positive reinforcement vs punishment

[SUBtly_shy]

positive reinforcement vs punishment

My owner and I are both new to the bdsm seen. We are currently working on my training and really learning and growing together as Dom & Sub couple. So the question is what do you find more effective on you personally, positive reinforcement or punishment?

For example:
Today if I behave properly (no smart ass remarks or being a pain) I get to cum tonight if my owner thinks I have earned it. For me that sounds WONDERFUL I'm work to something.

So in your opinion what is more effective on you and why?

[Mizar]

neither is MORE effective, it is the instances in which they are used. Should you be bad then punishment is used, even necessary. But on the occasions you are good, you should, rightfully, be rewarded for it. Positive to positive, negative for negative.

[dillinja]

I use both pos and neg reinforcment. When she does good she gets a treat, when she doesnt perform up to expectations or completly fails she get a punishment. I dont like punishing her, and i very much like giving her rewards and treats. I feel if you only punish and dont give out any rewards a sub will feel that even if they do good they get nothing. If you only give positive rewards and no negitive rewards you are going to end up with a very bratty sub that wont be responsive to your desires... thats just my 2 cents though i could be wrong..

edit: bah he beat me to it!

[Laila]

Generally in life I almost only respond to positive reinforcement. Starting in highschool - if a teacher would give me a slightly worse mark to 'motivate' me, I'd get so angry and pouty and generally destructive. Good marks though always helped me wanting to keep them and improve on them.

Its the same now at work - if I receive praise, I want to prove I deserved it and will work so much harder. If however, I feel like someone think I should be working harder of explicitly tells me so (hasn't actually happened I just interpreted something that was said wrong), i will do it - but grudgingly and not as good as after positive reinforcement.

Or with loosing weight. As soon as I feel a guy doesn't like me for my weigh which should be a great motivation to loose some, I can't do anything. Its the worst mental block imaginable. On the other hand when I do feel loved, accepted and attractive, its almost easy.

Now in a bdsm context - to be honest I haven't actually been punished for wrong-doing before. lol i'm a very good girl and well, we haven't been in a true Master/slave relationship for so long.
Positive reinforcement makes me glow with pride though, wanting to get better and better - lol and seriously dreading the day I might disappoing him. Not because I'll get punished but because of the disappointment.

I do think though that this is different for everybody. Depending on the sub - or rather, the person. I'm the kind of person that seeks positive feedback and praise in every aspect of my life (slighly pathetically so) - so this reflects who I am.

[denuseri]

Giggles, this is so not my department.

I respond to both accordingly. As one might think to be natural, I do much prefer the former to the later.

Though sometimes I am bad "uncounsiously on purpose" just so I can get that "oh so special" reminder to be a good girl. (winks)

[dillinja]

Giggles, this is so not my department.

I respond to both accordingly. As one might think to be natural, I do much prefer the former to the later.

Though sometimes I am bad "uncounsiously on purpose" just so I can get that "oh so special" reminder to be a good girl. (winks)

im sure my kitty does the same thing...instead of acting out have you ever suggested to you Dom(me) that you wish to have play time. I have definitly noticed when my kitty comes in the room and starts doing things with some suggestive poses. Her favorites is bending waaay over the arm of the couch to reach her bag instead of walking around it to get it, then she holds that pose for a lil bit longer then neccessary. Of course some times it back fires and i ignor her for a while and let her squirm until im ready for playing...

[denuseri]

I never openly verbally ask or "beg" as he calls it. Not without permission.

I do however comunicate in a wide variaty of other ways,,licks my lips ,,lol.

I dont "act out" expecting to recieve something pleasurable, if i was being bad to get attention he knows it and often times punishes me swiftly to remind me of my place (and i would have it no other way).

The behavior you seem to be talking about with your girl is something i do all the time to tantalize and excite him. He knows he can have "it" at the snap of a finger, I am just reminding him. (winks)

[SUBtly_shy]

that you guys for your input. For me I like to have a goal to work to that I KNOW will make him happy. IF I have that focus I don't worry about getting trouble as much and then I do'nt get in trouble. kinda funny how that works.

[leah06]

This is not relevant to anyone else, but for me personally, I can't even stand the thought of being punished in any way - physically, verbally, anything. Even in play I don't like punishment. If I would disappoint my partner I would want him to discuss it with me, period. Just knowing that I had disappointed him would be sufficient punishment, without any scolding or anything else, and I would be highly motivated to do better in the future. If I were punished - I think I would just shut down.

[Guest110308]

First of all, I would like to thank Shy for starting this thread.
I do respond to both. But think that if you don't have both postive reinforcement and punishment, there is something missing from the relationship. All of one or the other, i think would make a bratty sub as mentioned earlier.
When i was first exploing my submissive side, i did "act out" on occasion in the hopes that i would recieve the punishment i craved. I don't believe this was a topping from the bottom scenerio. I didn't realize until my Sir at the time, said you can just ask/say you need a spanking from me..Since then i haven't acted out very much.
Also mentioned was the knowledge that you have disappointed your Sir as punishment in itself. yes, it is. But without any acknowledgement or discussion, is anything learned?
I think that some punishment should be included. Just this girl thoughts.
huggles

[damyanti]

Generally in life I almost only respond to positive reinforcement. Starting in highschool - if a teacher would give me a slightly worse mark to 'motivate' me, I'd get so angry and pouty and generally destructive. Good marks though always helped me wanting to keep them and improve on them.

Its the same now at work - if I receive praise, I want to prove I deserved it and will work so much harder. If however, I feel like someone think I should be working harder of explicitly tells me so (hasn't actually happened I just interpreted something that was said wrong), i will do it - but grudgingly and not as good as after positive reinforcement.

Or with loosing weight. As soon as I feel a guy doesn't like me for my weigh which should be a great motivation to loose some, I can't do anything. Its the worst mental block imaginable. On the other hand when I do feel loved, accepted and attractive, its almost easy.

Now in a bdsm context - to be honest I haven't actually been punished for wrong-doing before. lol i'm a very good girl and well, we haven't been in a true Master/slave relationship for so long.
Positive reinforcement makes me glow with pride though, wanting to get better and better - lol and seriously dreading the day I might disappoing him. Not because I'll get punished but because of the disappointment.

This is so me, I am exactly the same way in that regard, thank you for saying it Laila....but when it comes to bdsm...I am not the type that would make a mistake on purpose (smart ass comments dont count ) just to get punished,...I am far from masochists, but still there is a level of pain I find enjoyable and certainly his ability to do it is a turn on....but corporal punishment is also a useful deterrent...it eases the pain I feel for causing him disappointment...and I do need the security of knowing he is strong enough to do it. So I do need both positive and "negative" reinforcement...balancing...well its what makes life and this lifestyle so fun.

[Veralynne]

Just to be annoying because I majored in Psychology-

If a sub does something wrong and the Master punishes them, it is not negative reinforcement. Negative REINFORCEMENT reinforces something. The object of punishment is the opposite- to discourage a behavior. Negative reinforcement would be like saying- you don't have to do pushups today if you eat your broccoli. What we are talking about here is positive (and perhaps some negative) punishment. Positive means giving something- negative means taking something away. Positive punishment is something like a spanking, and negative punishment is something like not being allowed to watch TV for a week. See the difference?

ANYWAY- back to the point:

I think that both are important for me. Obviously- as a sub, I love rewards, and if it is a good reward I would work very hard to please my Master. On the other hand, I have a tendency to be fiesty and not well behaved in prior relationships, whether because of resentment or what have you. I think a good spanking or slap is a good reminder to behave and treat your Master with respect. However, personally, I am more unhappy to know I have displeased my Master (or in the opposite case, happy that I pleased Him). To me, these are the best encouragements and deterrents- however, throwing in a few rewards and spankings is also a good way to spice things up :-P

[Pearlgem]

If a sub does something wrong and the Master punishes them, it is not negative reinforcement. Negative REINFORCEMENT reinforces something. The object of punishment is the opposite- to discourage a behavior. Negative reinforcement would be like saying- you don't have to do pushups today if you eat your broccoli.

Hmm, not sure that's how I understand negative reinforcement.

I am shy and hate to go to parties.
There is a party to which decide not to go.
I feel better for not having gone because I avoided an excruciating position.
So I reinforced that good feeling through my avoidance.
Or in other words I am negatively reinforcing my avoidance behaviour.
And every time I feel better for avoiding something I don't like, I negatively reinforce that avoidance behaviour.

(Negative reinforcement makes you feel better in the short run, and it's very common but it probably sucks as a long term life strategy.)

[Flaming_Redhead]

So in your opinion what is more effective on you and why?

Corporal punishment is more effective for changing "bad" behavior. A simple scolding doesn't really bring it home to me in the same way that a spanking does. The pain and crying results in my will being softened to the point that what he's saying actually gets through to me. I feel properly chastised, and my response afterwards is positive in that I mean it when I say I'm sorry and won't do it again. Positive reinforcement doesn't have much effect on my behavior. I don't do good deeds with the expectation of a reward. I do nice things for people I care about because it makes them happy, which is its own reward.

[Veralynne]

Pearlgem- your example is giving an example of reinforcing a "bad" behavior- which doesn't really make sense in what we are talking about. Normally, if we are talking about behavioral changes, you would not want to reinforce an unwanted behavior- unless for some reason you wanted to be avoidant. Now that is not to say that your example is not functioning as negative reinforcement- because it is, just not what we are really talking about here [trying to get good behaviors done and bad behaviors avoided]. My example is geared toward another person reinforcing the behavior- because that is what we are generally talking about it. Negative (taking something away) reinforcement (encouraging behavior) = taking something away to reinforce a behavior. It is just like the example I gave with push ups and broccoli (and also similar to your example). If you have to do push ups every day, as part of your regular chores and routine, *taking that burden away* from you (negative) would *encourage* the behavior of eating broccoli (reinforcement). Get it?


P.S. Pearlgem, if the point you are trying to get across is that negative reinforcement is something that reinforces "bad" (aka negative) behaviors, you are mistaken.

[Pearlgem]

I was only making a general point and not trying to be specific in dealing with the discussion in the thread, so yes, I was a little off topic there.
However, nowhere did I talk about 'bad' behaviour, or give any examples of it. I was simply making the point that negative reinforcement is all to do with avoidance - it is not 'bad' behaviour although it may be unhelpful to you in the long run.
'Feel the fear and do it anyway'.