Saying the "L" word...

[His_little one]

So I’d like to hear about others’ experiences-- subs/slaves did you say “I love you first” to your Dom/Master….. Doms/Masters is there some rule in your “Dom handbook” that says hold out till your sub/slave says it first? If so, why??????
(I’m looking only @ Male Dom/fem sub serious relationship dynamics here)
I’m at that wonderful point in my relationship (about 2 months in) the haze has settled, the infatuation faded and I know for sure it’s love. I want to say it but dammit – why do I have to say it first ? If he can’t see it in my submission to him then …… This situation is frustrating and I know in essence I’m doing it to myself. I want to say it to him, but at the same time I don’t want him to feel pressured to say it back to me (No, I really don’t care if he says it or not I know how guys can be-- This is truly about me wanting him to know how I feel) It’s been on the tip of my tongue for like a week now and I guess I should probably just say it but then comes the how and when…. I’d rather say it in person but it’ll be another week… I guess I should just stop worrying and let it come out naturally…

[cadence]

Does it matter whether or not it is a D/s relationship or a regular vanilla one?
I think that the same feelings would still apply.

However I would not say the L word regardless as to what type of relationship I am in.
Not that I am cold hearted or unfeeling, I just find the word to be very uncomfortable for me and I could not even begin to tell you why.

Personally I find the word to be just a word, and I honestly have never been comfortable saying it to a person I am involved with. I will care very deeply for someone, and my actions do show that, but to say I love you makes me cringe.

I do love my family and tell them that, but it is an entirely different meaning all together in that respect.

Sorry I realize that it is not the answer you were looking for, but really it is not a matter of when, where, or how you say it. It is when the time feels comfortable for you.

[~faerie~]

i have found in the few relationships that i have had i always said it first..i sometimes wish they would have said it first, but i also felt like it was a very special gift that i gave them. offering your love to someone is the ultimate gift and sacrifice...imho you should not hold that back...perhaps they are feeling the same way and do not know how or when to say it either.

[Naomisagoodgirl]

I don't like all the pressure that gets put on saying it. I think it's more important to feel it and show it. The whole "say it hope they say it back" thing doesn't sit well with me; it feels like a silly game. That said, I do find myself stressing about "will he say it, should I say it?" I try not to this, and just say it when I'm sure I feel it.

My master does not like to talk about his feelings, so I never really expected him to say it first. Maybe Doms don't have a rule about not saying it first, but tend to be stoic about their feelings and so usually don't?

Like you said, he probably knows you love him by your actions and your submission. He probably assumes you know how he feels about you. You sound like you already know this, and it's just stressing you out to not have it said. I felt like that, anyway. I knew it was stupid (like I said I don't like the "who will say it game") but I couldn't keep myself from doubting. So I said it and everything was a million times better. I remember the conversation exactly:

Me: I love you.
Him *This is good nod*
HORRIBLE SILENCE OF ANXIETY DEATH
Me: How do you feel about me?
Him, taken aback,: I love you.

He said it in this tone that was like "Of course, you silly girlie."

So, having taken the plunge myself, I say go for it. The worse that happens is he knows exactly how you feel, which can only be a good thing.

[Logic1]

I have said it first and I have said it last. It all depends. Nothing fancy behind this statement. Merely stating a fact. Never even thought about it

[angelic.zest]

im usually the type of person, who will hide there true feelings and keep it bottled til its ready to explored lOL...but my Dom has said it first and now he has shown me, i can be more open with him and i now tell him every chance i get how much i love him and what he means to me, as he does the samething..

[Arria]

kisses Namoisagoodgirl for saying this:

"Me: I love you.
Him *This is good nod*
HORRIBLE SILENCE OF ANXIETY DEATH
Me: How do you feel about me?
Him, taken aback,: I love you."

I loved the "horrible silence" part best (holds sides, howling with laughter), as I do so know how that feels!

Kind regards
Arria

[Arria]

Now, to answer the original question, here is my opinion:

- Men in general are not that much into making big words about that feeling, they feel more comfortable with proving their feeling by actions and facts. I. e., if they did not like to be with you, they would have left already.
If they say it at all, I think it is mainly done to please us.
An evil example of this would be a guy who treats the woman like shit, and when she complains, he would say "BUT I love you!!"
Regarding that, I go with a friend who once formulated that fact as "Actions speak louder than words."

- I also got the impression that men prefer to speak their feelings only if they can be sure they are met by the woman´s feelings. So help the poor guy and say it first! *lol*

I do not think there is a difference between men and Dom men. It is not like Dom men were an extra species.

The only ones who might have trouble speaking kind words are wannabe Doms who think it appropriate for a Dom to show an allover inconsiderate, impolite behaviour, like not opening doors for a sub woman, or not offering their seating place in a train for an elderly person.

This sort of wannabe Dom disgusts me, and I treat them with less respect, reverence and kindness than any other person, both within the BDSM community and outside. The ones of you who got an impression of me already are likely to know that. :-)

Kind regards
Arria

[Euryleia]

I think that the longer you stress over saying vs not saying the more likely you are to drive yourself crazy. lol

Saying those words should be organic to the person and to the moment. I've said it first, I've said it and gotten both the horrible silence and the 'that's nice' response, its been said to me first. Every relationship is different.

If, instead of the feeling, you're more concerned about the game of who says it first, then I think you should go back and reasses your feelings. Love isn't one up-manship.

That being said, many men seem to be socialized to not be as in touch with their feelings. They might assume that you know what they feel (ie Naomisagoodgirl's Master thinking she was a silly girl for having to ask). They aren't actually holding out on you, they just think it goes without saying.

[Ozme52]

Now, to answer the original question, here is my opinion:

- Men in general are not that much into making big words about that feeling, they feel more comfortable with proving their feeling by actions and facts. I. e., if they did not like to be with you, they would have left already.
If they say it at all, I think it is mainly done to please us.
An evil example of this would be a guy who treats the woman like shit, and when she complains, he would say "BUT I love you!!"
Regarding that, I go with a friend who once formulated that fact as "Actions speak louder than words."

- I also got the impression that men prefer to speak their feelings only if they can be sure they are met by the woman´s feelings. So help the poor guy and say it first! *lol*I do not think there is a difference between men and Dom men. It is not like Dom men were an extra species.

Arria, I think this is certainly true among younger men before their self-confidence kicks in.

I also think that there is good reason to discuss the meaning of the word 'Love' between couples. From the "Hate" thread, of all places, I wrote:

Love my parents.
Love my father.
Love my mother.
Love my brother and/or sisters.
Love my friends.
Love my best friend.
Love my girl/boy friend.
Love my spouse.
Love my children.
Love my country.
Love a cold beer on a hot day.

One word. So many nuances of meaning. Each a different emotion. (...)

The subject is always the same... the object changes the meaning of the verb.

I think another reason men avoid using the word is because they assume doing so is a commitment to exactly the same kind and level of love the woman means... yet without knowing what kind or level of love she means. I suspect we just don't comunicate enough about the definitions.

I'm much more comfortable now than I was as a young man expressing my feelings... in part because I recognize the gamut of meanings implied and because I try to have that conversation. I recognize it is a small gift that gives great pleasure and I'm more willing to give it when it is understood by both what level of commitment goes with it.

The only ones who might have trouble speaking kind words are wannabe Doms who think it appropriate for a Dom to show an allover inconsiderate, impolite behaviour, like not opening doors for a sub woman, or not offering their seating place in a train for an elderly person.

This sort of wannabe Dom disgusts me, and I treat them with less respect, reverence and kindness than any other person, both within the BDSM community and outside. The ones of you who got an impression of me already are likely to know that. :-)

I agree, but also question when "love" is used too freely. To an extent where it becomes pro forma and is given without any emotional content. It becomes the equivilent of a "Hi, How are ya?" Just given because it is an expectation.

[Arria]

Hello Ozme,

Thanks for your feedback.

Regarding this:
"I also got the impression that men prefer to speak their feelings only if they can be sure they are met by the woman´s feelings."
and your reply to it:
"Arria, I think this is certainly true among younger men before their self-confidence kicks in."
I have to say this is not at all what I had in mind when I wrote that. I was thinking about a man who had before been mistreated and ridiculed by immature girls for having said "I love you". Apparently that made them believe they could take his feelings for granted, act out on him, and even cheat him.

Regarding what you wrote:
"I agree, but also question when "love" is used too freely. To an extent where it becomes pro forma and is given without any emotional content."

I totally am with you here. E. g. hearing it from a one-night-stand would make me freak out when I was younger. I would yell such a guy right out the door.
"I love your body" - ok, fine with me.
"I want to fuck you 20 more times" - easy, no offense taken.
But "I love you" after like what, 5 hours, none of which has been spent _talking_?
Boy, you might love my body, but you just as sure may hate my personality.

I dislike it when it is said without meaning. I hate it even more when it is said to make up for some bullshit the man did.

As for your definitions: Of course there are many sorts of love, but I daresay Hislittleone referred clearly to a one-to-one male Dom/fem sub relationship.

Kind regards
Arria

[Polaris]

I'm so with you on that, Arria. Nothing offends me more than men throwing an "I love you" at me after the obligatory "You eyes are as deep as the ocean or some such sappy phrase"...I mean, you've seen me once and annoyed me for 5 minutes, and now you love me? Please. I'm not an idiot.

As for the original question...I don't think it matters who says it first. My use of the L-word is a sparse one, I only say it when I absolutely mean it. When I absolutely mean it, though, it becomes necessary. From the three times I said I've said it first one time (and he laughed and said "you sure as hell don't mean it...wait *stops laughing* you do mean it? Me? Really? Oh gosh, I love you too -- we were together almost 8 years after that). I wanted to say it first the other time...it was on the tip of my tongue for like a week, but didn't really come out due to the circumstances of the whole affair...so it got morphed into "I feel so attracted to you" or "you sure are special to me" -- he finally broke the ice by saying it first. I remember there were many other words after that confession, he wouldn't let me fit in a "I love you too" anywhere...but he later told me that the moment he really realised that he loved me he had to tell me because it would have been like withholding something important from me.

So, I'd say if you truly love him, tell him. Love in itself doesn't come with conditions, so just because you feel like you feel he shouldn't feel pressured. Anyway, just my two cents!

[_ID_]

I've said it first, and said it second. I don't say it until I feel it, and if I don't respond with 'I like you very much'.

Depending on the person, and what their previous relationship was like, as well as how long ago. Saying you love them too soon can set off alarms in their head. I know it did me, very recently in fact, and I had to tell them as much. It hurt them, and ultimately severed the relationship.

[~faerie~]

I do not think there is a difference between men and Dom men. It is not like Dom men were an extra species

Are you sure about that? *laughs and grins*

[Dragon's muse]

Dragon said it first way back when. Actually what he said was a very calm, "We're in love, you know."

i think i responded with, "What's this 'we' business? Do you have a tapeworm?" (i had not learned to curb my smart-ass side back then)

In our case, i was the one who fought it like a tiger. i could have long, boring debates on the intellectual validity of the concept of love. (Yes, i was a severe intellectual geek in my younger days.)

[Naomisagoodgirl]

kisses Namoisagoodgirl for saying this:

Arria

Thanks Arria, glad I'm not alone .

I saw this silly analysis today and thought of this discussion: http://www.inklingmagazine.com/artic...ng-i-love-you/

[Euryleia]

http://www.inklingmagazine.com/artic...ng-i-love-you/

I think that's the funniest explanation of calculus that I've ever read. Thanks for sharing it.

[His_little one]

Euryleia -- you had some very valid points. I am still stressing about it and it's absolutely driving me crazy! I swear i'm telling him the next time I see him in person. I think your pointing out that sometimes it's not so much them holding out on us but them thinking it goes without saying is a very valid one and I never thought of it that way even though he (self) admittedly doesn't do well talking about his feelings.

Thanks everyone for your thoughts and stories. Naomi -- I think you're correct in that Dom's tend to be more stoic in their feelings which is why i think that it does indeed make a difference if it's a Ds relationship or a vanilla one.

[nia25]

After being together for two weeks I wound up high on morphine in the ER.
Me: I love you
Him: I love you too
(remember... high on morphine)
Me: No... seriously... I love you.
Him: Seriously... I love you too.
Me: I really, really love you.
Him: *laughs* I really, really love you too.

This went on for about thirty minutes until I passed out . Nothing like stating your true feelings in a traditional way! (Which we've never done... you should hear the way he proposed!)

Just tell him hun. I remember how awful it is to play the should I game... it's no fun. If he doesn't feel the same then it is better you find out now anyway.

[His_blizzard]

I have a funny vanilla love story that so shows how stubborn males can be and it makes no difference if they are Dom or not.
My late husband and I had been dating for over 2 years when this incident occured.
I had professed my love to him often, beginning about 4 months after we met. The typical response was usually "and I like you very much". Grrrr!!! Finally one night I had had it. I had said "I love you" and he said the usual. I went into a wild rage about how I had wasted over 2 years of my life for this and blah, blah, blah. Well, you don't need all of the ugly details. I ended it by pointing to the door and screeching at the top of my lungs "And if you can't love me by now you never will so GET THE FUCK OUT OF MY HOUSE!!!!" He looked at me with total fear (lol) and whispered "I love you". Tres' romantic, eh? The best part is that he never stopped saying it after that, and I knew he meant it with all of his heart. I am truly blessed because as they wheeled him to ICU just before he passed, I said "I love you Baby" and he responded "I love you Sweetie". Those were our last words to each other. It doesn't get better than that! "peace" ~blizz~

[Logic1]

Sweet sweet ending on a sad ending kinda blizzard.
thanx for sharing.

[TomStraye]

Maybe I am just a hard-arse but I have always seen D/s and love as two entirely separate forces of Nature. In other words, it is no secret that I love my alpha more than life and have soaked up too many of her tears to doubt that she loves me no less in return. But love is not the basis of our relationship. The promises that bind us were made long before we became lovers and will be kept even were we to end up hating each other.

That’s what I mean about the two being separate. I think that is what makes D/s relationships so special. Sadly, atoo often, feelings shift like sand but promises are rocks upon which castles can be built.

That is why alpha and I both agree that our love for each other is a happy accident and unexpected bonus. That is why I think we also agree that, being different, love makes its own rules! It doesn’t care who or what you are, it just takes you over and will have its way whether you like it or not.

To put it another way, I don’t think it matters who says it first. I don’t think it matters if nobody says it. If it really is love, you just both know that its there. It’s like standing in front of a mountain. You can just feel its majesty. Its existence does not depend upon words.

As it happens, though, I think I said it first. Then I think we both cried with relief at finally having it said and out in the open. I know I did.

Listen to your heart and to hell with handbooks. If what you feel truly is love, there is no user-manual! It just is!

[subtlescreams]

Dragon said it first way back when. Actually what he said was a very calm, "We're in love, you know."

i think i responded with, "What's this 'we' business? Do you have a tapeworm?" (i had not learned to curb my smart-ass side back then)

In our case, i was the one who fought it like a tiger. i could have long, boring debates on the intellectual validity of the concept of love. (Yes, i was a severe intellectual geek in my younger days.)

Muse, I seriously laughed so hard I hurt from your post... me, Im not a big fan of the L word either. Lots of bad shyte gos down in the "name of love" but sometimes...sometimes it happens.

<channelling Forrest Gump> And thats all I have to say about that. </channelling Forrest Gump>

[tora]

I also got the impression that men prefer to speak their feelings only if they can be sure they are met by the woman´s feelings. So help the poor guy and say it first! *lol*

What of the man who declaires his undying love for you right at the end of your first sexual encounter with them? or worse in the middle of it. can make a normaly wounderful thing go sour very quickly if you dont feel the same back. Then your left with the awkward choice of saying it back or kissing them to try avoid answering them or even pretending not to have heard em.

I guess its a two sided coin, i too avoid the word love dirrected at a person in that context puerly for fear that it it wouldnt be returned :/ or cause am unsure am ready for all that comes with it.

[crazy_grrluk]

S1 and I are always arguing about who loves who the most and it can go on for ages! To the point ill give in and say ok we love each other the same LOL

[jeanne]

S1 and I are always arguing about who loves who the most and it can go on for ages! To the point ill give in and say ok we love each other the same LOL

That's sweet...

[SheepishJaina]

I've only said the "L" word to a few people and meant it with all my heart. So my experiences are rather limited as to what to expect. However, from what I've experienced, and what I see go on, I'd expect that most submissives are more likely to share their feelings. Going a step further, I'd say most female submissives are more likely to share their feelings first.

In one relationship- he said it first, but we had been together for more than a year, after having known each other most of our lives. We'd started dating initially because we both had an interest in BDSM and had felt a connection. At the time he had convinced me that he was a dominant, though our relationship was heavily vanilla. (college roomies kinda squash the chances for a lot of things) Towards the end of the relationship, I had realized that while he can be dominant at times, his real preference was towards submissive. (way to go Jaina, skew the results by throwing a switch in there)

So, in that case, I think he said it first because he's more in tune with his emotions than most men I know. Is this becuase he has strong sub tendoncies? I couldn't say. My suspicion would be that yes, that is the reason.

Other times when I have been the first to say it to a dominant, it wasn't easy for me to say. I really don't like letting someone know how much control, power, they have over me. Those times, I said it because I was listening to my heart and knew I just had to say it. After saying it though, I always feel more vulnerable, open to abuse, and it took a lot of trust in the partner to know that they would not use my feelings against me.

I might be rambling a bit.. but those are what limited experiences I can add to this.

[orangeblossoms]

Gosh I must be perverted, because when I first read the title, I thought you meant lesbian instead of love...get my mind out of the gutter.

I think saying it is a wonderful thing. Take if out of the D/s context for a minute, its such a powerful phrase. I was just like you, scared that if I said it I would push the most wonderful man I know away, but on the contrary, has made our relationship so much stronger, and brought us closer together, it was the best decision I have ever made, and you know what, the D/s is now so much more intense because we have that unbelivable connection. I couldn't be happier, and hopefully it will be the same for you.

[alpha_Straye]

Maybe I am just a hard-arse but I have always seen D/s and love as two entirely separate forces of Nature. In other words, it is no secret that I love my alpha more than life and have soaked up too many of her tears to doubt that she loves me no less in return. But love is not the basis of our relationship. The promises that bind us were made long before we became lovers and will be kept even were we to end up hating each other.

i agree.. soooo much. it's the fact that We are not based on love that makes Us solid. like a very old fashioned marriage in a way- once the commitment is made, it's made and that's it... and if people fall out of love that's unfortunate but changes nothing. except, in enslavement to Owner, it doesnt start with Love either. It may come, it may not, it may come and then go, but the commitment is there and seperate, unmoved. the commitment to be His slave came first and far from making it dry or something it ...it makes it safe. flights of fancy dont come along and wreck the arrangement, only the side perks. love or lack of love doesnt make the commitment and doesnt break it either. and He's had plenty of slaves that He enjoyed and kept well without being in love with them one little bit. (and a couple charity cases that werent so enjoyable but He took pity and let them stay for their own good).

but if one gets the bonus and love comes along with other things.. well, no one's keeping score. it doesnt matter who says it first. my Owner thinks He said it first but to be honest im not sure. i was too upset to know how things really went. i think it happened when i wasnt home for a few weeks or something and We were arguing long distance and i'd thought He'd just walked off. id thought He was so angry He was leaving me and had just dropped me right then and there, turned off the computer and that was it. i didnt understand back then that He really meant all the things He'd been saying, that He might have been angry but He wouldnt do something like that. it didnt make me not His slave just because We were angry.

thinking He was leaving me was a big bucket of water on my temper so when i called Him i was... calm on the surface, trying hard to find a way to be reasonable and not cry, wanting to find some way to work things out. when i found out it was just the crap internet connection and not Him leaving me.. im not even sure what happened except that the dam burst and i cried an awful lot and somewhere in the middle We admitted that We loved each other. i was pretty much insensible with relief going the full spectrum from thinking He was gone from me to finding out that not only had i not lost Him but He loved me..... and all the things He'd said were true that He wasnt going to leave me for being mad at me or even for hating me (which He didnt). His affections for me weren't the basis of Our relationship so i was safe, even though He was angry.

thats not exactly the way i would have planned telling Him i loved Him.. but it didnt matter. its... its sort of nicer that it happened however it did. it was just natural, unfolding however it does in a unique chapter of Our life together. it was just Us. and a moment cant be planned. the real ones just happen.

so dont worry i guess is all im saying *smile*. i think it will take care of itself. for me it just burst out sometime in all the flurry and i couldnt hide it anymore. i think id been holding off saying it because i didnt want to admit it, didnt want to risk being wrong, admitting to myself that i'd found my One for life and therefore risking that i might lose Him, might be left, might be fooled... and then i said it anyways and i knew without a doubt that it was true and i was right. i dont remember what We said but i remember His voice and the warmth, the touch of it somehow, a deeper connection being made.. i think We both just gave up pretending it wasnt so *smile*

but i didnt really have to do anything or plan anything. things took care of themselves and it all came out right, as it should be.

[His_little one]

i think id been holding off saying it because i didnt want to admit it, didnt want to risk being wrong, admitting to myself that i'd found my One for life and therefore risking that i might lose Him, might be left, might be fooled... and then i said it anyways and i knew without a doubt that it was true and i was right..

You put that very well -- that's exactly the first half of the battle I had with myself. I still remember the exact moment I realized I loved him and it scared me half to death. I have pretty thick walls and to realize I was completely vulnerable to this person heart, body, and mind was terrifying. It took me about a week to admit it to myself and accept it before I was ready to tell him, and then it was like a switch flipped, it was ready to burst out of me but I had to find the perfect time, mood, and place -- why ? I don't know. I finally ended up saying it but only because I couldn't not anymore and I was sick of trying to analyze and wait for the perfect situation (which it definitely wasn't) We had just played, I was laying on top of him, he was still inside me and I finally just blurted it out. It took a few seconds (or what seemed like minutes) and I got the smile, "and i love you" as he wrapped his arms around me tightly. With all that was going on at that moment it was probably a bit unfair to say it for the first time but the agonizing was over and I believed him when he said it back. It's been a few weeks and while we don't say it every time we talk, it's been said every time we've seen each other and most importantly I feel immensely in the way he looks at me and touches me.