New York Times Political Cartoon

[DuncanONeil]

And my guess is the longer the GOP does stuff like this, the longer it will take them to regain power in either Congress or the White House
And Micheal Steele, the new RNC National Chairmen siad just last week, that the GOP needs to Change or Adjust it's Platform to be more Current and updated or the GOP will continue to loose elections
And how "ironic" is it, and NO slight is meant bythis that he is chosen after Obama is Inuagrated, and Stelle happens to be Black, first time ever for the RNC just likw the forst time eer for Presdient
To many old time GOPers stil in office who will neevr change their stand on issues

Does stuff like what? Gop change stand on issues? You mean like the Democrats, ahem, "change" their position?

[DuncanONeil]

Polls on this are all over the place from 90% against to 60% in favor. With some numbers in between of 68% against and 37% and 51% in favor. The bigger piece of information is what are the questions asked. Meaning are the people in favor of "a stimulus" or in favor of the reckless manner in which this has been crafted with all its give aways?

[DuncanONeil]

I agree it simpy was not needed

The very same thing can be said of all political cartoons!

[DuncanONeil]

Thorne,

I know you are being honest about not seeing it, your posts have always been respectful disagreement and not inflammatory. And I know sometimes my posts can seem strident. I don't intend that.


Two points: The getting their face in the news, opportunistic posturing cuts both ways. Limbaugh, O'Reilly and the Fox crew, as well as the Editor of the Post, have downplayed this issue and inflated others to ridiculous status.

And second, there are those of us that DO see it and are disturbed by the implications. ANd my worry are the nutjobs out there. For example, the madman that shot up the Unitarian church to kill Liberal Leaders.

If we see it there is some nutjob out there that will see it, and my fear is him acting upon it. And I think if I say or do something that can be misconstrued, whether I mean it or not. I WILL feel obligated to apologize for that. I think a LOT of racism and violence is subconscious these days.

Just my thought on the issue. I truly believe there are people out there waiting for something to justify their insanity to the point of acting on it. And Limbaugh, The Post and any of Murdoch's holdings, have straddled the line in inciting these dangerous folk.

Your comments regarding "nut jobs" is more of the kind of thing that decides that people are not responsible for their own actions. People see what they want to see in any image, or comment. The true facts is that people see in comments and images their own personal understanding of the world rather than that actually presented.

[DuncanONeil]

That's what they do. How they make their livings. The really sad thing is that there are, apparently, so many who are willing to let these people do their thinking for them. I can never understand how someone could be proud to be called a "dittohead!"[/QUOTE]

If that is truely the case how is that more violent action comes from the left side of the spectrum than the right?

[Thorne]

If that is truely the case how is that more violent action comes from the left side of the spectrum than the right?

Who said anything about violent action? I was merely talking about those individuals who seem content to let so-called celebrities (many of whom have criminal records of one sort or another) determine what is right for them. That goes for political topics as well as fashion statements.

[Belgarold]

That's what they do. How they make their livings. The really sad thing is that there are, apparently, so many who are willing to let these people do their thinking for them. I can never understand how someone could be proud to be called a "dittohead!"

If that is truely the case how is that more violent action comes from the left side of the spectrum than the right?[/QUOTE]

And where do you get the information that more violent action comes from the left than the right. Could you please justify your opinions with something like a fact or something.

You seem to wish to be inflammatory and making unjustifiable accusations. We are trying to have a civil discussion here.

[DuncanONeil]

Ok Thorne! Did not come across that way.

[DuncanONeil]

If that is truely the case how is that more violent action comes from the left side of the spectrum than the right?

And where do you get the information that more violent action comes from the left than the right. Could you please justify your opinions with something like a fact or something.

You seem to wish to be inflammatory and making unjustifiable accusations. We are trying to have a civil discussion here.[/QUOTE]

First of all the quote attributed to me is not something I would ever say. I would never use the term "dittohead"

As for violent action from the left, that is a matter of observation.

Why should I bother further to provide you and supportive data when you refuse to do the very same thing. Also when data is provided you simply pretend it is either Whole Cloth or does not exist. Perhaps I should then accuse you of resorting to calling names.

It has become apparent that you are not worth my time nor effort. It appears that you have no inclination to consider anything that does not fit into your preconceived world view.

[Belgarold]

As for violent action from the left, that is a matter of observation.

Why should I bother further to provide you and supportive data when you refuse to do the very same thing. Also when data is provided you simply pretend it is either Whole Cloth or does not exist. Perhaps I should then accuse you of resorting to calling names.

It has become apparent that you are not worth my time nor effort. It appears that you have no inclination to consider anything that does not fit into your preconceived world view.

LOL. Yep, I didn't think you had any support for your position. And I HAVE supported my statements. I just did not support them with evidence that YOU like, so you son't seem to see it. Please stop trying to incite.

I get that you don;t agree with me, but unsubstantiated quotes and incitements do not change my opinion. THorne and the others in this thread are having a fairly civil debate. I am going to try to say this respectfully. You do not seem capable of doing so. Instead of providing support for what amount to opinions you turn around and want to "take your ball and go home." That is fine. But do NOT suppose that makes you right. You should read your last paragraph and apply it to yourself. You have a view that you cannot substantiate and I don't agree with you. BUt you take that as a personal affront.

I don't agree with Thorne on everything. But I respect him and will listen to him and we may not change each other's opinions but we will still, hopefully, respect each other.

AND the quote is NOT yours. It was from Thorne, and I disrespected him by attributing it to you, it was an editing error. I apologize to Thorne and you.

[Dr_BuzzCzar]

As for violent action from the left, that is a matter of observation.

Why should I bother further to provide you and supportive data when you refuse to do the very same thing.

Just for fun let's take the U.S. over the last 50 years.

Here's a few that I recall.

Right-Wing Extremist Violence:
Murder of Emmit Till
Attack on peaceful lunch counter sit-ins in NC, GA, MS.
Murder of Medgar Evers
Fire bombing of black churches in MS, AL, GA by KKK
Attacks on "Freedom Riders" (volunteers registering blacks to vote in the south.
Birmingham, Ala., Commissioner of Public Safety Eugene "Bull" Connor uses fire hoses and police dogs on peaceful black demonstrators.
Murder of Four young girls (Denise McNair, Cynthia Wesley, Carole Robertson, and Addie Mae Collins) attending Sunday school.
James E. Chaney, 21; Andrew Goodman, 21; and Michael Schwerner, 24, had been working to register black voters in Mississippi and were murdered.
Selma, AL - Fifty non-violent marchers are hospitalized after police use tear gas, whips, and clubs against them.
Martin Luther King is murdered.

In the U.S., violence directed toward abortion providers has killed at least 7 people, including 3 doctors, 2 clinic employees, a security guard, and a clinic escort.

According to statistics gathered by the National Abortion Federation (NAF), an organization of abortion providers, since 1977 there have been 17 attempted murders, 383 death threats, 153 incidents of assault or battery, and 3 kidnappings committed against abortion providers.

Bombing of Murrah Federal building claimed 168 lives and left over 800 people injured.

Cites:
http://www.factmonster.com/spot/civi...timeline1.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-abortion_violence
http://www2.indystar.com/library/fac...ombing/ok.html

[Belgarold]

Thanks Dr. BuzzCzar. You embarrass me for my laziness in not finding these. Great work. Thank you for your post.

[Belgarold]

And even though Bush was destroying this country I heard of no one proposing violence. But during the campaign, assassination and violence was implied against Obama a few times. And even more recently Alan Keyes has said, "Something must be done about Obama." Implying something violent. "Joe the Plumber" was implying proposing using the military against Congressmen and women, maybe it was in jest. But that stuff 'ain't funny.'

Now the good Dr's post was well-cited. But this is like your, uh, support. observation. Who have you seen on the left proposing violence? I truly would like to know.

[DuncanONeil]

"LOL. Yep, I didn't think you had any support for your position."

Bull hockey. I gave you facts and figures and you just said they were fake. Didn't show they were fake, just said they were. Anytime I gave you anything you did not like you just pretended it did not exist. You claim you support your position but all you have is sound bites. The inability to engage in a reasoned debate is why you have been cut off not the inability on one of us to engage!

[DuncanONeil]

Ok then you want to accept radical personages that have attacked either specific individuals or entities and ascribe all of that to the entire conservative spectrum?
There are over the top radicals in every grouping. Timothy McVeigh does not speak for me as I presume Greenpeace trying to sink a ship at sea does not speak for you. This I hold true in all cases; Hamas, hezbollah, and al Queada do not speak for the Arab that owns a business here in my town.
That being said many actions taken by the "radical" right, "radical" left, "radical" environmentalist, and "radical" Islamists are wrong actions.

[Belgarold]

"LOL. Yep, I didn't think you had any support for your position."

Bull hockey. I gave you facts and figures and you just said they were fake. Didn't show they were fake, just said they were. Anytime I gave you anything you did not like you just pretended it did not exist. You claim you support your position but all you have is sound bites. The inability to engage in a reasoned debate is why you have been cut off not the inability on one of us to engage!

Okay a few things:

When have I been 'cut off'?

Please show me your posts that showed facts and figures, if I missed them I would like to see them and I will apologize.

And where have I ignored these facts. Again, if I have done as you said, I will apologize.

Now I will admit Dr. BuzzCzar was VERY complete in his citations and I have, admittedly been lazier and just noted a few incidents, but they are NOT just 'sound bites.' And I truthfully cannot see any facts, any citations to support your views. I would love to see them, if you have.

Now I am going to try not to get into a baseless argument with you (I think I am already too deep into that area now) but I AM having a reasoned argument with others.

Please explain your accusations.

[Dr_BuzzCzar]

Ok then you want to accept radical personages that have attacked either specific individuals or entities and ascribe all of that to the entire conservative spectrum?
There are over the top radicals in every grouping. Timothy McVeigh does not speak for me as I presume Greenpeace trying to sink a ship at sea does not speak for you. This I hold true in all cases; Hamas, hezbollah, and al Queada do not speak for the Arab that owns a business here in my town.
That being said many actions taken by the "radical" right, "radical" left, "radical" environmentalist, and "radical" Islamists are wrong actions.

Your original point was that there was more violence from the left side of the political spectrum than from the right. You asked for specifics and proof. I gave you some actions that can be charged to right wing extremists. Since you seemed sure of your point I was expecting a similar list of violence perpetuated by left-wing extremists. To me any violent action by either side would be wrong and has no place in political efforts. I was simply giving you what you asked for as I don't agree with your premise regarding violent acts. In my admittedly less than humble opinion you're wrong and I think the facts back me up.

[Dr_BuzzCzar]

Thanks Dr. BuzzCzar. You embarrass me for my laziness in not finding these. Great work. Thank you for your post.

I left out what was done to union organizers and members, AIM (native Americans), The Orangeburg Massacre, Kent State, etc etc. The list is much longer once you start thinking about it. There's been violence from the left as well, although I believe it to be much less than the reactionary right has perpetrated.

Thank you.

[DuncanONeil]

It appears that the facts I had in mind are largely in another thread but these were included in this one.
" DuncanONeil
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Polls on this are all over the place from 90% against to 60% in favor. With some numbers in between of 68% against and 37% and 51% in favor. The bigger piece of information is what are the questions asked. Meaning are the people in favor of "a stimulus" or in favor of the reckless manner in which this has been crafted with all its give aways? "

[DuncanONeil]

Greenpeace actions at sea!

[DuncanONeil]

"much less than the reactionary right has perpetrated."

And here you make my point that violence comes from small extremist fringe. But you choose to use that to paint with a much larger brush.

[Dr_BuzzCzar]

"much less than the reactionary right has perpetrated."

And here you make my point that violence comes from small extremist fringe. But you choose to use that to paint with a much larger brush.

No, I don't make your point. You are simply trying to change the point to something that can be defended. Your original point was there was more violence from the left than the right. I listed violence from the right, you've done nothing to back up your assertion. I will take that lack of response as proof you are wrong and accept your apology.

[steelish]

Bummer. My original reactive post to this thread was wiped out in the library crash. So...here is a re-post, although I don't think I will remember word for word what I originally said. (It will be very similar though, my thoughts on the matter have not changed).


Does it matter what the intent of the cartoonist is? If his/her intent was to imply racism, then everyone who reacts in that manner has lent weight to the cartoonist's work. The way we react is what matters.

For myself, the reaction was that an idiot wrote the stimulus package (which I agree with). My thought was of intelligence and common sense, NOT race.

Oh, and btw - Obama wasn't the one who wrote the stimulus package!