South Dakota's Anti-Aborion Laws

[Warbaby1943]

After reading this entire thread that I just found today I feel I must comment on something I observed.

But first let me say over my life time I have gone both ways on the abortion issue. When I was much younger I felt very strongly one way. Then as I aged I began seeing things from another angle. I'll leave it at because most all my comments have already been stated in this thread.

My observation is this. I found it very interesting that nowhere did I see it mentioned about the male, who did the impregnating, getting a voice in the decision to abort. I also have strong feelings on that but I'll not comment further. I also know in some instances he may not be able to be found but I won't go there now either.

[Warbaby1943]

I apologize if I do a double post but the one I just did did not show up.

I read the entire thread and want to comment on an observation I made.

First let me say that over my lifetime I have been on both sides of the abortion issue. When I was much younger I felt very strongly in favor of abortions but as I aged I became opposed to them as a means of birth control.

My observation. I found it very interesting to note that nowhere in this thread did I see any comments about the male who did the impregnating having a voice in the decision to abort. I know there will be instances where he won't be able to be found but I don't think that will be the majority of the cases. I'm wondering why this aspect has been ignored.

[cheeseburger]

Yes, I do think you have to discipline kids when they fuck up, but I also think that the measures should be more carefully thought out. I don't want to see a kid stealing a candy bar to go to jail, either.

I never implied that people (should) go to jail for stealing candy. Society is far more leniant on child misbehavior than it is on adult misbehavior, and rightly so. But if no one teaches kids some rather basic right-from-wrong-ness, how will they know?

See, that's what I meant when I said that we shouldn't make the decision for or against abortion too easy. I don't want children to go to a clinic without talking to anyone about this, it's irresponsible and I agree that they might not learn a great deal from that.

In an adult situation, if a parent (i'd say about 99% of the time the male) does not wish to be a part of the childs life, then there exist ways of forcing the parent (through a court of law) to pay child support. The mechanisms are all there; I just find it incredibly... horrid? (if thats the right word) that it ever comes to that.

The fact that its females, not males, that have to endure pregnancies is, for better or worse, a biological fact. You can't change it, and if you look back far enough, has had a huge impact on society.

However, if the male in a relationship decides that he isn't going to care for the child, there are mechanisms for forcing him to pay some minimal child support (through a court of law). I find it horrible that it ever comes to that, but as you said there are ways of evening things out somewhat.

Teen pregnancies are just completely... stupid. In every way. Not only does it ruin the life of the mother, but the child is going to have a difficult life; it doesn't say much positive about the father either. (Although the father gets off significantly better, through no doing of his own really). The best way to describe them is sad. And utterly retarded. There is no easy way to deal with them since the problem is about so much more than just abortions.

And Warbaby1943 mentioned that the male has no say in wether an abortion should be done. In the case where the male is a present, and active participant, he should have a big say in if an abortion can be carried out. I don't know enough about the law (and I suspect it differs in states) as to the fathers legal rights with respect to abortions, but good point. If the father dissapears, then who cares what he thinks?

[Aesop]

Okay I finally have some time to reply to this topic.

"My body, my choice"—the catch cry of the women pro abortionists. I used to agree 100% with that, however, the more I think about it, the more this god-like attitude that implies if you created the life you have the right to destroy it, kind of irks me

I get that Alex, but what gives me the right to play God on you? If my wife got pregnant again (please no, please God no ) I would do everything in my power to convince her to have the baby if she didn't want to. I wouldn't try to force her though. How can I? I don't have to go through the potentially life-threatening pregnancy, she does, and if I can't force my wife; how can I possibly say you have to do it?

I just can't help feeling that it's becoming all too acceptable in our society. I guess, to me, overly liberal attitudes towards abortion sometimes have me feeling like a little like we're on the verge of becoming Aldous Huxley's "Brave New World", and that bothers me.

I have to disagree. Individual choice is what keeps us from becoming Alphas and Betas.

Yes, kids do make mistakes. And when they do, you need to discipline them. Why? For their own good. So that later they won't make those mistakes. If you're 12 and you steal a candy bar, you get scolded. If you're 30 and you steal, you get thrown in jail. Better to learn while you're young, wouldn't you agree?

To me thats the whole point. You need to tell kids that, even if they don't understand it, if they do ___ they will face the consequences. Then maybe, when they grow up, they'll realize that yeah, mommy was right. Even if you don't get punished, doing ___ is bad. And meanwhile, they never did ___ because they knew they would get punished if they did.

Returning to abortion, if a kid gets pregnant, goes to an abortion clinic, gets an abortion without telling her parents, she won't know she's done something bad! Heck, it was fun!

I'm sorry cheeseburger, but I have to say I think comparing having a child to discipline your teen is...hell I don't know the right word. I mean I'm trying to picture myself telling my daughter, "No, you are going to have that child and you're going to like it! That's your punishment for fucking. Now go to your room and think about what you did." I really don't think that's the way to go.

Even if I did think that was okay; what kind of life would that be for the child? At some point don't you think the kid would realize that Mommy thinks of him/her as a punishment and not the joy a child should be? Also that's my child having that kid. What am I supposed to do? Throw her out on her ass and make her take care of it herself? No way I'm doing that, so now I'm raising her kid too because she's finishing school and going to college if she wants. I take care of my own. So where's the punishment? Sure I know there are parents out there who would chuck the kid out in the street and tell 'em they deserve it, but what kind of lesson does that teach? That people only care when you don't fuck up? I dunno if that's wise.

One last thing: I've held the hand of three women who have had abortions (not my children, just very close friends who's boyfriends couldn't be bothered) and none of them said to me later, "Heck, that was fun!"

[Alex Bragi]

I have to disagree. Individual choice is what keeps us from becoming Alphas and Betas.

I reiterate, I understand and respect that every case is 'individual', but I'm sorry, I still can't help feeling it's often very much "Big Mother" deciding what's best for everyone concerned--including the father.

You know what else? It seems like a kind of ambivalent hypocrisy, to me, that to end a life at say two to six months gestation is an 'abortion', but once that same life has popped out of his or her mother's womb, two or three months later, to take that same life all of a sudden becomes 'murder'.

I suppose that's the crux of the abortion arguement; when does life become life?

[Aesop]

I suppose that's the crux of the abortion arguement; when does life become life?

I agree, and since I don't feel qualified to answer that I can't see forcing my beliefs on you or anyone else.

I guess my stand here is the same as it is in many places, "What business is it of mine?"

[Weena]

this news piece about the ban (a few weeks old by now), which includes a definition by a Republican senator on 'how bad' someone would need to be raped for him to consider an exemption to the ban

Oh my gosh........I cant believe that someone would actually think that they have the right to decide 'how bad' a rape was to an individual. That is truly a delusive outlook.

[vistana]

This case is of the rarest, and we all know this case would warrent an abortion.

I know that that's a rare case, which is kind of the point. There are people in this thread arguing for abortion rights for people who are already badly enough off to justify it, but not the regular people who do it for convenience. My question was, who gets to decide who is worthy of getting an abortion? The guy I quoted above has been attacked by any number of people for just that reason. Google 'sexist asshat' and he's at the top of the page.

What we are getting at is if your going to have sex, and vistana you have said you are going to. Then you are risking pregenancy, even though you are using condom's and birthcontrol, the chance of getting pregnant using these methods is so incredibly low that it barely warrents concern, yet, it is still there. Since your taking this risk, and know you are taking this risk. Then in my view, if you get pregnant, you should be held accountable for this action.

If I walk outside and get mugged should I be held accountable, since I knew there was a risk when I left the house? Most rapes are committed by people you know. Should I avoid being alone with male friends because the risk is there and by taking that risk I'm assuming responsibility if anything happens?
By that logic we should be held responsible for accidents during any activity that carries a risk (aka everything).

Just cause you say you wouldnt take good enough care of your body during pregnancy, and you don't want to be bothered with the whole process doesn't mean it's the best option. This opinion of yours that you stated is actually the number one reason for abortions today. Also listed on the CDC website I mentioned earlier. To me, this is lazy and irresponsible. Which is why I felt that if someone such as yourself wanted the option of abortion, I would want it to be financially difficult for you to do so. We all know that having a child is going to be finacially difficult, why shouldn't not having one be also?



V/R
ID

As for your argument for making it financially difficult to have an abortion, how is that ever a good idea? Having a child is expensive, so not having a child should also be expensive? That leaves someone in quite a bind for what may have been an accident they had no control over. Going that route is an excellent way to make people turn to other methods, you'd get back-alley abortions and coat-hangers again.
Or was your argument to only penalize those who would abort because they are 'lazy and irresponsible' and not the ones who actually deserve an abortion?
If that's the case, we're right back at the 'who gets to decide' argument.

[_ID_]

who gets to decide'

Even the Anti-abortion activists think that if someone gets raped, that having an abortion will be warranted. You already know the answer to your question. What I was suggesting was to make it difficult for those that are willing to take a calculated risk in getting pregnant.

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ID

[vistana]

Even the Anti-abortion activists think that if someone gets raped, that having an abortion will be warranted. You already know the answer to your question. What I was suggesting was to make it difficult for those that are willing to take a calculated risk in getting pregnant.

V/R
ID

I wasn't aware that pro-lifers as a group necessarily supported abortion in the case of rape. From what I've seen there seems to be a fairly wide-spread stance of 'only if it's necessary to save the mother's life'. Earlier in this thread I posted a quote by a US Senator in South Dakota who stated that only a special class of rape victims, the virginal religious girl, would be deserving of an abortion, since she'd be more traumatised than say an atheist middle-aged divorcee.
The law passed in South Dakota, which was what this thread started out discussing does not have a provision for cases of rape, only for cases where the mother's life would be endangered by carrying the fetus to term (i'm pretty sure, feel free to correct me if I'm wrong).


And no, I don't already know the answer to my question.
Are you proposing that abortion be a financial burden on anyone who became pregnant through consensual sex? Because like I said, that could put poorer women in quite the bind. Can't afford to have a kid, can't afford to not have a kid. They'd be forced into either abstinence (I think unlikely) or black-market abortions. Which I'm sure would spring up if this scenario were to take place.
I'm fairly certain that teen and unexpected pregnancies are more common among lower income brackets (again, I don't have a specific source on this, feel free to tell me if I'm wrong), and a system like this would only make the problem worse.
Wealthy families would have much less of a problem paying the fees, which would create an unfair system where sex has fewer consequences the more money you have.
Or would there be a sliding scale to make sure that everybody had a suitably puishiing fee? i'd love to see somebody try to implement that!

i really don't see how you could make that a practical system at all. And I don't see how it's a good idea at all either.

[mkemse]

I do not recall the State, my apologies for that, but in the last few months, 1 state did pass an Anti-Abortion bill that includes NO ABORTIONS even if the life ofthe mother is at risk, rape or incest, but the bill was passed as a test for the Supreme Court to see if they would over-turn R v W
The fact anyway still remains that abortion is a private familt decision between a husband, wife and their doctor and the governemnt, be it local, state or federal simply has no right interferring with this type of personal descion, the goverment has no right to control the reproductive system of any female in this country (with the possible exception of say an 18 year old say still living with her family) and even then it should be a FAMILY & Medical descion, NOT a goverment descion

[heycarrieanne]

I am very pro-choice, but I think that abortion should be the very last option a woman should use. That being said, I find it very interesting that the so-called "pro-life" people want to force women of all ages to have babies whether they want to or not, then they turn their back on these babies and do not want to help the mother support them. And these same pro-life folks do not want to teach children about birth control, only abstinence. (These are also the same people who allow their 12 year-old daughters to dress up looking like hookers from the Avenue aka Paris Hilton!) High school and apparently some middle school kids are going to fuck -- teach them right from wrong at home and tell them not to have sex until they are older. But also tell them that IF they make the choice to have sex, they should be responsible about it. There is nothing romantic about being knocked up at 15 and having a kid at 16 and missing out on high school and college.

When I was student teaching I saw pregnant girls in high school and it was just wrong because a popular junior girl walking the hallways pregnant just gives a freshman girl the idea of how to be cool. I think the pregnant girl and the guy who knocked up her up should be in a special school away from other students and learning how to be parents along with their regular school work. Teach them skills so they can support themselves when they graduate. Without an education, you will never get ahead, especially if you drop out because you had two kids before you were 17!!

{{climbing down from soapbox}}

[Alex Bragi]

I am very pro-choice, but I think that abortion should be the very last option a woman should use. That being said, I find it very interesting that the so-called "pro-life" people want to force women of all ages to have babies whether they want to or not, then they turn their back on these babies and do not want to help the mother support them. And these same pro-life folks do not want to teach children about birth control, only abstinence. (These are also the same people who allow their 12 year-old daughters to dress up looking like hookers from the Avenue aka Paris Hilton!) High school and apparently some middle school kids are going to fuck -- teach them right from wrong at home and tell them not to have sex until they are older. But also tell them that IF they make the choice to have sex, they should be responsible about it. There is nothing romantic about being knocked up at 15 and having a kid at 16 and missing out on high school and college.

Woh! You've made some very broad and sweeping statements there about pro-choicers. I certainly tend towards being one, yet very little, if any, of what you say here applies to me. I think there will always be varying degrees within any moral philosophy, therefore we can't assume everyone is the same, regardless of what 'labels' we tag them with.

I have various reason's for my feelings. Most are private, but I can tell you a good friend of mine's mother gave birth to her just two months short of her seventeen birthday, and you know, I'm kind of glad she did.

[Warbaby1943]

I have various reason's for my feelings. Most are private, but I can tell you a good friend of mine's mother gave birth to her just two months short of her seventeen birthday, and you know, I'm kind of glad she did.

I think there are exceptions to every rule but over all I think most would agree that 16 is way too young to be having children. At 16 they are still a child themselves. That doesn't mean I believe that abortion should be used as a means of birth control.

[heycarrieanne]

Actually Alex, I made a lot of broad statements about pro-life people, not pro-choice people. I just believe that a woman knows what is best for her and it should be HER decision to make, she should not be forced into having a baby before she is ready to handle the responsibility for taking care of another human being. I can barely take care of my cat, I cannot imagine being a parent!

[Alex Bragi]

Sorry, that was my error, I meant to type 'pro-lifers' which is what I tend to be.

[heycarrieanne]

While my soapbox is still out, I will say how offended I am (in general--not anyone in specific here) by the use of the term "pro-life." Just because someone believes a woman has the right to choose, does that make them "pro-death"? No, it does not. I personally believe that abortion is the absolute last choice a woman should make, but it is HER choice! I do believe that birth control needs to be taught and explained in schools so that they are informed--boys as well as girls.

[Alex Bragi]

While my soapbox is still out, I will say how offended I am (in general--not anyone in specific here) by the use of the term "pro-life." Just because someone believes a woman has the right to choose, does that make them "pro-death"? No, it does not. I personally believe that abortion is the absolute last choice a woman should make, but it is HER choice! I do believe that birth control needs to be taught and explained in schools so that they are informed--boys as well as girls.

Well, since I choose to call myself a "pro-lifer" (of sorts) this may possibly directed at me, so 'll answer here.

I'm sorry you feel 'offended', heycarrieanne. That certainly has not been my intention in use of that word.

I don't live in the States, but here in Australia, I have never heard the expression "pro-death' used in conjuction with abortion.

I wish to make it clear that I believe my opinions are just that. I release not everyone shares my "opinions", and particularly on this topic, but that's life (please, excuse that dreadful pun).

I reiterate, I have my reasons for said opinions, but no wish to share them here.

I would also like to reiterate a part of one of my previous posts to this thread: "Please, I do realise and understand that there will always be circumstances where abortion is the only option, as cheeseburger has already pointed out, but I just can't help feeling that it's becoming all too acceptable in our society."

From my point of view, this has been an interesting thread and I've appreciated the respectful and insightful way it's been dealt with it on both sides.

[Warbaby1943]

Well, since I choose to call myself a "pro-lifer" (of sorts) this may possibly directed at me, so 'll answer here.

I'm sorry you feel 'offended', heycarrieanne. That certainly has not been my intention in use of that word.

I don't live in the States, but here in Australia, I have never heard the expression "pro-death' used in conjuction with abortion.

I wish to make it clear that I believe my opinions are just that. I release not everyone shares my "opinions", and particularly on this topic, but that's life (please, excuse that dreadful pun).

I reiterate, I have my reasons for said opinions, but no wish to share them here.

I would also like to reiterate a part of one of my previous posts to this thread: "Please, I do realise and understand that there will always be circumstances where abortion is the only option, as cheeseburger has already pointed out, but I just can't help feeling that it's becoming all too acceptable in our society."

From my point of view, this has been an interesting thread and I've appreciated the respectful and insightful way it's been dealt with it on both sides.

Alex,
I agree with everything you say that is defined in this post. Don't know beyond what I read but I do leave room for rape and incest to be able to play the abortion card. That is it in my opinion.

[_ID_]

Sorry about not responding sooner, I was not at a loction I was able to access the internet.

When I indicated that it should be finacially difficult, I ment difficult. Not impossible. For instance, a woman who is on welfare, no income other than that. Her abortion would be far less expensive than say the college teen who has daddies money to take care of things. I think women should have to think about what they are doing rather than gamble with getting pregnant and dealing with it when it happens. Rape victims are another case entirely, and I feel that their abortion case would not require any funding at all. Rather be supplemented by the government, same as if she had the baby, and ended up on welfare because she couldnt get an abortion.

V/R
ID

[Warbaby1943]

When I indicated that it should be finacially difficult, I ment difficult. Not impossible. For instance, a woman who is on welfare, no income other than that. Her abortion would be far less expensive than say the college teen who has daddies money to take care of things.
V/R
ID

Do you really believe a girl's father should be responsible for his college student's abortion? I'm sure many daddies would help but they should not be forced to do so. When do adults become adults and be responsible for their own actions?

[heycarrieanne]

I didn't mean you, Alex! Everyone is entitled to their views and I respect that. But I also believe that one group of people should not be allowed to force their beliefs on another group. Part of the problem is that the various anti-abortion groups (is that better than pro-lifers?) tend to put out publications that lie. The numbers of abortions are not nearly as high as what they make them out to be. Many clinics are not just used for abortions, they are also used by women for annual check-ups and other gyn issues. The anti-abortion groups track these numbers and say that anyone who walks into a clinic that performs abortions is having an abortion, when in fact, they are not.

This is such a hot topic, I almost hate to discuss it. But, that being said -- how could anyone believe that a 14-year-old girl who has been raped should be forced to have that baby!

[_ID_]

Do you really believe a girl's father should be responsible for his college student's abortion? When do adults become adults and be responsible for their own actions?

I didnt say they were responsible, I said they took care of things. Pay for the car, pay for the credit card, pay for the books... and so on. And when she gets into trouble, they pay for that too. This would be considered an income for the girl, and if reported on taxes correctly would reflect in the amount the girl was required to finance to have the abortion.

I never said my idea was perfect either, was just an idea, a suggestion. Able to be changed added to, or taken away to optimize it. So if you see fault with what I have suggested. Thats fine, but don't critizise without having a solution.

V/R
ID

[heycarrieanne]

My aunt still talks about a girl she knew in high school whose parents sent her TWICE to Europe for abortions! And about her best friend who thought she was pregnant (this was in the early 1970s) and her sister's friend told her that if she took a whole pack of birth control pills, she would miscarry. It worked but ... she also could have died from complications. My aunt, a good Catholic girl, said she is glad that abortion is legal because of all the girls who died getting butchered from back-alley abortionists.

[Warbaby1943]

I didnt say they were responsible, I said they took care of things. Pay for the car, pay for the credit card, pay for the books... and so on. And when she gets into trouble, they pay for that too. This would be considered an income for the girl, and if reported on taxes correctly would reflect in the amount the girl was required to finance to have the abortion.

I never said my idea was perfect either, was just an idea, a suggestion. Able to be changed added to, or taken away to optimize it. So if you see fault with what I have suggested. Thats fine, but don't critizise without having a solution.

V/R
ID

Sorry you took my comment as criticism. It was only an observation from what I read in your post. Truly not criticizing your ideas. I only know I for one wouldn't want to be held responsible for my kids fucking up. Especially if if they were of the age of reasoning.

[DungeonMaster6]

Just want to ad something to what carrieanne said. I'm also pro-choice. That that does not mean that I'm a baby killer, which the pro-life groups like to perpetuate.

Roe v Wade was all about who's choice it should be, whether to have an abortion or not. The Supreme Court said it's the mother's and not the Government, and I agree with that.

[_ID_]

Sorry you took my comment as criticism. It was only an observation from what I read in your post. Truly not criticizing your ideas. I only know I for one wouldn't want to be held responsible for my kids fucking up. Especially if if they were of the age of reasoning.

I agree with you, I wouldnt want to be held responsible for my childs actions either. But I bet it happens in other situations not related to this one.

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[wingsofanangel]

Just a reminder:

Keep it friendly and respect one another

This is a touchy subject... don't want any feelings getting hurt.
Thanks guys.

Sera (anya)

[Alex Bragi]

Just a reminder:

Keep it friendly and respect one another

This is a touchy subject... don't want any feelings getting hurt.
Thanks guys.

Sera (anya)

Huh? Did I miss something here? It all looks very civil and orderly to me.

[wingsofanangel]

I was just putting that in there... I didn't jump on anyone.. just a bit earlier it appeared a few people might have been getting feelings hurt or confused. Only wanted to remind everyone to keep it friendly... no harm in that.

Sera (anya)