Approval of others, do you defend your lifestyle?

[Naomisagoodgirl]

My dad made a comment today about "those sick s&m people." It's the first time he's ever said anything disparaging about BDSM, and honestly, while I assumed he didn't want to know the details of my sex life, I always assumed he respected people's rights to different lifestyles. He's generally very open and understanding. I almost defended "those sick s&m" people, but then I didn't. I don't want to give away the details of my relationship, because I know he doesn't want to hear it. At the same time, I don't want to let the comment slide, because he's a psychologist, and his opinion on this will have an effect on his clients.

Has anyone had a similar experience? Any advice on what I should say or do?

Thanks!

[~faerie~]

i wish i could tell you hun...but my parents freaked when i lived with a guy without being married..lol..i could not even begin to imagine what they would say about my choice in lifestlye. *shuddering at the thought*

[flying66]

aw man! a psychologist and he made a comment like that? personally I'd probably look up scientific articles on the subject to show them to him but like, discreetly... maybe a 'I thought about your outburst the other day and I thought a psychologist wouldn't have been so close minded without a reason..." or something like that. wiki has good articles ^_^ I hope everything works out for you because this is probably really infuriating for you inside!

[Alex Bragi]

Well, sure we live in a world where there are still many prejudices against certain forms of sexual expression, but I'm rather surprised that your father, as an educated man and a psychologist, would think that BDSM is a mental illness.

I, too, assume that my dad doesn't want to know the details of my sex life either, regardless of my sexual leanings or practices and that suits me just fine because I most certainly don't want to know about his! I mean, my dad rolling around ... Oh no ...*shudders* it's just to gross to think about..*gg*

And I think it's unlikely to have an effect on his clients but it's may certainly have an effect on his clientele.

Hey, does your dear o' dad also think that maturbation will make you go blind?

[Tufty]

Oh dear! A Psychologist amking a comment like that? I'm surprised!

Seriously, though, there are a lot of things that people do in their lives that I maybe don't like or don't agree with - but I will always respect their right to lead their lives as they wish. And just as they have a right to their lifestyles, I also have a right to mine.

Does it really matter to anybody else what consenting adults get up to? They're consenting, they're old enough to know what they're doing and, more importantly, they're not harming anybody else. It's a shame that many folks out there in 'Vanilla Land' think that BDSM is just about being tied up and flogged.

I'm not what you would call a 'lifestyle' player in the BDSM game (is that the right word?), but most of my friends know what I like. I've always been open about things, often making them into a joke, so many people don't even have an idea that it really is my 'thing'. As I've been telling them for years, "I may be a perv, but I'm a harmless perv!"

Don't ever forget that it's your life and you have a right to live it as you wish. People may have advice for you. Listen to the advice, but always make up your own mind.

It's just my own opinion on the subject...

[gagged_Louise]

Oww! Tough one, I really don't think you can bring it up in an easy way without more or less giving away your own bdsm leanings - he'd feel suspicion or jump to it if you tried to argue your case with some force. YUnless the opportunity really falls into your lap or he says something similar again, I'd say leave it, sorry.
It does aggravate it that he's a psychologist, but some psychologist do have this heavily biased opinion of the s&m thing - Sheldon Bach for instance (a clinical professor of psychology at New York University and supervising analyst at the New York Freudian Society) asserted that S&M is an addiction where people will feel a compulsive need to be "anally abused or crawl on their knees and lick a boot or a penis or who knows what else. The problem," he continues, "is that they can't love. They are searching for love, and S & M is the only way they can try to find it because they are locked into sadomasochistic interactions they had with a parent" That's as stubbornly put as the religious convictions of a Fundamentalist Christian, and highly insulting to boot.

I know this is a hard choice, but if you bring the matter up without feeling that it comes unforced, you may both end up feeling very uncomfortable, you feeling that you've let down your guard and exposed your sex life to your dad and he just won't understand any of it. Which would leave a permanet scar, maybe a feeling too that this is always hanging between you: is she/is she not/does he...?

Just like Alex I don't think his ideas will make a big difference to his clients in the long run. In any talk relation/treatment with a psychologist it would take a long time before opening up about your s&m leanings and most people, even if they are feeling at a low ebb, will recognize blatant uninformed preconceptions and simple bashings about their lifestyle when they hear it.

[Scorpio'sWill2Power]

What to say or do?

With a situation such as this, you're going to
have to be the one to make that call and
ask yourself what's more important to you
on a personal level.

Expressing your true feelings and views held
on this thing called the BDSM lifestyle or simply
preserving your own right to privacy and keeping
your opinions to yourself.

I have no idea how long you've been in the
BDSM lifestyle but if this gives you reason to take
pause than as the saying goes, "you aint' seen nothing
yet."

Hell, I've been doing my own thing as far as the
terminology goes within this personal life choice and
I've yet to understand most of what takes place when
it comes to "people" in general.

In my view, it's too often like BDSM being this massive
river and you have these campers pitching tents on
all sides of it. Everyone has come there to drink but
far too often this river that has drawn them together
for a common purpose (to slake their thirst) has in
essence separated them all the further.

Why do I say this?
I'm glad you asked. LOL

You speak to some folks and they will say that
their way is how things should be done, if you don't
do this or subscribe to their train of thought, you're
simply doing it all wrong.

Now I don't say this is the case with all individuals so
don't everyone get your clamps and whips in a tangle.

From what I've seen over many years within this great
journey we partake of, we too damn often can't find
some happy medium and let everyone do their own thing
without casting down feelings of even further isolation
that some grapple with on a regular basis.

It's pretty plain and simple a sad thing indeed!!!

Over time when faced with situations like this I
preach about tolerance for others and maybe taking
a step back to set ego and emotion aside and give
a bit of understanding when it can do the most good
for those who seek it most.

There you go, pretty much all there is to it but
as Sisyphus was condemed to keeping rolling that
rock uphill; we probably won't ever truly eliminate
or resolve issues such as this as long as we deal
with the human element and all the baggage that
comes along with it.

Do your own thing, hold you head up high, no fear,
no shame in embracing what works for you.
The only other advice being, remember how you felt
when faced with something like this and work toward
making others feel less that way.

[annie]

My husband and I are currently in marriage counseling. Of course my BDSM interests came up and the counselor clearly stated that my interest in that is considered a "mental disease" and even stated what the clinical term for it was. I can't remember the clinical term at the moment but will search later and see if I can find it. (Love you guys but would REALLY rather not ask the counselor again and bring THAT entire discussion back up... )

So... not sure how to approach Dear Old Dad... but it is, from my understanding, taught as a mental illness. Which I find is truly ironic since most who go to counseling are there to "find themselves" or "better themselves" and how is that possible if you are being told that what you feel is wrong for whatever societal contrived reason.

[Polaris]

It depends on the therapist, I presume. I'm at number four or five by now, and she is pretty damn great. When the whole BDSM came up it wasn't a big deal and she didn't treat it as such. She said that as long as I was happy with it I shouldn't worry too much about it -- but she also asked me to have a closer look at some of my issues that can be easily compensated and are actually wished for in BDSM...anyway, I don't want to bore you with the deep, dark abyss that is my soul, the point I'm trying to make is: What we do is outside the norms and outside the conventions of the society we live in. What is normal is usually considered as sane and healthy, although I think one could argue that point. Does that make those BDSM people sick? I don't think so. But I also think that such a statement is easily and thoughtlessly made, too.

We all have needs. Some needs are more common, others are more complex. Personally I don't worry too much about what is sane and what is not -- as long as it works for everyone involved I see no problem with it. I'm sorry...I didn't want to go on a tangent, but oops

I think you're definitely on the safe side when you say something like "Everybody should be able to choose their lifestyle, and they shouldn't be discriminated for it". I know sure as hell I wouldn't want to tell my dad about my sex-life, and frankly I don't think that it concerns anybody but me and my respective partner. But if you're bothered by his comment, I'd tell him and make it a more general call for tolerance.

I don't know if it helps any, but I was in a similar situation a while ago. It wasn't these sick s&m people but "those fetishists" and not uttered by my dad, but by an acquaintance of mine. I smiled and said, "Well, I don't think it's that bad...I have a fetish or two of my own. Don't you?" Funny thing with sex is that all people -- vanilla or not -- apparently want to come across as adventurous. And hell, we all have our fetishes...but I digress again. Thing is that when you treat it is normal, people around you usually will do the same -- that's my philosophy at least.

Anyway, just my two cents! Hope you can filter out something useful from my ramblings

[gagged_Louise]

My husband and I are currently in marriage counseling. Of course my BDSM interests came up and the counselor clearly stated that my interest in that is considered a "mental disease" and even stated what the clinical term for it was. I can't remember the clinical term at the moment but will search later...

Maybe "algolagnia", is that it? It's a hoary old term dating back to old man Krafft-Ebing I think, meaning, literally "love of pain" and it covers both sadism and masochism

Hope your family life works out, Annie, and that you'll find the strength to do what feels right. I certainly wouldn't want to tell a marriage counselor (or a lawyer) about my masochist side.

[annie]

Maybe "algolagnia", is that it? It's a hoary old term dating back to old man Krafft-Ebing I think, meaning, literally "love of pain" and it covers both sadism and masochism

That isn't the term he used. I actually can't find it. (Or remember it well enough to find it may be the issue at hand!)

The only thing I have found so far is this, for what it's worth.

[gagged_Louise]

Thanks for the link - and yay for frotteurism (the textbook case is "he touched my dick in an indecent way in the sports hall shower..")

In Krafft-Ebings old book on Sexual psychopathology (kind of the Old Testament of sex medical research, way before the Kinsey report) most of the descriptions and names of acts are in Latin, to restrict the readership to doctors...

[Euryleia]

I'm coming at this from a slightly different angle. Growing up, I heard all the bigotted comments about gays and lesbians (my Dad is career military). When I recognized my sexual orientation, I felt compelled to come out to my family. I did this to stop the comments and to educate them that, yes they do know a lesbian.

As I further learned what makes me tick sexually, I was again faced with their comments (why is it the that the only float that makes the news from the Gay Pride Parades is the S&M one?). I again felt that, for my own self respect, that I had to defend my desires.

Building on what Polaris said in an earlier post, people make the disparaging comments about things when they don't know any better. Your father may feel free to speak as he does, because the only BDSM people he's seen have been patients or case studies. That's a limited pool to infer knowledge from. Making him aware of someone who is a well integrated person and involved in the community will be to his benefit. There is the famous phrase by Ernest van den Haag, a psychotherapist: "I am reminded of a colleague who reiterated "all my homosexual patients are quite sick" - to which I finally replied "so are all my heterosexual patients.""

Despite how much help to him and his patients it might be, your coming out as a submissive (or Dominant or masochist, etc) is a strictly personal decision. You've got to weigh all the potential consequences against the benefits. I wish you all the best in whatever you decide.

[TheVariableX]

Damn coming out more than once would, put blunty, suck.

[Stone]

Well I would simply remind him that most sick people are not into the bdsm comminity I would dare say that most of the real sickos re not

[wingsofanangel]

Just a side point.

I've always heard people have fetishes OR bdsm related desires b/c of abuse.

That its the brains way of coping.. turning something negative into something enjoyable..

If it helps a person get by and function.. then why is it wrong? Why does a person have to face something so painful in the eye and deal head on with something that could be left hidden in the back of their mind?

-shrug-

[thrall]

Just a side point.

I've always heard people have fetishes OR bdsm related desires b/c of abuse.

That its the brains way of coping.. turning something negative into something enjoyable..

If it helps a person get by and function.. then why is it wrong? Why does a person have to face something so painful in the eye and deal head on with something that could be left hidden in the back of their mind?

-shrug-

Wings honey.........no.......our desires for kink do not always come from abuse......a good deal of us......just like it.......lol

and yes.....i have plenty of those places hiding in my mind, but that is not why i love this lifestyle. Im not saying that it is not a coping method either, if that is what is working for someone then great......i just wanted to say that many of us just love what and who we are....we are not a product of abuse.....Hugs

[newby]

I've always heard people have fetishes OR bdsm related desires b/c of abuse.

Is that true or just what "they" say? i havent been involved in the community long enough to know. Personally, i couldnt have had a more "normal" childhood...loving family, went to church, good grades, the whole bit...absolutely no abuse whatsoever. But i do like the kink!!

[Isabelle90]

Okay, so people in this lifestyle form a community of support. It's because of this sweeping generalization that we're stamped with based on the select few that give us a "bad name." Before people begin pointing the finger at just who among us is truly sick, perhaps they should questions the sorts of sexual activities they themselves enjoy and/or fantasize about. If they are truthful with themselves, this would be a non-issue.

[annie]

Newby...

If you look at different psychology sources, a large percentage do claim that interest in this lifestyle is due to abuse. Personally I don't think abuse has anything to do with my decision to enjoy a D/s relationship. I have heard it all... "you want a father figure since you were raised by only a mom," "there was sexual abuse in your family and this is your way of coping," etc. Actually, the sexual abuse never really happened to me (thank you, Mom!) and I am a stronger person and feel I am better able to submit because of the hidden strength my mom always had to have as a single parent. That fact also helped me to take the steps to move forward in learning about D/s, etc. and not just keep it tucked away as a "forbidden" item and keeping myself miserable.

So... long winded way of saying... that is what "they" believe... but what they "believe", what they "know" and what is "reality" (my reality) are completely different things!

[wingsofanangel]

Wings honey.........no.......our desires for kink do not always come from abuse......a good deal of us......just like it.......lol

and yes.....i have plenty of those places hiding in my mind, but that is not why i love this lifestyle. Im not saying that it is not a coping method either, if that is what is working for someone then great......i just wanted to say that many of us just love what and who we are....we are not a product of abuse.....Hugs

Oh I know that for sure. I was just saying thats what people try to say lots of times. and even if it were true... whats so wrong with it? yanno?

[Logic1]

I understand wings

really strange but I have had to defend this lifestyle a few times to my friends and another person and most of them just find me more interesting afterwards lol.
I think I managed to change their minds to be more open to other views on things and how they do things.
Although now for some reason I seem to be the person those people comes to when they have sex questions or wish to spice up things..... cant say that is what I wanted out of it.. but I can cope

[TheVariableX]

I was abused by an uncle when I was younger. How terribly cliché.

What angers me most about it is not knowing if I enjoy this lifestyle by choice, or is it really simply because of that abuse. Were I to tell my family about my interests I have to assume they would blame it all on the abuse and just hate themselves more for allowing it to happen.

[wingsofanangel]

Sweetie. I don't think it matters. If this is something you enjoy. And you are able to do it without those memories creeping up and hurting you.. then do it.

Over analyzing will prob. just bring about stress and confusion.

You are not hurting anyone by indulging in what you want. If it works for you. so be it.

[good_girl]

Keep in mind, not all that long ago homosexuality was considered a mental illness, psychologists would try to "treat" it. Today this is becoming more and more acceptable, so to will BDSM I'm sure.

[Stone]

yeah they might claim its from abuse i was never abused so why am i a sadist? HMMMmm cause i fucking like it,and besides with the modren day psychobabble they claim everything is abuse you were loved too much not enough ect talking about my problems will not solve them now hmmm facing them and taking action will

[His_blizzard]

I had spanking fantasies with Capt. Kirk when I was 11 and I was never abused sexually or otherwise, but I so enjoy BDSM.
I was rather lazy and was pretty much left alone and never had too many chores ( I was the 3rd girl...lol) but I live to serve my Master.
As Popeye said " I yam what I yam". For whatever reason we are all here, the bottom line can be paraphrased from another very old TV show," Y" ?because I LIKE IT"! Nuff said. ~blizz~

[TheVariableX]

Popeye was truly one of the great minds of the 20th century.

Captain Kirk had his moments too

[Guest 91108]

I was not abused in a manner which caused to to like BDSM.
I like the look of a bound woman. I like to hear her moans as her pleasure rises. I like her whimpers of submission mixed with pleasure.
I like to see how strong she is when she shows me what she can take ...
<weg>
So many reasons to like BDSM.

[jeanne]

I was not abused in a manner which caused to to like BDSM.
I like the look of a bound woman. I like to hear her moans as her pleasure rises. I like her whimpers of submission mixed with pleasure.
I like to see how strong she is when she shows me what she can take ...
<weg>
So many reasons to like BDSM.

I was not abused at all as a child or as an adult.
I like the feeling of being bound. And I love the feeling of submitting - the loss of ego for myself.
And as I take more as he pleases, I feel both extremely vulnerable and strong. And proud to be his so completely at that moment. Let's not forget proud.
Yes, lots of reasons to like it.

And I don't defend my choice in this to others, because I don't talk about it with anyone outside the lifestyle. And my everyday friends are sooooo vanilla, BDSM never comes up in our conversations anyway. They can barely talk about sex or their relationships in general, except to piss and moan about their husbands. It's sad, actually.