Burning the American Flag

[Daes]

I read an article today that a Constitutional Amendmant to ban flag burning fell short of only One vote to pass through the Senate and be made into law, 66 to 34 in Favor of the amendmant.

Do you think that burning the american flag should be punishable by law?
Does it cross the boundries of free speech or is it still every person's right?


I'll give my own opinion once I've read a few.

Keep in mind everyone is entitled to their opinion ^_^ but no flammy comments.

[Alex Bragi]

A nation's flag is its symbol of unity.

I think that when you make a big deal out of burning a flag, in public, you show a blatant disrespect for the people of that nation.

Having said that, however, I don't think it should be a 'punishable' offense.

Here, in Australia, people burn flags left, right, and centre--they quite literally use it as a protest against all sides of the government. The majority of us, don't like it, but I've never heard of anyone actually being prosecuted for doing it. I mean, what would be the point? It would simply give more publicity to what ever cause was being protested by the flag burners in the first place.

And, no I don't think it's every person's right.

[Ozme52]

I think that when you make a big deal out of burn a flag, in public, you show a blatant disrespect for the people of that nation.

This law is about citizens burning their own flag, (as you point out later in your post...)

The USA is supposed to be about freedoms and this law is a knee-jerk reaction against those who would "dare" criticize the current leadership, whomever it may be at the time.

I'm glad the amendment failed to pass. Take away all the non-violent means of protest and what will that leave us?

[fantassy]

this law is a knee-jerk reaction against those who would "dare" criticize the current leadership, whomever it may be at the time.

I agree with you Oz, as usual. Don't you think this was yet another attempt for Congress to appear to be doing something when they are trying to avoid actually governing, which might piss someone off right before the midterm election? I mean, I haven't seen a rash of flag-burning lately.

fantassy

[Ozme52]

No, I blame this on the ultra conservatists who support Bush-Cheney. They pushed forward this amendment and the Senate was literally forced to consider it.

That being said, I'm disappointed with the large number who were scared of pissing off their constituencies and actually voted for it.

The amendment I'd like to see is the line-item veto. So that good Bills don't get linked to bad spending and pork barrels.

[Alex Bragi]

So, you think it's a bit of red herring perhaps? Interesting, and cold comfort to know it happens in other countries too.

Look, I know the US is about freedoms, but when you choose to live in a country/community, shouldn't you expect to live by certain rules and standards that are acceptable to the majority? I mean, OZme52, tell me honestly, do you have the 'freedom' to walk out of your house right now, naked and smoking a joint?

[arwcuw]

I think the flag is a symbol, nothing more. Taking it a bit further, I think it's little more than a colorful piece of fabric. I don't think there should be a law against burning a piece of fabric it at all. It brings up the question: if you're in the wilderness, and it's freezing cold, and your fire is dying, and you have an American flag that would give you a few minutes more of heat, should you be arrested for adding it to the fire?

Of course, I think it's pretty damn stupid for an American to burn an American flag for political reasons. If you must burn something, burn a symbol of the thing you're protesting, not a symbol of the thing that's given you the freedom to burn things. Actually, I think the pyros ought to find less poluting ways to get attention.

[Daes]

Awesome opinions everyone, Ive enjoyed reading them all ^^ Now I get to put out my share of the fun cause I feel pretty strongly towards this matter.

I understand that the American flag is a symbol of patriotism and freedom that thousands and thousands of soldiers have died protecting throughout the decades time and time again. I could understand how veterans within the Senate would feel offended and feel strongly about having their flag burned without a care by individuals that have never had to risk their lives for their country. Personally, I don’t /like/ the burning of out flag, in fact I think it’s ignorant and spiteful…

However.

My opinion should not be made into law. My personal feelings about an action should not be imposed upon others. Laws are made to prevent others from hurting each other, burning the national flag does no harm to anyone. It is simply an act of expression, and this Right is what the United States prides itself upon. That we are free to express ourselves through Non-Violent Acts, we can shout and scream and curse our politicians so long as we are not directly threatening them with harm (of course not without being removed from their presence).

How is it any different than holding up a banner or sign outside of Congress’ gates? Because it offends? Well God forbid we offend someone. Does that mean the possibility to offend is grounds for a law to ban such an action or word? Of course not! Because My opinion should not be made into law.

It really bothers me that it came so close, though I suppose the new congress shall be voted in within the next year. Just that, if they are willing to put through such a /small/ thing, what will come next?

[Alex Bragi]

This is an interesting thread, and your response is excellent and well expressed, Daes.

You live in a democratic nation where you have voice and a vote, and so while you say "your opinion should not be made into law", your opinion most certainly does count.

[Warbaby1943]

My opinion should not be made into law.

I agree. However if the majority of "we the people" feel the same way, then it should indeed be made into law. I believe we, at the very least, should have the opportunity to vote on it.

I think burning the flag by one's own people is very disrespectful. If you have ever served in the military you probably develop very strong feelings one way or the other on this subject. I know I did! I would certainly hope you felt this nation and its flag are worth protecting. I'm not saying to send people to jail for burning the flag. I believe they should definitely be heavily fined. To me it is an insult to all veterans who have served their country and put their own lives on the line so someone has the right to remain free and protest.

What are they saying when they burn the flag? If it is that they don't like what it stands for and the country they live in, then there are always other countries where they can move and try to burn their new country's flag.

Burn the flag only to destroy one that has served its purpose. I'd probably want to shoot the SOB that tried to burn the flag that draped my fathers coffin. There are means to get your point across other than burning a flag.

This is my opinion.

[Silke]

I always get the chills when I hear a great deal of patriotism - might be due to growing up in a country where shouting out 'I'm proud to be German' would have gotten you a lot of weird and hostile looks.

But apart from that (I'm quite comfortable with my nationality now ), I've never seen the point of putting that much on symbols, be it a flag, a cross or whatever. It's just a symbol and not everybody is going to feel the same about it. And if someone burns a flag, I might not like the ideas behind it, but it doesn't take anything away from my values, beliefs or whatever.

I think the reactions after the Mohammed caricatures were released shows where being too fanatic about symbols and beliefs can lead to... What harm do I do to you personally if I burn a US flag to protest against Bush for example? It might not be the most elegant way for protest, but it doesn't do any real harm, either. It only destroys a piece of fabric, not the ideas behind it for those who believe in them.

*waves German flag happily to support our football team*

[Rabbit1]

I think the time and effort spent on this bill would have been better spent on other issues like affordable healt care---the flag is means only things that a particular person thinks about them ---yes I love the flag --to me it is a symbol of freedom that many have died to give us. And part of that freedom is the right of expression ---burning the flag is an expression ---the Supreme Court had already said that this fell under the freedom of speach part of the constitution ---so why are our senate and congress wasting time and our money on this again. one problem is we are not looking forward ---lets spend time saving Social Security --not looking back at a law that was defeated years ago---Lets take care of our people ---that is what the flag stands for ---one people united under god ---with liberty and justice for all

And not it is not just a Republican issue ---some Democrats jumped on the bandwagon ---they keep looking to get reelected instead of taking a stand on what is right---yes I think there should be term limits in the congress

The fat cats get too comfortable there---and seem to forget who put them there and why they are there --until reelection time when they all of a sudden remember---and tell you all the things you want to hear

I am a Democrat---but I am sick of hearing about how messed up the Medicare drug card is ----During the Clinton administration --We the Democrats had an opportunity to pass one ---we did nothing --now because it passed under the Republicans--we bash it as not being good enough well listen fellow Democrats ---it may not be ---but it is a hell of a lot better than the nothing we passed---

So burn the flags ---say what you want ----but remember ---the men who laided down their lives for you to have that right

I would rather see people burn the flag to get their point across than use terrorism to do the same thing--which is not legal ---but still happening
So what difference is a law going to make about burning a flag---lets enforce the laws we have

[katie_21]

I don't think it should really be punishable by law, however I do think it's a waste of time. And just my opinion but if you hate America that bad, then get the hell out.

[_ID_]

Interesting responses by everyone. I have seen the news, but I was at a location I was unable to access the internet. Now that I am back I am glad to be able to partcipate in this discussion.

My view - Even if it had been approved, it wouldn't have become law. Two reasons. One The Supreme Court already ruled that the first amendment says that the act of burning the flag falls into it's protection of freedom of speach. So if congress were to pass a law that were to oppose this, and the supreme court didn't rule that the amendment was unconstituional, then the supreme court would be admiting error in judgment. I believe this wouldn't take place. Second reason it wouldn't become law. The states must ratify the amendment for it to become law. I don't think that this would occur either. Why, well just gut feeling mostly.

I am an United States of America Soldier. I go to work everyday so that those freedoms established by the constitution are defended, and upheld. I would willingly give my life to defend a libreal who was protesting my actions by burning a flag.

Freedom of expresion is one of the very basic rights america was founded on. It has a religious foundation, but its implications are far reaching. I think that once goverment begins erroding those freedoms currently guarenteed by the us constituion. Our country will quickly go downhill (as far as the freedoms we are guarenteed).

Thank you for allowing me to express my views here. It is truely an honor to be able to think I am in the collective of this group.

V/R
ID

[Warbaby1943]

I am an United States of America Soldier. I go to work everyday so that those freedoms established by the constitution are defended, and upheld. I would willingly give my life to defend a libreal who was protesting my actions by burning a flag.
V/R
ID

I salute and thank you for what you are doing and hope you never have to give up your life for anyone. I guess the flag just holds more symbolism for me than maybe it should. However, I hate to see it being desecrated by people who would never even consider defending it.

[heycarrieanne]

I read today that were 45 reported instances of flag burning between 1777 and 1989! This is not exactly a huge problem in this county, IMHO!!!

[Kraven]

First... I'm a bad boy, I didn't read all the replies -- so this is just my thinking without any clouding from what's already been posted.

1) Constitutional Amendmants should be.. to preserve freedoms/rights. NONE of the current/active amendmants limit freedom - unless I'm horribly wrong. The only one that did was prohibition... and that got repealled.

2) We like to call our country the "Home of Free and the Land of the Brave" and we also like to say we are a Melting Pot. Nothing can be more basic.. more vital to the notion of being free than the right to express yourself however you see fit -- provided you aren't harming anyone else. Patriotism isn't about blind love and approval for your country, it's about loving your country enough to do whatever, no matter how unpopular with the majority, needs to be done to get the attention that's needed. We need to be brave enough to let folks do what they feel they need to do to express themselves.

Yes, you can be a patriot and say the current situation in Iraq is wrong.

Yes, you can say we shouldn't be in Iraq, but say you fully support out troops.

If you can't quite grasp how can do each of these, then your mind isn't quite as open as you might think it is.

Yes, I feel folks who have served and died in the military have been fighting for just this sort of "right" - living free doesn't mean everyone agrees with you.. or values things the same way. The fact that we are meltingpot means we are going to have very different views on a lot of issues.

All that being said.. I feel the need to include.. something regarding my own views on a few issues -- I don't like Bush. I'm not so sure Kerry would be better.. in fact, that those two were the "best" choices saddens me greatly. I tend to vote for Libertarian (www.lp.org) folks.

Can I ever see myself burning the flag? No. I don't much see the point of buring a flag. I don't see how it supports anything, but then then PETA folks like to do naked protests -- I guess people feel doing something "shocking" will raise awareness and, hopefully, support.

Do I like I live in a country where I can, if I choose, burn the flag and ridicule my leader and not face jail time or death? Yes! That's exactly what makes this such a great place to live.

Any and all typos.. and gramatical errors.. are the fault of a bottled labeled Knob's Creek -- where Abe Lincoln was born -- and not the typist.

[heycarrieanne]

Good post, Kraven!!

[Warbaby1943]

Kraven,
You make a lot of valid points. Still I would like to see some other form of protest other than burning our nations flag, a symbol of all those freedoms you and everyone else holds so dearly to their hearts.

[Ozme52]

So, you think it's a bit of red herring perhaps? Interesting, and cold comfort to know it happens in other countries too.

Look, I know the US is about freedoms, but when you choose to live in a country/community, shouldn't you expect to live by certain rules and standards that are acceptable to the majority? I mean, OZme52, tell me honestly, do you have the 'freedom' to walk out of your house right now, naked and smoking a joint?

No... but maybe I should. Is human nudity really any different than a dog, or a horse? And who do I hurt if I smoke on my own property?

But more importantly, this would be a NEW rule and one which serves no purpose save to eliminate my ability to legally protest in this manner.

[Ozme52]

I think the flag is a symbol, nothing more. Taking it a bit further, I think it's little more than a colorful piece of fabric. I don't think there should be a law against burning a piece of fabric it at all. It brings up the question: if you're in the wilderness, and it's freezing cold, and your fire is dying, and you have an American flag that would give you a few minutes more of heat, should you be arrested for adding it to the fire?

Of course, I think it's pretty damn stupid for an American to burn an American flag for political reasons. If you must burn something, burn a symbol of the thing you're protesting, not a symbol of the thing that's given you the freedom to burn things. Actually, I think the pyros ought to find less poluting ways to get attention.

...Which is why it almost never happens. Flag burning is a very rare event... yet it has become a rallying point for the ultra-conservatists. What they are trying to do is win the easy points and get the ball rolling... to eliminate dissent.

[Alex Bragi]

[Ozme52=No... but maybe I should. Is human nudity really any different than a dog, or a horse? [/quote]

I don't know Ozme52, how titilated are you by the sight of a naked dog or horse anyway? (Sorry! *lol*)

Great post, Kraven!

[Kraven]

Warbaby1943

You do realize that the vast majority of flags aren't even made in this country right? The one's I've checked tend to say China, Tiawan, and, if memory serves, Vietnam. Why an uproar about burning something that's not even made here?

Could I see an uproar if the original flag was burned? Yes -- that flag as a whole heck of a lot of meaning & significance.. but a flag bought at Wal-mart?

If someone burned a home-printed copy of the constitution, would you care?

Interestingly, when I see a flag being burned.. the general notion I take from it isn't tha the burners are destroying the flag/burning the country -- but that they are saying whoever they are protesting is that doing. That if they are protesting Bush, then it's Bush who's destroying the country and they are using the flag to show that.

The whole "hitch" about a country based on freedoms is that you are always, always, always going to have neighbors doing something you don't like. People are diverse.

Back to your post.. the very fact that we are free to burn the flag.. is what's so great about it. If you start to limit freedoms.. then you are limiting what the flag stands for -- you are devaluing it. You are limiting this country.. and, I argue, NOT a patriot. If you want to live in a country with lots of laws that limit what you can and can't do.. well, just close your eyes, spin the globe and jab your finger on a spot (hopefully, you'll get something other than ocean after a few trys).

[chattel69]

I don't know if it was just my upbringing or what but I already thought it was illegal to burn the flag, I guess it is just immoral. I know people do it as a protest but I don't see the flag as part of the government. To me the flag is a symbol of our independence and freedom. I just think it is disrespectful to alter the flag in anyway be it burning, turning it into a camp chair, or clothing.

[Alex Bragi]

Kraven,
You make a lot of valid points. Still I would like to see some other form of protest other than burning our nations flag, a symbol of all those freedoms you and everyone else holds so dearly to their hearts.

Exactly! All valid points but...

Kraven, it doesn't matter where a flag is made, it still represents the same thing, and burning it, as protest, will still be highly offensive to many people whether it's made here, there, or where ever.

I think perhaps the importance of this is really not the legality of flag burning, which seems to be the focus here, but more the morality of it.

Living in Australia, I have right to speak out about politics, religion, sex—damn it anything I want really, but I often choose not to. Why? Because in certain circumstances it's just not appropriate, and so I respect those situations to the extent of taking care about what I say and do. I think we all do it to a certain extent, don't we? I mean, isn't that what being civilised is all about?

Sure, a nation's flag maybe just a piece of cloth to a lot of people, and that's fine, that's their view and they're certainly entitled to it.

I agree people are diverse. Surely that's what makes life so interesting, but is it really asking so much, is it really such a sacrifice to bear to understand and respect that the flag means more to some people than others? A person's beliefs are what make them who and what they are, and to many people the symbols of who and what they hold great signifigance. I feel that it's extremely selfish and self-indulgent to desecrate something that's important to someone else, but not you, just because you feel it's your right to use it in that way, wouldn't you agree?

George Bush adheres to strong Christian beliefs. I'm agnostic, so Christian symbols don't mean anything to me, but I still wouldn't go chopping up a cross or desecrating pictures of Christ as a form of protest. The flag is just a piece of cloth, as a cross is just piece of wood, and so forth for any 'symbol'.

Burning your nation's flag is like many things, you can do, but maybe you just shouldn't.

[Alex Bragi]

chantell69, I just want tell you, yes, yes, and yes!

[Warbaby1943]

Alex,
Very, very well stated. I wish some of the flag burners could read it.

[DungeonMaster6]

Personally, burning the U.S. flag is reprehensible. It's just one of those things you just don't do.

Yet, as it has been stated here so eloquently, freedom of expression is such a valuable right, that even flag burning( which is definitely an expression) is allowed. Try living in a country where if you committed such a heinous act, you'd be executed.

[Tojo]

Excellent post Daes, damn these young people are smart these days.

Yes I agree it's disrespectful & stupid to burn any flag- if I saw someone doing it I'd want to slap them.

As for making it law, that's about as smart as burning your country's flag.

In Australia, I fear & dislike the current government- both sides really, but don't blame it on my country. I love this place.

Tojo

[Texalp]

I thought Texas was right; when its flag burning law was struck down, we just made flag burning fighting words. If someone burns a flag and I take offense;then if I beat it to a pulp I have a defense in court. The flag burning started the fight.
The Constitution is protected, his right t burn a flag is protected, and my right to express my displeasure is protected. Halal are happy.
Now if only we could protect spanking the same way All would be well. Al