Approval of others, do you defend your lifestyle?

[Naomisagoodgirl]

Thank you all for the thoughtful responses. It's amazing how well thought out everyone's opinions on this forum are.

I feel better about my decision to let the comment slide. Like some people said, I don't want to enter the uncomfortable territory of oversharing with my dad. Also, while I'm imagining a scenario where some BDSMer with horrible self esteem confides his/her desires to my dad and is met with a horrible reaction, that scenario is unlikely to happen, and even if it does it is unlikely my dad will be the last therapist that poor person sees.

If he mentions it again, though, I think I will take the advice I've read here and say something general in defense of alternate lifestyles. If he argues with me it will give me an opening to send him some information, something we do a lot post argument, without raising too many alarms.

[TomStraye]

Questions! Why think that you need to defend what you are? Would your parents even dream of justifying the fact that (one assumes) your father does NOT keep your mother naked and in chains and whip her to orgasm every weekend? Probably not!

Would you even contemplate persuading your father to start stripping & whipping your mother? I very much doubt it because we both know you’d be wasting your time. How they are is just how they are and that’s that!

The point is, they don’t defend their way of life because they don’t feel they do anything that needs defending. You just need to get your head in the same place about your own lifestyle.

Once you start trying to defend who and what you are, people assume you have doubts and, if they disapprove of what you do, they will go for it in the belief that, if they pile on enough pressure, your doubts will grow and you’ll change and become what they want you to be.

Give them no hope whatsoever, on the other hand and … Well, it may take a while but I have noticed that objectors tend to become acceptors eventually, once they realise they don’t have a hope in hell of winning!

Just be yourself, in other words! I’m not saying go rub their noses in it because then they’ll assume your lifestyle to be some sort of childish rebellion. I am merely suggesting that you simply living your life how you want to live it with quiet confidence is a far more potent weapon against bigotry than arguing.

You just can’t argue people out of beliefs they were never argued into. They just carry on believing the truth to be what they want it to be — or, in this case, more likely what some scandal-sheet newspaper has decided is the ‘sick truth about S&M’ just so that can up their circulation with a little kinky soft-porn without upsetting the puritans. (Trust me on that last part. I’m an ex-journalist!)

An example? Before my alpha got shipped back to the US, I also had a beta and, this being South London, our social life as a family centred around our local pub.

Picture the scene! Grubby, working-class boozer packed with labourers and local villains? Long-haired arty-type enters with two women in tow; both decades younger than me and both with slave-collars padlocked around their pretty necks? Mutterings of “sick bastard” and “probably Satanists here for the churchyard”?

Eventually, somebody asked me to my face. I just laughed and said: “No, we’re not Satanists! They’re my two slaves. We’re just having a few beers on our way back from the supermarket.”

And that was that. I turned from “sick bastard” to “lucky bastard” and we were accepted as just another part of the community. All because I and mine just carried on being Us as if it was the most normal thing in the world — which, of course, for us, it was!

I am also a parent, by the way, so I can see this from their side.

[alpha_Straye]

Picture the scene! Grubby, working-class boozer packed with labourers and local villains? Long-haired arty-type enters with two women in tow; both decades younger than me and both with slave-collars padlocked around their pretty necks? Mutterings of “sick bastard” and “probably Satanists here for the churchyard”?

Eventually, somebody asked me to my face. I just laughed and said: “No, we’re not Satanists! They’re my two slaves. We’re just having a few beers on our way back from the supermarket.”

And that was that. I turned from “sick bastard” to “lucky bastard” and we were accepted as just another part of the community. All because I and mine just carried on being Us as if it was the most normal thing in the world — which, of course, for us, it was!

ohhh i'd forgotten about the satanists theory !*L* ohhh that was funny *grin*. You were supposed to be Our high priest i think were'nt You?*L*.. their little imaginations were running wild.. the details they came up with...

i like the wild speculations about Your penis too. i've heard them talking amongst themselves- apparently they think You must tuck it in Your sock *LOL*. talk about imagination *L**wink**kiss*

really though, He's right, it did work pretty well. We did keep on getting the odd comment , especially when someone new came along who wasnt used to Us but after a while We just became part of the local scenery.

uh.. i think that might have drifted off the point a little but somethings up with the power here so im shutting down.. bye *smile*

[alpha_Straye]

My dad made a comment today about "those sick s&m people." It's the first time he's ever said anything disparaging about BDSM, and honestly, while I assumed he didn't want to know the details of my sex life, I always assumed he respected people's rights to different lifestyles. He's generally very open and understanding. I almost defended "those sick s&m" people, but then I didn't. I don't want to give away the details of my relationship, because I know he doesn't want to hear it. At the same time, I don't want to let the comment slide, because he's a psychologist, and his opinion on this will have an effect on his clients.

Has anyone had a similar experience? Any advice on what I should say or do?

Thanks!

anyways, as i was saying before the electricity so rudely interupted *smile*...

i have been in conversation with people who have said similar things to me or around me, although in ignorance of my state as a slave. i believe i simply innocently asked questions.. like "oh? why are they sick?". it seemed like another person not automatically being in agreement took them back and made them think...and mostly they havent had an answer. well, beyond "well... you know...".. to which i replied.."ohh?" expectantly. it seems like they always shut up, though that wasnt really my intention. i was rather hoping they'd answer... both out of curiosity to know their reasoning and also to get to the root of it and maybe help them understand. i dont usually directly out myself to people without reason as im not into being persecuted but instead i just discuss it as a knowledgeable person who supports other people's rights to enjoy what they like with other consenting adults who want the same thing. which is perfectly true- i do feel that way and not just about stuff im into. my own lifestyle choices are none of their concern unless i choose to share it with them (unless Owner's around so i can rely on His wishes instead of my own judgement).

in general i dont worry about what other people think of my chossen life. first, it was my life to give in service to my Owner and i made that choice freely with no pressure. second, my enslavement to my Owner has been so healthy for me that i cant imagine anyone who truely understood and wished me well could disaprove in fairness. if they disaprove it seems to me to be a direct result of misunderstanding/lack of knowledge/ and/or prejudice... and their prejudices and lack of understanding arent my problem *shrugsmile*. if they ask to be instructed i'll do my best to help but otherwise... well it's just not anything to worry about that i can see.

though it would be harder to take from someone i loved and looked up to and i feel for you on that ....

[Arria]

I think Tufty put it very nicely when he said: "Does it really matter to anybody else what consenting adults get up to? They're consenting, they're old enough to know what they're doing and, more importantly, they're not harming anybody else. It's a shame that many folks out there in 'Vanilla Land' think that BDSM is just about being tied up and flogged."

As for myself:
The friends I am really close to were already with me before I discovered my likings. So for them, I as a person am important, not what I do in bed. They don´t ask me for many personal details - but if they want to know more about the lifestyle, they come to me with their questions *lol*

My mother first freaked out when I told her about my likings (in a general way; mainly implying I am into pain). Her main issue was "what did I do wrong with you that you developed such a taste". It took me ages to assure her she did nothing "wrong", and that from my point of view it has to do nothing at all with her.
When I first got together with my husband, she also freaked, for 2 reasons: 1. She did not like the fact that somebody hurts me / was not sure in which way this differs from genuine abuse.
2. She was very scared he would do permanent damage to me, as she says I do have more than enough scars already (I have to admit she does have a point there).
Well, we have been together for 9 years now, and now she is comfortable with it (knowing that I am not really the sort of person who would put up with abuse for long; and seeing that he did not maim me so far *rotfl*).

As for work: It is known that I am into the lifestyle, but as I also make very clear I am not interested in any man except my husband, it is not really a big thing. While I refuse to go into much detail about myself, I did already point some colleagues to good reference sites on the Internet when they asked me questions. *laughs*

Moreover, it might have helped that the lifestyle has been pulled through all Media here, so it became kind of trendy *yuck*. Ahem. :-)

Basically, I keep my nose out of other people´s bedroom, and expect the same in return.
__________________________________

... So, and now I read the whole thread thoroughly, and must admit that the message I was trying to get across was already perfectly stated by Tom Straye and alpha...

[TomStraye]

Basically, I keep my nose out of other people´s bedroom, and expect the same in return.

I couldn’t agree more, Arria. If only the rest of humanity was as sensible. Sadly, most of it seems to have redefined the word ‘freedom’ to mean the freedom to be just like everybody else — or else!

It’s hard to believe now but, when I first started in the life, here in England, I risked imprisonment for doing what I do for submissives. Moreover, the fact that I acted with their consent only made matters worse because, by consenting, they were deemed to be my accomplices and risked being prosecuted themselves!

Insane? Yep! But it gets worse. At that time, while my caning an adult female with her consent made me a criminal, it was perfectly legal for an adult teacher to cane the crap out of unwilling little boys & girls.

My point is, prejudices have nothing to do with logic. For the most part, they seem to be based on some sort of herd instinct, twisted by ignorance and fear.

That’s why I won’t defend my lifestyle. I will not be ruled by cattle. If they want the truth, however, I am happy to give it and, in my experience, once they see that there is no threat, the problem evaporates!

PS: I only just saw your last comment *blush*. Thank you, Arria. You do me too much honour. I would have shut up if I'd seen it sooner but as I've already typed this ...

PPS:I also just noticed that my alpha got in first. *L* Damn International Time Zones! One thing she forgot to mention, however, is that giving people the truth can have surprising results. puddle used to be alpha's church-going, vanilla housemate, you see. she asked. I explained and now look at her!

[STONE'sSLUT]

Hello, All.

Wonderful discussion. I think, though, that those unfamiliar with the lifestyle having less-than-sparkling views on BDSM are getting a bad rap. Educated, forward thinking, liberal minded folks & ignorant, old-fashioned, conservative people alike can only base their opinions on what limited information they have experienced. It’s how the human brain works - we have a cognitive framework that allows us to organize, say, people into certain spots in our memory so that we will know how to react to them one we meet up with them again. So, if the only information they have ever heard about BDSM involves serial killers, child-murderers, underground sex-slavery, misogyny, abuse, & (non-consensual) torture, then they are bound to have a certain distaste. I would call those people “sick” myself.

The difference, however, is that I know that not ALL lifestylers are like that…I have experiences with & knowledge of a community made up of all types of people. As of yet, I haven’t seen any positive portrayals of BDSM outside of our own very closed off community. If you watch any widely publicized story, show, article, etc. involving any kind of BDSM, it’s depicted as something dark, sinister, deviant, & dangerous. Part of this, IMO, is because the media is all about selling the story. Sensationalism is the order of the day. (Come on - if they depicted a typical lifestyler’s days, it would be intolerably boring - & WOULD NOT SELL!) The other part - when looking at people who we (as a society) fear - killers, rapists, etc. - we will inherently look for something the “explains” why they are the way they are….Put these two factors together & you have those ignorant of what BDSM really means believing that someone’s interest in the lifestyle is the root of their evil actions. Thus, “those sick S&M people.”

I can’t blame them. & I am no more surprised at a psychologist believing this than a “lowly” working-class laborer...Whether or not some view you as more open-minded based on how many degrees you hold or how you earn your paycheck, it’s more equitable to realize that your socio-economic class or level of education will not prohibit you from holding prejudices based on what you have experienced. We’re all human with brains that work the same way…our cognitive frameworks will only change in response to new knowledge and encounters. That being said, on to the family issue…

I was deathly afraid of how they would react. They are all highly educated & intelligent, fairly traditional & relatively conservative, working-class & proud. We are an exceedingly close family (even when it comes to our sex lives), but I was afraid they may not accept what we were choosing. Not sharing somewhat about our lifestyle did not seem an option…especially since we are all building houses within shouting distance on a ranch. So, we had to tell my brother & sister (in-law) - that went smoothly. They may have been a bit surprised, but that soon gave way to open curiosity & hilariously entertaining chats about new things they might try. Sitting down with my mom to explain what was happening (we live 60 feet from them, so it’s not like she wouldn’t become aware) was a little more difficult. She was surprised that what she believed to be our views about feminism would jive with what she perceived would be a D/s lifestyle. After careful clarification on both of those things & assurances on safety measures, she is accepting & supportive. My father has simply added comments about spanking, etc. to his good-natured teasing. We never go into intricate details about what goes on in our respective bedrooms, but addressing some of the open changes in our relationship as we went D/s 24/7, along with a little bit of clarification on what BDSM is (for us, at least), gave them a different perspective on the lifestyle. They know we are successful, happy individuals who are in a loving relationship. This gave them a different experience of what a BDSMer looks like, so they don’t have to associate the lifestyle with heinous crimes or evil people. I guess we can only hope that more people will have the opportunity to become aware of more positive examples of BDSM…

As to the abuse perspective, I don’t buy it. Despite the high correlation of BDSMers also having been abuse victims, numbers show that just as many victims are NOT interested in the lifestyle. Abuse is unfortunately very common, but I don’t think it’s an “excuse” for being into BDSM. I was molested as a child by a neighbor girl for years, raped as a teen, & had a boyfriend force sex without respect to my reluctance, but I am very clear that this is not the “cause” of my kinks. I was having masochistic fantasies at a very young age - long before I understood what they meant & even before any abuse had occurred. I always volunteered to be the “captive” when playing cops & robbers - insisting on accuracy, so I HAD to be tied up & tormented. Without knowing what it was all about, I used to masturbate to the idea of being taken, enslaved & humiliated - all before age 10. As I got older, becoming more aware of sex in general, my fantasies became more sexualized & I, obviously, eventually made the connection between my childhood sex-play an my adult needs. The abuse I’ve suffered has nothing to do with my predilections. Reading through this thread & others on the topic, I guess I’m one of the fortunate ones…I no longer need an excuse or explanation for what I am & I don’t need the approval of others. It took me a while to get there, though, so I wish those who are struggling with it the best of luck. It’s a rough path, but very worth doing.

Be Well
SS

[Naomisagoodgirl]

SS,

Thank you so much for sharing your thoughts. Before I read your post I really didn't understand where my dad was coming from. Now I see it is probably more than blind, visceral reaction. Given your analysis of how negative opinions of BDSM are formed, it seems all the more important to "come out" to family and friends, so they know that they know and love perfectly well adjusted BDSMers.

It was also encouraging to hear how well your family reacted. I can imagine my family reacting that way, now. Of course, I can imagine other, less pleasant reactions, too.

[STONE'sSLUT]

Naomisagoodgirl -

You’re very welcome. I don’t post much these days, but I felt compelled here. I think you’ve started an excellent discussion that many can relate to, so thank you! Yeah - I think your dad has probably had much the typical experience with images of BDSM, more than likely compounded by encountering a huge number of people who are seeking or believe lifestylers should seek “help” for their “abnormal” desires. I certainly don’t think that everyone should bust out with their most intimate predilections at the Thanksgiving table, LOL. But, speaking for myself here, I can’t imagine trying to conceal that big a part of my life from close loved ones forever. There’s always the possibility that family & friends may react badly, but I think (as many have mentioned before me) that much of that comes from misconceptions about what BDSM is & concern for our safety. I think a lot is dependant on approach, too. I spoke with my mom in a calm, serious, & private way - knowing full well she would tell my dad & he would speak with me if he needed to. I told my bro & sis together when we were all joking, teasing, & fooling around. I specifically didn’t want things to be confrontational or to come off accusatory or “in your face,” & I really wanted them all to feel comfortable asking questions & expressing concerns. Others have made some good suggestions & I’m sure you’ll get more great responses, but YOU know your dad…I’m sure you’ll know when it’s right & when you’re ready. I wish you lots of luck & would love to hear an update if/when you share.

Be Well
SS