Do you believe in miracles?

[Midnite]

Simply put do you believe that God still performs miracles today?

[blythe spirit]

I do believe in miracles and see them unfold each and every day.

[Thorne]

Because I tend towards the scientific view of things, I cannot believe in miracles. Claiming something is a miracle is only a way of saying we don't understand it. In five or ten or a hundred years, when we do understand it, the miraculous becomes commonplace.

[ThisYouWillDo]

I believe that if God performs miracles, He is influencing events in favour of some individual or another, and that is unfair on everyone else. If, for example, He raises someone from the dead, why not raise everyone? If He cures my cancer, why not everyone else's?

But then, if God allows the world to exist with 5% of its population controlling 95% of its wealth, where the wealthy can buy good health while the poor die in wretched conditions ... Oh! He does ...

God works in mysterious ways: too bloody right!

I prefer not to believe in him, otherwise, I'd have to despise him. And, of course, that means no miracles.

TYWD

[blythe spirit]

Perhaps I'm looking at it on a more metaphysical level. We make our own miracles and we've been given the power to do so.

[ThisYouWillDo]

We say a new-born baby is a miracle, and it is. To watch a new life happen is a heart-warming experience, and to know that you, as a parent, created that life is, as we used to say, "mind blowing". That inexplicable new spark of existence a miracle.

The fact that the universe exists at all, and is capable of supporting any life form is a miracle. Repeated many times over on just one planet.

Those are miracles I do believe in. I can believe in them without having to attribute them to a higher power, other than Nature herself.

TYWD

[Thorne]

The fact that the universe exists at all, and is capable of supporting any life form is a miracle. Repeated many times over on just one planet.

And maybe not just one. Scientists are finding increasing evidence of the possibility of life on other planets. They apparently found meteorites in Antarctica which have been shown to have come from Mars, and which seemed to contain bacterial fossils. I believe they've also seen video evidence from one or both rovers on Mars of erosion patterns which are consistent with biological wearing, such as from lichen growing on rocks.

The probability that Earth is the only habitat of life in the universe is so negligibly small as to be virtually impossible. Given the millions of stars in our galaxy and the thousands upon thousands of galaxies which we can see, it is almost a foregone conclusion that life of some sort exists elsewhere. And the lessons we are learning even here on Earth about extremophiles makes it that much more likely that life, and perhaps intelligent life as well, can occur almost anywhere. No miracles required.

[blythe spirit]

It would be presumptuous of us to think that we are the only intelligent life force in this massive universe. Not only is highly likely that other beings exist, but - no doubt - they probably surpass us in all areas, including intelligence. However, that does not negate the possibility of miracles.

[Thorne]

It would be presumptuous of us to think that we are the only intelligent life force in this massive universe. Not only is highly likely that other beings exist, but - no doubt - they probably surpass us in all areas, including intelligence. However, that does not negate the possibility of miracles.

It is equally presumptuous to think that other intelligent life will necessarily be more intelligent than ourselves, as you imply. Chances are that we are located somewhere in the middle of the intelligence scale, with some worlds having more intelligent life and some having less intelligent life.

As for miracles, I suppose it is a subjective matter. What one person might consider a miracle another might see as a natural process of nature. Just because we may not understand the mechanism of "miracles" doesn't mean that they are a manifestation of a higher power. Knowing that a rainbow is a result of refraction of light through water droplets doesn't make it any less beautiful, but believing it is a bridge to Valhalla doesn't make it any more miraculous, except to the observer.

[blythe spirit]

It is equally presumptuous to think that other intelligent life will necessarily be more intelligent than ourselves, as you imply. Chances are that we are located somewhere in the middle of the intelligence scale, with some worlds having more intelligent life and some having less intelligent life.

As for miracles, I suppose it is a subjective matter. What one person might consider a miracle another might see as a natural process of nature. Just because we may not understand the mechanism of "miracles" doesn't mean that they are a manifestation of a higher power. Knowing that a rainbow is a result of refraction of light through water droplets doesn't make it any less beautiful, but believing it is a bridge to Valhalla doesn't make it any more miraculous, except to the observer.

Golly, gee - I 'pose next you're gonna tell me there's not a pot of gold at the end of the rainbow? Burst my bubble why don't you.

I don't doubt that some life forms are less intelligent than we, I just believe that there are "some" with much more intelligence, who sit on their planet viewing us and laughing their asses off at our stupidity. It's not at all impossible that the seed of life itself (as we know it) was not planted on earth by another civilization.

Nevertheless, I believe in miracles. And while science may be able to explain some miracles away, it does so in theory only. Scientists look at evidence and draw inferences. Science cannot prove everything and is only capable of disproving some things. But I think that's another thread. *winks

[Thorne]

Golly, gee - I 'pose next you're gonna tell me there's not a pot of gold at the end of the rainbow? Burst my bubble why don't you.

And such a cute, delicate little bubble it was!

I don't doubt that some life forms are less intelligent than we, I just believe that there are "some" with much more intelligence, who sit on their planet viewing us and laughing their asses off at our stupidity.

If they have nothing better to do with their time than watch us I have to wonder just how intelligent they can really be!

[blythe spirit]

If they have nothing better to do with their time than watch us I have to wonder just how intelligent they can really be!

Well, our scientist watch mice, don't they? And by the way, it was a cute little bubble.

[ThisYouWillDo]

... Bubbles for sale ...Bubbles for sale ...

Pefectly round, refracting light exquisitely, a miracle of form and tension...

Even if science can explain that a rainbow is caused by refraction, it does not tell us why, when it happens, a rainbow is so beautiful. Science might be right, but it is soul-less.

(Life on other planets would be just as miraculous as life on Earth.)

TYWD

[Thorne]

Even if science can explain that a rainbow is caused by refraction, it does not tell us why, when it happens, a rainbow is so beautiful. Science might be right, but it is soul-less.

A rainbow is beautiful because we think it is beautiful. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder.

If you see a comet in the sky today you would, most likely, perceive it as beautiful, a "miracle" of nature. Yet in ancient, and perhaps not so ancient, times the comet was viewed with horror and fear as a harbinger of evil. The appearance of comets has not changed, only our perception of them, thanks to science!

And since the soul is an artifact of religion science must remain soul-less. That is science's purpose, to cast light on the darkness and drag us out of the depths of superstition. That does not mean it destroys beauty. On the contrary: to my mind, knowing why something is what it is or how it does what it does is just as beautiful and satisfying to me as someone else's "soulful" observations.

[Moonraker]

I am an ignoramus in terms of God but would imagine the answer lies in the purpose of miracles. I suggest that miracles were intended to demonstrate to a pagan world God's existence and power in order they believe in him. They did believe and the therefore it's a case of mission accomplished. God does not performs miracles today.

[ThisYouWillDo]

A rainbow is beautiful because we think it is beautiful. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder.

If you see a comet in the sky today you would, most likely, perceive it as beautiful, a "miracle" of nature. Yet in ancient, and perhaps not so ancient, times the comet was viewed with horror and fear as a harbinger of evil. The appearance of comets has not changed, only our perception of them, thanks to science!

And since the soul is an artifact of religion science must remain soul-less. That is science's purpose, to cast light on the darkness and drag us out of the depths of superstition. That does not mean it destroys beauty. On the contrary: to my mind, knowing why something is what it is or how it does what it does is just as beautiful and satisfying to me as someone else's "soulful" observations.

I shall wait for science to tell me why refraction happens (not just what happens when light is refracted). I shall also wait for science to discover what the uncaused cause was and why it is/was the uncaused cause. Finally, I shall wait for science to tell me why I think a rainbow is beautiful while Thorne (possibly) does not.

I shall not hold my breath.

TYWD.

[Flaming_Redhead]

Simply put, I believe that God still performs miracles today. However, He is finished performing magic tricks for the masses as was done for the Israelites. I think most of the miracles that occur now are answered prayers, like when I prayed for a painless pregnancy and delivery. *smiles* I was only sick once and received an epidural just as my labor pains were beginning, so I really never had any discomfort to speak of. During my first pregnancy, which wasn't carried to term, I puked every single day, several times a day. Ask any woman who's given birth, and they'll tell you I had it exceptionally easy. Some people might not find that miraculous. *shrugs* They could say I was just lucky.

As far as questioning why God doesn't help everyone all the time, I don't really have an answer for that. I don't know why my aunt's breast cancer wasn't cured, and she died at only 40 years old after 3 years of treatment, leaving behind a loving husband and 3 young children. The only thing I can think of is that when Adam and Eve disobeyed God and were banished from a life of ease in the Garden of Eden, they weren't promised that life would be fair. In fact, they were promised that life would be hard. They had to work for their food instead of simply foraging in the lush garden, and the ground wasn't going to cooperate. There were now weeds and such to deal with. Then, tragedy struck when Cain killed Abel. I suppose God could have prevented Cain from bashing in his brother's skull. I also think He could have prevented Eve from eating the forbidden fruit. Why even put the tree in the garden to start with? Should we blame God for giving us free will? Maybe my aunt shouldn't have smoked cigarettes. Maybe she should've gone to the doctor sooner when she noticed a lump and demanded that it be excised. Some things are brought upon ourselves. Some things are unexplainable. We could drive ourselves crazy with "what ifs." I choose to believe that a rainbow is a miracle, a promise from God that he won't destroy the entire world with water again.

Next time, it'll be with fire. *eg*

[Thorne]

I shall wait for science to tell me why refraction happens (not just what happens when light is refracted). I shall also wait for science to discover what the uncaused cause was and why it is/was the uncaused cause. Finally, I shall wait for science to tell me why I think a rainbow is beautiful while Thorne (possibly) does not.

I shall not hold my breath.

TYWD.

Refraction happens because light travels at different speeds through different media. If you want to know why THAT is then I suggest you take a course in optics.
As for the uncaused cause, I have no idea what you're talking about.
And I never said I don't think a rainbow is beautiful. On the contrary, I think they are quite amazing. As for why you think they are beautiful, it's probably because you were taught that they are. Beauty is a subjective matter, primarily. And it changes all the time. What we find beautiful today may be viewed as vulgar 10 or 20 years from now.
True, some beauty lasts for a long time. Music especially is enduring. Yet even that is subjective. Many people find opera to be exquisite, food for the soul. To me it is no better than fingernails scraping across a chalkboard. I enjoy the music! But you can keep the singing.
And the same can hold true for belief systems. Most people tend to believe what they were taught to believe. And they hold to those beliefs because they are comfortable, uncomplicated. Questioning them requires an effort which many people are not willing to put forth. Yes, some turn to other belief systems, some turn away from all of them completely. It is all subjective, different for everyone. And in that diversity there is true beauty.

[Thorne]

Voodoo_Child
A beautiful and thoughtful statement of your beliefs. I applaud you for your sincerity, and my sympathies for your aunt.
Yet within your post lies the central reasons for my lack of faith. I cannot permit myself to believe in a God who would take the life of a young mother and wife while allowing evil people to live, and to live in relative luxury. I cannot tolerate a God who would force millions of people who love and fear him to labor in poverty and filth while hypocritical thieves rob them of what little they can salvage and live lives of privilege and wealth. What God deserving of that love could allow innocent children to be raped, abuse, murdered, while those who perform that abuse go unpunished. And how can any God force all of humanity to pay for the sin of just two people. This is not a God who is worthy of my love. If he truly does exist he is worthy only of contempt.

[Euryleia]

I agree with Thorne that the miracles of our forebearers can be almost entirely explained through scientific inquiry. As Arthur Clarke wrote: "Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic."

Knowing why a rainbow happens does not lessen its beauty. In fact, I think knowing the enormous odds of not only our planet developing in such a way to sustain life but the fact that you (individual) exist, is pretty darn miraculous. Is it the hand of G*d? In my opinion, it doesn't matter. I'm just thankful to have people like you in my life.

[Flaming_Redhead]

Voodoo_Child
A beautiful and thoughtful statement of your beliefs. I applaud you for your sincerity, and my sympathies for your aunt.
Yet within your post lies the central reasons for my lack of faith. I cannot permit myself to believe in a God who would take the life of a young mother and wife while allowing evil people to live, and to live in relative luxury. I cannot tolerate a God who would force millions of people who love and fear him to labor in poverty and filth while hypocritical thieves rob them of what little they can salvage and live lives of privilege and wealth. What God deserving of that love could allow innocent children to be raped, abuse, murdered, while those who perform that abuse go unpunished. And how can any God force all of humanity to pay for the sin of just two people. This is not a God who is worthy of my love. If he truly does exist he is worthy only of contempt.

Thank you for the kind words. There seems to be no end to the evil that people are capable of, but it is my belief that the wicked will not go unpunished. I think torment in hell for eternity is worse than any prison sentence we could impose, though I'm not opposed to hurrying wrongdoers on their merry way. *eg* If I chose not to believe in God, then I would also have to believe that there would be no justice in the end. It's a miserable thought. Anyway, your view point reminds me of an old song, which still doesn't explain why bad things happen to good people....

"Farther Along"

Tempted and tried we're oft made to wonder
Why it should be thus all the day long
While there are others living about us
Never molested though in the wrong

[Chorus]
Farther along we'll know all about it
Farther along we'll understand why
Cheer up my brother live in the sunshine
We'll understand it all by and by

When death has come and taken our loved ones
It leaves our home so lonely and drear
And then do we wonder why others prosper
Living so wicked year after year

[Repeat Chorus]

When we see Jesus coming in glory
When he comes down from his home in the sky
Then we shall meet him in that bright mansion
We'll understand it all by and by

[Repeat Chorus]
Yeah we'll understand it all by and by

[ThisYouWillDo]

.

Refraction happens because light travels at different speeds through different media. If you want to know why THAT is then I suggest you take a course in optics.

I think that's how it happens, not why.

As for the uncaused cause, I have no idea what you're talking about.

Can science explain what caused the Big Bang: the uncaused cause (supposing there was one)? Or why?

Come to that, can science even explain what an atom, the fundamental building-block of matter is (supposing there are any)?

And I never said I don't think a rainbow is beautiful. On the contrary, I think they are quite amazing. As for why you think they are beautiful, it's probably because you were taught that they are. Beauty is a subjective matter, primarily.

Not if I was taught what beauty is, as you presume.

And it changes all the time. What we find beautiful today may be viewed as vulgar 10 or 20 years from now.

True, some beauty lasts for a long time. Music especially is enduring. Yet even that is subjective. Many people find opera to be exquisite, food for the soul. To me it is no better than fingernails scraping across a chalkboard. I enjoy the music! But you can keep the singing.

Try this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3dfbZ...eature=related That is singing at its most sublime - although the recording quality's not great.

And the same can hold true for belief systems. Most people tend to believe what they were taught to believe. And they hold to those beliefs because they are comfortable, uncomplicated. Questioning them requires an effort which many people are not willing to put forth. Yes, some turn to other belief systems, some turn away from all of them completely. It is all subjective, different for everyone. And in that diversity there is true beauty.

You are confusing me where you say beauty is taught, but is subjective. Care to elaborate for me?

[Thorne]

Try this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3dfbZ...eature=related That is singing at its most sublime - although the recording quality's not great.

Nope, sorry, I just don't appreciate it. The underlying music seems lovely, no question, when I can hear it through the vocalization. The singing just seems to grate on my nerves. Not all singing, though. I grew up listening to Julie Andrews (my mother loved her voice) so I "learned" to enjoy it. I'm not a big fan, but I can listen without wincing, usually. And choral works are generally enjoyable. The Hallelujah Chorus from Handel's Messiah, especially when performed by the Mormon Tabernacle Choir, is outstanding. And as I said previously, some operatic music is enjoyable to me. Wagner's Overture to Tannhäuser is a particular favorite.

You are confusing me where you say beauty is taught, but is subjective. Care to elaborate for me?

By subjective I mean that it is entirely dependent upon the viewer, or listener. There is no hard and fast rule about what is or is not beautiful. There may be things that are commonly thought of as beautiful, especially in a cultural sense. But these things may not be considered beautiful in a different culture.
That being said, you can be taught to appreciate something which someone else believes is beautiful, and even come to believe it yourself. When I was growing up in the 60's the Beatles, the Stones, Bob Dylan and many others were very popular among my peers. Classical music was generally frowned upon, even ridiculed by some. But I grew up listening to classical music, and I still enjoy it to this day. Beethoven, Liszt, Chopin, most of the great composers, are always enjoyable. Even some of the modern composers: Williams, Zimmer, those who write orchestral pieces. This is basically a "learned" appreciation. But it is still subjective.

[ThisYouWillDo]

Wagner's Overture to Tannhäuser is a particular favorite.

Even you have redeeming qualities!

I suppose listening to a piece of music like that is a bit like reading a chapter from a book in isolation: while it might be brilliant prose, it is out of context. Likewise, I think sometimes operatic pieces suffer when not heard in a full performance. (I, personally, could listen to this one over and over without seeing the whole performance, however).



I think can agree with you that, while the ability to appreciate beauty might have to be taught, the act of appreciating it is a subjective one. So, while I might think my wife is ugly, and you consider her beautiful, there is a quality of "beauty" out there somewhere that we both subscribe to: an idea of what beauty is. Science cannot explain what that is.

TYWD

[TomOfSweden]

Are people having two different discussions here.

Miracle = something unbelievably extraordinary.

or

Miracle = there's an external, (possibly intelligent) entity that can suspend the laws of nature, ie perform magic.

They're arguably the same thing. I suspect that it's just that some people have a wee bit too high trust in their faculties and draw the conclusion, "I don't get it, therefore it is magic".

I wouldn't be surprised if the border between these two interpretations simply comes down to what level of education you've passed.

I believe in miracles to. But I don't see any shame in not understanding everything.

[Logic1]

No, I dont believe that. That is a simple enough answer for me

[Ozme52]

I shall wait for science to tell me why refraction happens (not just what happens when light is refracted). I shall also wait for science to discover what the uncaused cause was and why it is/was the uncaused cause. Finally, I shall wait for science to tell me why I think a rainbow is beautiful while Thorne (possibly) does not.

I shall not hold my breath.

TYWD.

Science does tell us why refraction happens. That 'white' light is a combination of many wavelengths. That each wave length refracts (bends) as it passes through boundaries between different media by different amounts and thereby gets separated.

I too wonder what you mean by uncaused cause? Whatever you mean, you obfuscate it by choosing to used this entirely uninspired oxymoron.

You think the rainbow is beautiful because you have been taught by all who come before you saying it is beautiful. And because we like color. And if you ask why we like color, it's because food comes in colors. Sex has colors, (red lips, pink skin, brown, blue, green eyes, etc.) Animal furs, which keep us warm come in colors. Flowers which have attractant odors come in colors.

Any argument between religion and science is going to send us to our respective corners. Even those of us who believe in God but that God set the world in motion with some pretty nifty mechanisms so he wouldn't have to micromanage it all (like evolution!!! on no!!! gasp!!! ) are going to line up on the side of science and argue against those who would rather leave it to God than understand the world he actually did create for us. (Not naming names here, just describing the attitude that befuddles me.)

---------------------------------------------

Now... as far as the actual question of miracles is concerned... again, we humans seem to like thinking God cares about us in detail. But if you actually read your bible... the real miracles involve a lot of death and destruction and suffering.

Did God part the Red Sea? Saved the Hebrews? or did he really just want to teach Pharoh a lesson and use it to trap and drown Pharoh's army. Killed Pharoh's first born son and all the first born sons of Egypt. Then let the Hebrews wander the desert for a lifetime rather than just show them the way....

Burned Sodom and Gomorrah to the ground and turned Lot's wife to salt for having a quick peek. Nasty entity God is.

Destroyed the world with a flood. Why bother to save Noah and his family? Only takes 7 days to create the universe and 40 days to flood our planet. Why not start over? Or is he just a practicle joker. "Hi Noah, I want you to muck out all these stalls for the next 8 weeks."

Make a mistake, go to hell. Gotta be perfect to get to heaven. And God's representatives, priests and ministers and bishops and popes and rabbis all have different sets of rules and even change those rules all the time. Can't eat meat on Fridays... I wonder what all those souls in hell are thinking now?

Y'all put too much faith in the writings of men who themselves believe God spoke through them. Today we call that insane. Either that or we're putting all that faith in men who merely claimed God spoke to them and today we call that type charletons, scoundrals, and thieves.

We'd be better off if we didn't preach to others and insist everyone believe the same way. Every person should be left alone to find their own spirituality.

[Ozme52]

Red (can we still call you Red?)

The problem with this statement...

There seems to be no end to the evil that people are capable of, but it is my belief that the wicked will not go unpunished. I think torment in hell for eternity is worse than any prison sentence we could impose, though I'm not opposed to hurrying wrongdoers on their merry way. *eg* If I chose not to believe in God, then I would also have to believe that there would be no justice in the end. It's a miserable thought. Anyway, your view point reminds me of an old song, which still doesn't explain why bad things happen to good people....

...is "Who defines wicked?"

The "people" who brought you the concept of hell would say you are wicked. Sex outside of marriage, sex for pleasure instead of procreation, worshipping (by their defintion) another before God...

[Ozme52]

I think can agree with you that, while the ability to appreciate beauty might have to be taught, the act of appreciating it is a subjective one. So, while I might think my wife is ugly, and you consider her beautiful, there is a quality of "beauty" out there somewhere that we both subscribe to: an idea of what beauty is. Science cannot explain what that is.

TYWD

Actually science can explain that. Turns out to mostly be about symmetry. Ask a large sampling of men and women to arrange a large sampling of faces from most handsome/beautiful to least and then take measurements of all the faces and the most symmetrical faces are beautiful and the least symmetrical faces are ugly.

So the point is that we are governed by things that science can explain. And you can ask all you want about big bang and atoms... Your attitude is very arrogant in the sense that your argument presumes we know everything there is to know... and anything we don't know must be because of some omnipotent omniscient being.

[Ozme52]

Are people having two different discussions here.

Miracle = something unbelievably extraordinary.

or

Miracle = there's an external, (possibly intelligent) entity that can suspend the laws of nature, ie perform magic.

They're arguably the same thing. I suspect that it's just that some people have a wee bit too high trust in their faculties and draw the conclusion, "I don't get it, therefore it is magic".

Well therein lies the issue. Where does science end.

I wouldn't be surprised if the border between these two interpretations simply comes down to what level of education you've passed.

I think you're spot on Tom. But I'll go a step further and suggest that those who believe in a 'miracle-performing god' think mankind has now learned all there is to learn and everything else must be God's works.

I believe in miracles to.

I also can easily use that word to help others understand my wonder and awe...

But I don't see any shame in not understanding everything.

...in the things I don't understand... today.