Education... where is it these days?

[angelic.zest]

But probably wouldn't be allowed in a system that was trying to teach a set of standards.

We're lucky to have an open forum here. I will forever argue against teaching standardized definitions. Anyone who wishes to do so should start a private club dedicated to their own ideals. Many do so. Many find safe haven in such places too. A fine idea which I approve of. It's just not a good idea here... in my opinion.

Maybe it doesnt have to be a set of rules, regulations, but more like what to look for in a submissive, what to look for in a dominant. What redflags to watch out for, when doing your search. There are also alot of people mostly subbies who get that "subbie fenzy" and i was one of them. Who will go and play with a few doms, let a few smack on their asses and what not but have alittle reguard for their heart/well being(i do have some common sense). Those people going from online world to real life, nothing beats real life and we all know this but alot of people arent able to just make that jump straight away. So when they are able its good to have someone to talk with, to have a sounding board.
Anyway, maybe not a strict set of rules, regulations, etc but something where people have a sounding board like the womb is to hopefully many of the females here.

[The Lord Winter]

No, when ANYTHING is forced it ceases to be consensual. This again is the crux of the fault with your thinking. Until you understand that, you will not come to understand how people can define the same words and ideas so very differently.

Oh? Perhaps that is how so many criminals get out of rape because of the confusion on the consent issue? I have to continue to disagree here.

Willing consent cannot exist without trust.

Don't believe me? Ask a virgin who got talked out of her pants on prom night when just a few hours before, she'd been adamant on maintaining that virginity as a gift for her groom on the first night of the honeymoon, and went on to regret that decision for the rest of her life because of a smooth talking young man. That is a fine example of coerced consent.

For an example of forced consent we need only look to cases of ransom. It takes consent of the account holder to remove funds from the bank, funds that would not be touched under normal circumstances. Yet the parents who find themselves in the situation give consent to not only withdraw the money, but hand it over to the kidnappers in that situation because no other option is available to them... thus it is forced.

No, trust is the most important aspect of any relationship, bar none. Love cannot exist without it, and nor can the concept of Willing Consent. When trust fails in a marriage, divorce soon follows. Ask a spouse who's been a victim of marital infidelity.

Do your homework on the terms, my friend. I'll be waiting patiently.

That is your definition and yours alone. It is not how I nor my slave define our relationship. Again, hence the reason your idea is faulted from the very beginning.

Seems like you haven't studied Gorean slave psychology very much. Gorean slaves are expected to exist solely for their master's pleasure. Their wants and needs are a secondary consideration, if a consideration at all. And there are slaves that absolutely THRIVE on this kind of treatment. Does it make my idea faulted just because it doesn't match up with yours when I put it out there, absolutely not. What it shows is that my definitions of submissive and slave are illustrations of the complete spectrum from a view of the opposing poles. Then we can fill in the gaps by identifying all the combinations that fall in between.

Since you opened the door by labeling my ideas as faulted, I believe I shall reciprocate in kind by labeling yours as short-sighted. That, in and of itself is a sad thing, when one considers that the responsibility of every Dom and Master is not to understand just their own sub or slave, but to understand the entire spectrum so that they may not only identify the needs of their charge, but help them grow beyond their preconceived notions and limits.

Then we will have to agree to disagree. We see things differently, and that's my point.

Seems that we have reached an accord on that point.

Like I said, some people want the wrap around.

Interesting that you would advocate safe practices, then turn around and defend unsafe practices in a follow-up response.

[_ID_]

IDCrewDawg: "That is your definition and yours alone. It is not how I nor my slave define our relationship. Again, hence the reason your idea is faulted from the very beginning."


So LW's opinions are to be faulted because they do not match yours? They may not match mine either but to me, that does not make them faulted, only different. In this case there is no "right" and "wrong". That in and of itself is the beauty of a relationship as they are all unique and dependent many factors.

Not his opinions. His idea of making definitions to go by, so that new people can be educated. As you pointed out, everyone's relationship is unique, and that is what I was trying to convey to him. It is the very reason his notion is faulted, not his opinion.

[Guera]

I think several of the posters on this thread should be spanked.

[StormKat]

How can we educate others who are coming into the lifestyle, a lifestyle that may be completely alien to them, by throwing the most profound concepts at the youngsters all at once. We often leave them more confused than when they started.

I think you may be both generalizing & patronizing newcomers to this site with your statement. First, many of them are not "youngsters" at all but older adults looking for new experiences or answers to questions. Second, they are adults, who should all be capable of - and responsible for - making their own decisions. There are many confusing things in BDSM, both for the new and for those with experience. But in many cases, those things cannot be directly taught by another; seeking information, followed by a lot of introspection, may be a better approach for true understanding.

How can we be satisfied explaining simply that there is a difference between a submissive and a slave, and leave it at that?

I don't view that as a simple distinction at all - and it's a very individual definition. Everyone must determine for himself or herself where they fall within the submission/dominance spectrum. It's not something that can be imposed from outside but is a reflection of the individual's nature. It's also not a static phenomenon, changing over time, with the situation, or with one's partners.

It is time to introduce the newcomers to the basics FIRST, before we throw them into the deeper waters. We in the online community are being watched by the true Old-Schoolers out there, and as such, if we want their participation, we cannot allow ourselves to be found wanting or we will remain alone.

What do you propose are "the basics" newcomers should be taught? Who will determine what the curriculum will contain? There is no one right way within BDSM - whose opinion will be elevated to the level of fact that all newcomers must learn? Also, these "true old-schoolers" you refer to that will judge us & find us wanting - why does their opinion matter? If they do things differently, that is certainly their right. But it doesn't impose any obligation on the behavior of others who choose to learn differently.

I personally would find it confining to be told there is a single set of lessons to be learned or rules to be followed. I am an individual, an adult with my own opinions, who formed my understanding of BDSM by engaging various people & integrating different points of view into my own personal philosophy. It may not be right for everyone but it works well for me. Why shouldn't other newcomers ask questions, be presented with information & come to their own conclusions without having to follow a prescribed course of study?

[The Lord Winter]

The fault, imo, is that LW faults all of us first for not agreeing with his opinion. Your logic is fallacious because the order of posting lends no priority to who is opining and who is claiming fault. LW gives us a "hard and fast" set of definitions and defends them as correct. That means he espouses them as truth, not opionion, and that means Dawg's statement of fault is in fact, correct. Now I personally don't agree with much that Dawg espouses, but there is rarely an arguement because he is clearly professing his opinions and not proposing a set of truths to be universally adopted.

My very first arguments with Sir Russell and others, (mostly resolved now) all revolve around their offering up such definitions and professing them as absolute and irrefutable... all of which left me "outside" of the lifestyle.

First come the titles and labels, next come your kinks. What will happen if someone says your particular kink (whatever it might be) is out of bounds, too dangerous, or not to be "permitted" by good kinksters everywhere... because invariably, that comes next.

Oz, perhaps you should read my original post very carefully. I clearly stated in said post that I was questioning the lack of organized education on the site. Granted, I used examples, but others on the board made the discussion into what it is, a debate upon definitions, by questioning my examples specifically, and attempting to shoot down the entire notion of ANY education based upon a handful of examples that I myself chose to use instead of looking at the broader picture that I painted with my carefully chosen words.

As for the notion of difficulty in a consensus that you referred to earlier... I'll gladly concede that it WILL be difficult. I'll also counter that with the point that no thorough consensus is ever reached without difficulty. It requires much time, thought, effort, and discussion. As to the potential impossibility of it? Things are only impossible because we choose to believe them to be.

The definitions themselves, of course I'm going to defend my own beliefs. Would you do any less?

As for fault, the only thing I'm faulting anyone here for is being complacent, and not giving more back to the community by attempting to take a greater role in an already great site.

[Guera]

Lord Winter, how do you know what is the role, that people here take?

[_ID_]

Oh? Perhaps that is how so many criminals get out of rape because of the confusion on the consent issue? I have to continue to disagree here.

Willing consent cannot exist without trust.

Don't believe me? Ask a virgin who got talked out of her pants on prom night when just a few hours before, she'd been adamant on maintaining that virginity as a gift for her groom on the first night of the honeymoon, and went on to regret that decision for the rest of her life because of a smooth talking young man. That is a fine example of coerced consent.

For an example of forced consent we need only look to cases of ransom. It takes consent of the account holder to remove funds from the bank, funds that would not be touched under normal circumstances. Yet the parents who find themselves in the situation give consent to not only withdraw the money, but hand it over to the kidnappers in that situation because no other option is available to them... thus it is forced.

No, trust is the most important aspect of any relationship, bar none. Love cannot exist without it, and nor can the concept of Willing Consent. When trust fails in a marriage, divorce soon follows. Ask a spouse who's been a victim of marital infidelity.

Do your homework on the terms, my friend. I'll be waiting patiently.





Seems like you haven't studied Gorean slave psychology very much. Gorean slaves are expected to exist solely for their master's pleasure. Their wants and needs are a secondary consideration, if a consideration at all. And there are slaves that absolutely THRIVE on this kind of treatment. Does it make my idea faulted just because it doesn't match up with yours when I put it out there, absolutely not. What it shows is that my definitions of submissive and slave are illustrations of the complete spectrum from a view of the opposing poles. Then we can fill in the gaps by identifying all the combinations that fall in between.

Since you opened the door by labeling my ideas as faulted, I believe I shall reciprocate in kind by labeling yours as short-sighted. That, in and of itself is a sad thing, when one considers that the responsibility of every Dom and Master is not to understand just their own sub or slave, but to understand the entire spectrum so that they may not only identify the needs of their charge, but help them grow beyond their preconceived notions and limits.




Seems that we have reached an accord on that point.




Interesting that you would advocate safe practices, then turn around and defend unsafe practices in a follow-up response.

I am going to cease debating with you. Why? Because you refuse to see the fallacy of your proposal. I don't espouse that my ideas are the best, are the most correct. They are mine, and I subscribe to them because that's what I want.

On the point of preaching safety. I didn't. I said teach different methods and ideas. A wrap-around is risky sure, but some people want them. The point was that people have differing techniques, some of them very risky. Explaining the different methods, and letting the person decide for themselves what it is they want is the point. Being the SSC police is as wrong as being the definition police. I'm sorry you can't seem to grasp that concept.

On the notion of gorean slaves. It's a fantasy world that can't be subscribed to as the books are written. The removal of consensual relationships (as is written in the books) ceases to be a relationship. And as you pointed out, removes the trust that might have been.

Be well, and hopefully your mentor can teach you some of things I was unable to.

[Ozme52]

....

[denuseri]

Well I for one now know where not to go for any additonal training or education. Especially about Gor or what it means to me to be a slave. Winks.

The Japanese have a very nice statement when it comes to such things.....

"Absorb what is of use, cast out that which is not"

Personally I think this site has been doing an incredible job in the education and training departments. Especially compared to other sites on the web!

We have plenty of experienced people who are regular posters in this forum who have helped a lot of prospective, novice, and intermediate practicioners of the arts of bdsm. (Heck my guess is even some of the OS people may even have learned a thing or two themselves, maby even disproved the old adage about new tricks)

Quality trumps over quanity imho anyway.

I learned a lot here myself by reading here in the forums, chatting and following the wonderful examples of those I consider to be worthy as my mentors. I would make a list here but you all know who you are (Looks up at a couple of them and smiles).

I guess the op didnt realize this since he is so new to the site in general and hasnt participated in the forums himself until quite recently.

I think we have all the bases covered that can be covered and still make the site an open and welcoming enviroment: between the tasking society, the womb, the great staff here and the sancturary as well as other user controled groups and the bdsm information packed sections of the forums> especially when it comes to educating and protecting new people.

If one is here seeking knowledge, there is more than an abundance of it waiting at their finger tips, and lots of knowledgeble people are practically standing at the ready to offer their help in finding it if one gets lost in their search (just look at all the links and cross links given to those who ask previously asked questions)

In any event, its one thing to sit back and ask what everyone else is doing, its another thing to do something yourself to contribute. Of course one may find if their contribution needs work or is lacking that, there are lots of people waiting to help one with that as well.

I would like to thank the OP for starting the thread, (even if I obviously disagree with most of his other opinions so far) but I would much rather like to hear from everyone (the OP included) as to what they think we should purpose to the staff and or the communitty in general to be done that would improve upon the sites allready extensive work as well as the countless individual efforts in the forums and chat that would be better or more effective "specifically" as opposed to scuabbeling over who is right or wrong about their ideas of what this or that is.

[The Lord Winter]

I think you may be both generalizing & patronizing newcomers to this site with your statement. First, many of them are not "youngsters" at all but older adults looking for new experiences or answers to questions. Second, they are adults, who should all be capable of - and responsible for - making their own decisions. There are many confusing things in BDSM, both for the new and for those with experience. But in many cases, those things cannot be directly taught by another; seeking information, followed by a lot of introspection, may be a better approach for true understanding.

While I can see that my statement could lead someone to believe that, I was speaking more in terms of a person's time in the lifestyle. Granted, in my time here, I've seen a lot of people in the age range of 18-24. That's a lot of new blood in the lifestyle. Now, one can reasonably argue that most of these young people are not sexually naive, and largely be correct. There will even be people in the 25-40 age range and up who are so as well, though arguably fewer in number the higher up that scale that you go. The point is that if we don't lay out the fundamentals of our lifestyle to them and teach them what to expect from a competent other (insert whatever opposite role you wish here), then they face a greater risk of becoming prey for many of the mentally and physically abusive predators that seem to find safe haven in our lifestyle.

In doing this, we can avoid some of the confusion that you mentioned, and through espousing a core philosophy of practice, we can direct people to the proper information for them that suits their particular level of experience without leaving them with a feeling of being overwhelmed.

I don't view that as a simple distinction at all - and it's a very individual definition. Everyone must determine for himself or herself where they fall within the submission/dominance spectrum. It's not something that can be imposed from outside but is a reflection of the individual's nature. It's also not a static phenomenon, changing over time, with the situation, or with one's partners.

Yet, even in agreeing to disagree, are we to disagree blindly and flail against each other in futility? Or can we not set at least a baseline from which we begin to differ and thus, gain a stronger understanding of the other's position?

What do you propose are "the basics" newcomers should be taught? Who will determine what the curriculum will contain? There is no one right way within BDSM - whose opinion will be elevated to the level of fact that all newcomers must learn? Also, these "true old-schoolers" you refer to that will judge us & find us wanting - why does their opinion matter? If they do things differently, that is certainly their right. But it doesn't impose any obligation on the behavior of others who choose to learn differently.

A core philosophy, that would give someone a baseline from which to gauge the intensity of their own needs and their individual Dom/sub nature, would be essential. From there, it would be instruction on safe practices when meeting someone, and a set of basic warning signs that would give clear and early indicators of whether the person they were meeting warranted more careful scrutiny. Individual mentoring would be encouraged so that others could pair up with like minds and learn more intricate and detailed aspects of the lifestyle in ways that tutorials on a webpage could never teach. I could continue, but this should give you a general idea.

As for why the OS'ers opinions should matter... why would you cast aside decades of experience out of hand, when all it would take is a simple effort to show that we are not the immature, single-minded hedonists we appear to be at times, to get their attention and perhaps even bring them into the discussion and teach us some of what they have learned in all their R/t experiences. I for one, would cherish such an opportunity, and am thankful to have one such OS'er as my mentor.

I personally would find it confining to be told there is a single set of lessons to be learned or rules to be followed. I am an individual, an adult with my own opinions, who formed my understanding of BDSM by engaging various people & integrating different points of view into my own personal philosophy. It may not be right for everyone but it works well for me. Why shouldn't other newcomers ask questions, be presented with information & come to their own conclusions without having to follow a prescribed course of study?

It is not about telling anyone that there is a single set of lessons. But a consensus on the baseline can and should be reached, both for Dom's and Masters, subs and slaves alike. We should all seek to understand more than just our own views. This puts us in a less judgmental and more educated position when dealing with our peers.

As I said in my first post, it isn't that the effort is not present on the site, it's that it is misguided. Now, I'm not belittling the effort put forth already, with my words. But the point is, how would you go into a real library and find anything without the organization that it enjoys? I understand that it is a tall order to request of the staff, and it is not a request that I make at all, not for that kind of organization. However, links get posted all the time on the site, yet I see very few of them get collected into stickies. For instance, with all the regional BDSM munch groups out there, I find it baffling that no one has come up with the idea of linking the ones who have active websites into a sticky for the Library Travelers section, to better serve the people on the road and help them keep in touch with like mind.

While I am not angered at this, I am honestly surprised that a site like this has been around for so long, and no one has even recommended this to the admins. This strikes at the heart of the thread's title... Education... Where is it these days?

[_ID_]

LW as I sit here and read what you've written, I think I understand what you envision.

It would be awesome if there could be a consensus on the definitions. That would lead to many things, besides just an education. We would be able to properly organize, be able to get rights, be able to follow in the footsteps of the GLBT community.

Alas that won't happen. Mostly because there will not be a consensus on the very basic things. A disappointing end result to be sure, but one that we currently live with. SSC has helped our community, but it doesn't solve all the paradigms that exist in the nilla community. Again, because we can't agree on the definition of even what SSC entails, and as a result we now have RACK.

I do encourage you to follow your vision. But I'm a pessimist, and have little expectation of it to go anywhere. Regardless of your enthusiastic attitude.

[The Lord Winter]

LW as I sit here and read what you've written, I think I understand what you envision.

It would be awesome if there could be a consensus on the definitions. That would lead to many things, besides just an education. We would be able to properly organize, be able to get rights, be able to follow in the footsteps of the GLBT community.

Alas that won't happen. Mostly because there will not be a consensus on the very basic things. A disappointing end result to be sure, but one that we currently live with. SSC has helped our community, but it doesn't solve all the paradigms that exist in the nilla community. Again, because we can't agree on the definition of even what SSC entails, and as a result we now have RACK.

No refuge or haven was ever found that was not first sought, my friend. I'd be selling myself short if I ever gave up the hunt.

I do encourage you to follow your vision. But I'm a pessimist, and have little expectation of it to go anywhere. Regardless of your enthusiastic attitude.

Thank you.