyche.
whatever the reason.. to allow yourself to be victimized .. well, you become victimized over and over until you decide you've had enough. I refuse to be the first time, and many others do. And that is a Right of being human. Nothing to do with manmade laws.
and I've judged it proper to shoot once as i've said and all three times I posted I had it aimed dead center between both their eyes. I do not intend to let them to live or to die, but to stop.
Dying is a result of their actions.. a chance they take when they assume doing criminal intentions.
Much like a druggie takes when he injects, snorts or whatever that drug. their choice .
Mine is merely to act accordingly to the situation. If they stop ... they have no problems with/from me. Other wise I would end their problems. And I'm fine with that.

Disagree all you want, won't help anything.

"Criminal mind"? You do realise that you are making an ass load of assumptions creating quite mythical monster of crime. I don't buy it in the least. There's a number of various law books that can be offended. Moral law is one, the legal is another. Culture creates crime. I don't believe in evil.

And besides, people can steal your shit without 1) resorting to violence and 2) break any civil laws. I got stolen today. I got a hefty extra fee slapped onto my plane ticket today for a service I hadn't asked for. That's stealing and taking away what I've sweat and bled for and no gun in the world could have helped me.

...and besides. Your scenario about criminals shooting innocent witnesses....I mean Jesus. Watch TV too much by any chance?

[bthest]

That's just it isn't it. Who has the right to make the judgement call to shoot? I don't want to go to jail for shooting someone when it was judged that I shot someone without a reason.

Well if its my life being threatened then I should make the call on what is a reasonable force. Thats the very basis of self-defense.

How is carrying guns not only a stupid ass macho thing that doesn't solve anything? Unless you're in a war off-course

Because it can save someone's life.

[Guest 91108]

not experienced real crime ToS?

I don't see any assumptions in my post at all.
and I think there was crime way before civilization much less the breaks into various cultures.
the assumptions are yours as usual.. with your way of discussing.

[TomOfSweden]

not experienced real crime ToS?

I don't see any assumptions in my post at all.
and I think there was crime way before civilization much less the breaks into various cultures.
the assumptions are yours as usual.. with your way of discussing.

he he. I used to be a criminal. Not my proudest hour. But I ran away from home when I was 16 and had to solve shit. Crime paid well.

To make a long story short. I was denied welfare because I was underage, but I didn't see living at home as a viable option. I was 16 and those where the options I could see. Steal stuff. I was in a gang where we stole stuff as a life style.

[Warbaby1943]

"Criminal mind"? You do realise that you are making an ass load of assumptions creating quite mythical monster of crime. I don't buy it in the least. There's a number of various law books that can be offended. Moral law is one, the legal is another. Culture creates crime. I don't believe in evil.

And besides, people can steal your shit without 1) resorting to violence and 2) break any civil laws. I got stolen today. I got a hefty extra fee slapped onto my plane ticket today for a service I hadn't asked for. That's stealing and taking away what I've sweat and bled for and no gun in the world could have helped me.

...and besides. Your scenario about criminals shooting innocent witnesses....I mean Jesus. Watch TV too much by any chance?

Well it is obvious you don't know the criminal mind and the example you used for getting robbed makes no sense when discussing gun laws.

Over here a lot of times gangs make new members go out, rob, and then kill someone just as an initiation. There is no way in hell you will convince me that more people carrying would not discourage a lot of that. If these fucking punks even think there is a chance they may get shot and killed it may easily deter them from killing someone just for the pleasure of killing or as an initiation.

Those of us who have the CWP don't go around looking for people to shoot just so you are clear on that.

[Guest 91108]

ToS, glad you stole over there and not in my yard.
edited to add that if that was the only option you saw .. you are basically telling us that you understand the criminal mind and you think it's ok.
That won't fly here very weel.


Thanks WB for that post.

[bthest]

Also, who wants to stake their life on the kindness of criminals and trust them not to kill?

[annie]

*clears my throat a bit in preparation*

Gentleman....

WONDERFUL discussion going on here! BUT... getting a bit close to flaming on some of those comments.... *looks around at the potential suspects*

Everyone take a step back and this thread won't get hurt...

*giggles*

Serious Guys... please keep it civil. My edit button and I are on the outs at the moment!

[Guest 91108]

yes Mod Annie. hugs ya.

[TomOfSweden]

ToS, glad you stole over there and not in my yard.
edited to add that if that was the only option you saw .. you are basically telling us that you understand the criminal mind and you think it's ok.
That won't fly here very weel.


Thanks WB for that post.

I don't think it's ok. I think stealing is wrong. You and WB are creating a mythical monster that doesn't exist. I stole because 1) I needed money and 2) I felt somehow justified. I also felt extremely sorry for myself and used that emotion to cover up any other emotion I might have felt about doing damage to others. I don't defend what I did or think it was justified. It was down to simple survival. When one is out of options morals erode.

I'm sure that it's the same kind of dynamics among every criminal group in the entire world. The important thing to remember is that guns would not have stopped me or my friends. We would still have stolen stuff, only adapted it to incorporate guns. Never forget that just because you can see options they can take in their life, doesn't mean they see it.

The people in my gang either grew out of it, (like me) or they moved onto hard drugs and died. I can't think of a single person of them who's still into crime....or scratch that. I don't know a single person from my old gang who's into crime where there's victims.

To quote an old friend of mine, "I think everybody should go to jail for a while so they stop being so fucking scared of it". I don't agree with him at all but can you imagine the mentality of the man saying it? Can you imagine the shift in morals required to reach that mental space? That guy is a lunatic though. Crazy mofo.

edit: my point is that guns are irrelevant. If you want to stop criminals stealing you have to remove the underlying reasons. Which usually are extreme poverty.

edit: I was also incredibly lucky in that I was never caught. There's a huge difference in the options available to the people who get caught for their youthful transgressions. Anybody who's done jail time is effectively shut out from getting any legit job. No matter why they ended up commiting crime to begin with. One of my closest friend back then is a high boss at IBM rational. He was 1) heavily into heroin and any drugs he could find. 2) a career criminal doing everything he could. But he grew out of it. He never got caught so he had options in life. And now he's clean and responsible. Another friend but who got caught, and now he's got some loser job within the porn industry. Another friend who went to jail had to start an IT company of his own because there was no way he could get hired. He's raking in the big bucks now. But it was all but obvious he would make it for years.

I'm ranting now. But don't judge peoples character too harshly because they find themselves on the other side of the fence. Extreme situations will create extreme measures no matter who you are.

[bthest]

As someone who owns guns for both self defense and pleasure (and as someone open carries a gun from time to time), I can say that I don't wish to shoot or kill anyone and the thought of taking anyone's life gives me sickening feeling and certainly does not give me a "rush." But I would rather shoot someone than let myself or loved ones be murdered. I also don't consider my self a macho man who wants to feel big about himself. In fact I hate confrontation and will gladdy capitulate if it means avoiding a fight.

And I find such statements about law abiding gun owners such as myself to be personally insulting.

I also see how "disarmed = subject" can be insulting as well and I generally steer away from using the "copy and paste" info in the OP when discussing gun control.

[Guest 91108]

...

I also see how "disarmed = subject" can be insulting as well and I generally steer away from using the "copy and paste" info in the OP when discussing gun control.

Yes, I can agree on that as well.

[Warbaby1943]

If we forget the stealing aspect of this so that we don't feel sorry for the criminal element and focus on all the lives that have been taken by low life vermin just so they can get their kicks maybe it would be a little easier to understand why some people feel safer in protecting themselves rather than letting it up to the police to do that for them.

I am about to take a refresher course to renew my CWP license which means my first one is about to expire and they last for 4 years. In that almost 4 years I have never once carried my weapon with me because I really don't want to ever be faced with the decision of having to pull it and actually fire it at another "human being." I am renewing my permit because I feel it is my right, as a law abiding citizen, to be able to carry if I so choose. No more, no less. I also feel it is necessary that we who believe as I do continue to fight so that others may keep the right to bear arms.

I see what our law makers and our laws do to our citizens now and don't like all the rights and privileges I have lost in the last 60 years. I shudder to think how much worse it would be without the ordinary citizen having the right to own weapons.

I have seen and been in discussions like this before and I have never seen anyone change their mind in their beliefs. However, I do think discussions like this are healthy.

[Guest 91108]

Good Post WB, and you are right.. opposing sides rarely change sides.
is why these discussions get so intense. They bring in past emotions with some. I've had some very heated ones in the past.

[Warbaby1943]

Good Post WB, and you are right.. opposing sides rarely change sides.
is why these discussions get so intense. They bring in past emotions with some. I've had some very heated ones in the past.

I understand and I get upset once we get something going and the threat of flaming appears. Sometimes it is no more than emotions speaking and after all we are all adults or at least we say we are when we sign up here.

I'm not advocating calling anyone a dumb mother fucker. I'm only saying that we should be treated as adults. If one of us is on the verge of flaming then we should be warned and not left guessing who the comment is directed at. If I said anything that was close to flaming I want to know about it otherwise it may happen again and again without me knowing it was even close to being considered a flame.

It does at times make it very difficult to say what you want but I have not seen one instance here where I personally would have even considered anything a flame.

Now back to gun control. I'm against it as you may guess. However I am not against training to make it safe to own and carry a weapon. Enough said.

[nk_lion]

I really like this thread. I'm still undecided towards guns, sometimes I think the world would be better without them, and sometimes guns are just as dangerous as a regular knife found in a kitchen.

This thread is giving me a lot to think about, thank you people, from both sides of this arguement.

[Logic1]

aaaah I wondered where this thread went.

I think that the main reason why we get such a heated discussion here is because Tom and I live in Sweden where we havent had a war for the past 200+ years and you in the US have had lots of fighting in the past few hundred years.
Our societys look different and we dont have the same amount of violent crimes nor the same amount of people carrying guns. There might not be a link between the two or there might.
Swedes cant get a permit to carry a concealed weapon at all and we dont feel as "scared" of what our government does as it seems like you do from your posts. We never had the need for every person to carry a gun to defend themselves even.

Simply put our past and present look very different and that is why our opinions differ.
It is most definitely an interresting discussion though.

my 5 eurodollars

[bthest]

I think that the main reason why we get such a heated discussion here is because Tom and I live in Sweden where we havent had a war for the past 200+ years and you in the US have had lots of fighting in the past few hundred years.

Well, the last war here was 150 years ago so we aren't that far off from you guys.

I think it has to do with Europe's long history gun control which dates back to the middle ages. People just accept it as normal.

Where as in America, guns were necessary for survival among regular folks and therefor we have developed a society that favors unrestricted gun ownership.

[Guest 91108]

I agree difference in war here and wars abroad is very different ...
People have forgotten that it can and will come home again one day.

WWI and WWII was not internal.

political conflicts using military , police actions, etc should not be called wars.
Examples Korean War wasn't ours truly. Vietnam Wasn't a war although it felt like it to those who went. Grenada wasn't a war. Gulf War I & II are hardly war, though the government is waging a form of it. I do not think it's the same or we would have the draft back. ( which may yet come, if they don't bring the troops home. see sustainability in searches. )

Way I look at it .. We've only had two wars here.
And I won't go into the second one ATM.

[TomOfSweden]

aaaah I wondered where this thread went.

I think that the main reason why we get such a heated discussion here is because Tom and I live in Sweden where we havent had a war for the past 200+ years and you in the US have had lots of fighting in the past few hundred years.
Our societys look different and we dont have the same amount of violent crimes nor the same amount of people carrying guns. There might not be a link between the two or there might.
Swedes cant get a permit to carry a concealed weapon at all and we dont feel as "scared" of what our government does as it seems like you do from your posts. We never had the need for every person to carry a gun to defend themselves even.

Simply put our past and present look very different and that is why our opinions differ.
It is most definitely an interresting discussion though.

my 5 eurodollars

I don't think that's the reason at all. First off I think it's the fact that USA has a lot more poverty than western Europe that's the big difference. Western Europe has a lot more welfare and state aid to people in shity situations. This means that we don't get as many desperate down and outs over here. I think that the root of virtually all crime is poverty and/or lack of hope in life. Increased crime rates is just a natural development of USA's economic policies. I don't think there's an obvious right or wrong here. We make choices and pay the price. USA is as a whole a lot richer than Europe, so I'm sure it's policies benefit USA in the long run financially. But it creates a lot harsher life for them now. No matter if you're rich or poor.

The gun issue is completely separate. I think that the combination of poverty induced elevated crime rates makes it so very dangerous to legalize guns in the USA. Finland and Austria being prime examples of how legalising guns is in itself not a bad thing. Just looking at the guns themselves I don't think is helpful to understanding gun crime, no matter your stance.

A couple of years ago I was in a business meeting with an older Hells Angels guy. Hell's Angels is Sweden's most infamous Mafia organisation. This meeting was nothing to do with crime at all. They've got plenty of legit business ventures and this might have been one of them.

Anyhoo... To cut a long story short. We had a long discussion and ended up having a heart to heart. When I told him that I didn't understand the appeal of joining an organisation like the Hells Angels he said something along the lines of, the Mafia is for people without strong father figures. It's for people with no structure or purpose in their life who need a firm hand and a clear social function in life.

I thought it was pretty profound. Beside never ever have expected to hear such a candid or well formulated answer from that low-browed massive mound of meat. Never forget that the people who join this shit are all very young. My interpretation was that, they might tell other or even themselves that they're in it for the bitches, money and drugs...but as always it's never that simple. And as we all know. Once they're in they can't leave so they off-course adjust their morals to fit.

For me personally. The state finally took custody over me and gave me money and a place to stay so I didn't need to steal stuff any longer. I was still up to no good and got into a lot of trouble. But the increased security in my life meant that I went on to other types of crime. A little bit more safer and friendly things. I ran a string of illegal all-nighter clubs. Selling alcohol without a permit is very illegal in Sweden. And then as I said, I went legit all together. I have a feeling that my early life story is pretty common for any criminal. But I never got convicted of anything. Which I think was the key to how I could get out of it.

There's no special criminal mind and I doubt there's any evil gene. I'm sure there's a violent gene. But that doesn't in anyway have to lead to crime, or even violence. It wasn't until I was 23 that I realised that I'd been in a constant state of semi-panic attack all my life. The first time I ever felt calm and safe was when I was then, at 23. It's hard to explain. But if you've never experienced an emotion. It's very hard to long for it or to figure out what you might need in life to feel it. It's very hard to think straight when your mind is in a state of panic. I was never all that into drugs, but if I'd been...wow....that would have been fucked. awww... it's hard to explain. But this issue is so far beyond good and evil or right and wrong. It's about survival. Both mentally and literally.

My old gang friend at Rational got a girl friend who helped him get off heroin and straighten up his life. I don't actually know his back story but he was very young when he got into crime life to. According to him, he stopped doing crime the second he could see another viable option for him in his life. Nobody knows his background where he works now. Nobody would believe him if he told them.

It's not only my experience but it's also science. When you punish criminals harshly and put them away, all you're doing is breeding criminals. The worst thing that can happen is that they identify with it. Which tends to happen in jail. Seeing it as a way of life rather than a tool to survive. All the old friends I have which went to jail are all such fuck ups. They all have at best dead end jobs, still do drugs and fuck teenage chicks even though they're waaaay too old for it. And the ones with kids are even worse. They're hardly working hard to make the world a better place. All thanks to the forces of justice. It's not that they're all that bad people. But who the fuck hires an ex-convict for anything interesting?

As I said. The only way to combat crime is to take away the underlying reason. There's no obvious simple solution. Especially not carrying guns like some vigilante macho nerd protecting the good from the evil. It might feel like you're doing something good but until the criminals needs can be met some other way he'll just keep going. As a crime victim your only two options that make any difference is 1) shoot to kill. Problem solved for ever. 2) just forget about it and call your insurance company. Or your goal is simple revenge. Can't really argue that one. But it will only make matters worse. The state pays for jail time which comes from your pocket. Unless you're a criminal in case it won't. It's a lose - lose.

Guns as a deterrent against crime doesn't work. There's plenty of research to back that one up. I doubt if it's a deterrent against ones government turning into a dictatorship either. There's a massive difference between a soldier and a private citizen other than just guns.

I'm very ranty now. And I apologise for that. But this is something I both feel strongly about and know a lot about. Since this was a very long time ago I've gotten a lot of perspective.

[Rhabbi]

I have not looked at this thread for a while, so am weighing in late. I am going to come down on the side of people owning weapons though. What I see happening in the US can only be stopped if enough people have the power to speak up. The erosion of our freedoms since 9/11 is inexcusable, and I know that Bin Laden is laughing his fool head off at the Patriot Act.

The ACLU is able to speak up and fight in court because there are a bunch of people who own guns who will fight the government if it tried anything against them. And anyone who thinks democracies are safe need not even look to history for examples of democracies gone bad. Look at what is happening in Nicaragua. Chavez was elected there, bit there will never be another election as long as he is alive. This is not speculation, it is what is happening now.

Gun control does not work. I know that proponents can point to Switzerland and a few other countries as proof that it does, but are they really examples of gun control working, or of national pride? Switzerland has a long history of being independant, and there army is respected on reputation more than ability. If any country were to seriously decide to attack Switzerland they would fall rather quickly, despite the advantages that they have defensively from the Alps, and the fact that every able bodied person is technically in the Swiss Armed Forces, which is almost a militia in structure.

Since the original framers of the US Constition envisioned a militia more than an army, perhaps the reason that Switzerland actually has effective gun control is that they have a well armed militia. I wonder what will happen to the citezens of Switzerland if the movement to disband the army ever actually succeeds.

[TomOfSweden]

Sorry about stealing the thread away. I can get a bit emotional about this. So that's why it's so incoherent.

According to Pinker we all like to think of ourselves as if we understand the world a little bit better than everybody else. We like to think that we are a little bit more moral than everybody else. The problem is off-course that it's never or very seldom the case. No matter how much it looks like it to us. That's a quote BTW.

I understand that we need to create these mythical evil and vicious people who are purely destructive people to maintain the image of our own moral greatness.

Just like those gang bangers WB was describing. It's obviously bollocks. What possible gain could they or the gang get from killing a random person? They'll get the cops on their case for one! I don't believe that has ever happened no matter what the paper says. Beside the fact that the murder of a random person is immoral to everybody, no matter your stance. Nobody thinks murder is "nothing" or "cool". Whenever people get killed because of street crime I think is mostly down to freaky random shit that nobody had planned. I think it's at best sensationalist press talking.

[bthest]

But this is something I both feel strongly about and know a lot about.

I beg to differ. You don't seem have much knowledge on US self-defense laws, gun laws and the gun owning culture (which represents over 80,000,000 people in the US). Such as resorting to stereotypes such as "macho men" and "vigilante" which couldn't be further from the truth.

Just my observations.

[TomOfSweden]

I beg to differ. You don't seem have much knowledge on US self-defense laws, gun laws and the gun owning culture (which represents over 80,000,000 people in the US). Such as resorting to stereotypes such as "macho men" and "vigilante" which couldn't be further from the truth.

Just my observations.

Sorry. I wasn't talking about that. I was talking about the motives to commit crime. And you are quite correct in that I don't understand why US citizens feel the need to carry weapons. If that's down to lack of knowledge I'll leave open. All the motives I've heard so far have all been pretty superficial though. But hey, who am I to judge? I don't live there. But if you look at statistics of murder rates in USA and compare them to most other countries we all see that something is amiss in USA. Whether it's down to the gun laws, gun culture or something else is an other debate all together.

[Guest 91108]

I could argue much is amiss in other countries.
Much is amiss when .gov decides it can defend citizens better than they can themselves.. while elderly are beaten regularly for the measing things that are taken. where is the government then?
What is amiss when the goverment decides to gas defenseless people as it did in Iraq?
What is amiss when people can't walk this planet without worrying of manmade borders and walls that prevent us from enjoying all that is natural nad beautiful.
What is amiss when culture overrides the knowing and understanding your fellow man regardless of language?

Yes ToS much is amiss but it does not all reside in the US.
Open your eyes and stop reading so much and look around and experience the world as it is.

[nia25]

It seems to me that the debate here is not about guns, but about crime. THere is so much more to guns than defending yourself if your house is robbed. As a teenager I learned how to handle guns at around 14 years old. For my family and I it is a sport. Why should something I enjoy doing be illegal just because some idiot gets a hold of a gun and decides to shoot people? Now given the chance if need be I am sure that I would use it in defense; but owning a gun would not make me feel safer or make me feel macho. The only reason I do not own a gun right now is because my hobbies cost more than what is in the bank. Given the chance I will buy a gun; and no I will not use it to shoot someone. The real question here is why does the government feel the need for gun control? They have made illegal guns that are semi automatic because they are dangerous. Sorry but I think a bullet from a .22 can kill someone just as much as anything coming out of a semi automatic. I feel that if people were more educated on the use of guns that maybe it wouldn't be such a problem. There will always be some idiot out there that will get a hold of a gun and shoot someone or a bunch of people. More than likely that idiot who does so will get that gun illegally. Obviously it is the law abiding citizens who are being punished for other's stupidity. But, that's how the world is.