Lost Data

[denuseri]

Predestination that you are incable of knowing doesnt change the fact that from your perspective: you and you alone decide for yourself what your going to do in any given situation.

The one attempting to argue symatics here isnt me.

It doesnt refute anything whatsoever when you put Stenger up against Augustine and Occum with his razors.

Not all theologians say evil comes from "satan" (which wouldnt matter eaither since god made the devil) and being all powerful the devil must work for him by Stenger's model or not exisit at all, which only really addresess the issue of omnibenevolance.

Which btw isnt one of the criteria of being a surpreme deity persay.

[Thorne]

Predestination that you are incable of knowing doesnt change the fact that from your perspective: you and you alone decide for yourself what your going to do in any given situation.

Let's play a little game. You are my prisoner and I have given you a choice. Press the wrong button and you will die. Press the right button and you will go free. You have no reason to believe I am lying, and have every reason to believe that you may get free. You don't know that both buttons will kill you, so you assume you have a choice, but in reality your fate is sealed.

Just because YOU think there is a choice, or free will, does not make it so. An omniscient God implies that your fate is sealed. Your choices, while perhaps important in your mind, are meaningless.

It doesnt refute anything whatsoever when you put Stenger up against Augustine and Occum with his razors.

Not all theologians say evil comes from "satan" (which wouldnt matter eaither since god made the devil) and being all powerful the devil must work for him by Stenger's model or not exisit at all, which only really addresess the issue of omnibenevolance.

Stenger's arguments are just as valid as Augustine's. Neither has any evidence for his side, although to my mind Stenger has the more logical argument, based upon the attributes of God as defined in the Bible.

Which btw isnt one of the criteria of being a surpreme deity persay.

I don't know about any generic supreme deity, but God, as defined in the Bible, is omnibenevolent, omniscient and omnipotent. So he either permits evil things to happen, which means he is not omnibenevolent, or he doesn't know when evil will happen, which means he is not omniscient, or he cannot do anything to contain evil, which means he is not omnipotent. In ANY of these cases he fails the test, a test based on his own purported words, as put down in the Bible.

[steelish]

Let's play a little game. You are my prisoner and I have given you a choice. Press the wrong button and you will die. Press the right button and you will go free. You have no reason to believe I am lying, and have every reason to believe that you may get free. You don't know that both buttons will kill you, so you assume you have a choice, but in reality your fate is sealed.

Just because YOU think there is a choice, or free will, does not make it so. An omniscient God implies that your fate is sealed. Your choices, while perhaps important in your mind, are meaningless.

Ah yes, but the predetermined fate God gives you (if indeed He is omniscient) might be based upon your life up to that moment. How you lived it...how you treated others...how you reacted to situations, etc.

[steelish]

I don't know about any generic supreme deity, but God, as defined in the Bible, is omnibenevolent, omniscient and omnipotent. So he either permits evil things to happen, which means he is not omnibenevolent, or he doesn't know when evil will happen, which means he is not omniscient, or he cannot do anything to contain evil, which means he is not omnipotent. In ANY of these cases he fails the test, a test based on his own purported words, as put down in the Bible.

MY theory - and it is JUST a theory of mine - is that God was the meaning of creation, and just as compared to the universe, our lives on earth are just a blink of an eye as far as "time" goes. God created life to allow good and evil to wage against each other, and it is up to each individual to wage their own war against evil. Some lose, others win.

As to predetermined fate; my theory on that is that the decisions we make in life (and the decisions of the people who surround us) lead us to a moment in time where the continuation of our life or our death might occur. I believe we make myriad decisions daily that could easily effect whether we live or die.

Case in point; You might be driving a motorcycle because it is a sunny day and you decided to go for a pleasant drive, but the person driving in the lane beside you decides to fiddle with the radio, or possibly to send a text message. Suddenly, their car swerves into you and you get into a fatal accident. Was your death your fault? Maybe, because you didn't HAVE to get on that motorcycle. The accident surely wasn't your fault, but your death could have been prevented had you made a different decision.

[Thorne]

MY theory - and it is JUST a theory of mine - is that God was the meaning of creation, and just as compared to the universe, our lives on earth are just a blink of an eye as far as "time" goes. God created life to allow good and evil to wage against each other, and it is up to each individual to wage their own war against evil. Some lose, others win.

I can understand this, even accept the possibility of it. But it is NOT Jehovah you are talking about here. The god you hypothesize would not be likely to intervene in human affairs, would not really care whether or not people believed in him, would not be interested in having people worship him. He would have started the universe and let it go.

As to predetermined fate; my theory on that is that the decisions we make in life (and the decisions of the people who surround us) lead us to a moment in time where the continuation of our life or our death might occur. I believe we make myriad decisions daily that could easily effect whether we live or die.

Obviously this statement holds true as far as we can know. We do make decisions every day, and they do affect our own future, however minutely, and the futures of those around us. I have no problem with this.

And again, I am dealing with the traditional definition of the biblical God. As an omniscient being, by definition, he knows the entire path of the universe, and every particle and beam of light, from creation to destruction. Since the bible places him outside of the universe, infinite, he knows everything about everything even before he creates it, again by definition. So regardless of how we may believe our actions are performed by our own free will, those actions were written in the mind of God, if you will, even before the creation of the universe. That is predestination.

Now I don't believe any of this. I don't find any need to hypothesize beings who have no interaction with the universe, beings who do not help or hinder us along our paths. As far as I can tell, such beings have no real meaning in our lives.

[DuncanONeil]

[QUOTE=Thorne;837746]Yes, theologians have been wrestling with this problem for centuries, with little or no success. Evil comes from Satan, they say. But God created Satan, and that omniscient God knew that Satan would bring evil to the world, so God knowingly created evil.
QUOTE]

As I remember Satan created himself!

[Thorne]

[QUOTE=DuncanONeil;837898]

Yes, theologians have been wrestling with this problem for centuries, with little or no success. Evil comes from Satan, they say. But God created Satan, and that omniscient God knew that Satan would bring evil to the world, so God knowingly created evil.
QUOTE]

As I remember Satan created himself!

If that were true then Satan would be God's equal, able to create something from nothing.

The way I learned it was that Satan, or Lucifer as he was called, was an angel created by God and cast down for rebelling against God. But with his omniscience, God would have known beforehand of Lucifer's evil, yet he created him anyway. Therefore, either God created evil, or he is not all knowing, or he is unable to stop what has been preordained. In any of these cases he fails the test for God (Jehovah).

[steelish]

I can understand this, even accept the possibility of it. But it is NOT Jehovah you are talking about here. The god you hypothesize would not be likely to intervene in human affairs, would not really care whether or not people believed in him, would not be interested in having people worship him. He would have started the universe and let it go.

Not necessarily. I believe our life on earth is God's test for us.

[DuncanONeil]

[QUOTE=Thorne;837911]

If that were true then Satan would be God's equal, able to create something from nothing.

The way I learned it was that Satan, or Lucifer as he was called, was an angel created by God and cast down for rebelling against God. But with his omniscience, God would have known beforehand of Lucifer's evil, yet he created him anyway. Therefore, either God created evil, or he is not all knowing, or he is unable to stop what has been preordained. In any of these cases he fails the test for God (Jehovah).

"Lucifer as he was called, was an angel created by God and cast down for rebelling against God."
See! As I said Satan created himself.
"with his omniscience, God would have known beforehand of Lucifer's evil," I take it then that you are of the opinion that God must not allow free will? Omniscience is not so much knowledge of will happen. But of all of the courses of results for all decision points.

[Thorne]

I take it then that you are of the opinion that God must not allow free will?

Not exactly. It's my opinion that the idea of God, as defined in the Bible, is incompatible with the idea of free will.

Omniscience is not so much knowledge of will happen. But of all of the courses of results for all decision points.

That's one definition, certainly, but not the one which is taught in the Biblical version of God. Or at least the why I was taught it. And much depends on which specific religion you are talking about. Since none can actually know anything real about their god, they make up their own definitions of what that god is, what he can do and why he does it. And when society grow beyond those definitions, why, they change the definitions!

[DuncanONeil]

Not exactly. It's my opinion that the idea of God, as defined in the Bible, is incompatible with the idea of free will.

Sorry I can not see such a restrictive description. Free will existed and is mention since the Garden.

That's one definition, certainly, but not the one which is taught in the Biblical version of God. Or at least the why I was taught it. And much depends on which specific religion you are talking about. Since none can actually know anything real about their god, they make up their own definitions of what that god is, what he can do and why he does it. And when society grow beyond those definitions, why, they change the definitions!

I will be honest, I do not remember the exact language of the lessons I received. Yet the concept of an All Knowing, All Powerful" God does not alter the description of knowing the result of all different actions by any of the creations. Now that you made me think thjat far back I do have a vague recollection of such a comment being made eithe by the nuns in elementary or priests in High School.

[denuseri]

Non the less we have the illussion if nothing else of free will, regardless of weather or not God allready knows our choices etc, we still make them for ourselves.

But, some take a much more trancendental approach to the interpetation of these things.

It is also written that God is Love, and that God resides within each and every one of us, yes even you Thorne lol.

We are after all made in his image.

[Thorne]

Sorry I can not see such a restrictive description. Free will existed and is mention since the Garden.
I'm aware that it's mentioned. I just don't agree that it's possible with the biblical interpretation of God, as I remember my lessons.
I will be honest, I do not remember the exact language of the lessons I received. Yet the concept of an All Knowing, All Powerful" God does not alter the description of knowing the result of all different actions by any of the creations. Now that you made me think thjat far back I do have a vague recollection of such a comment being made eithe by the nuns in elementary or priests in High School.

Yeah, that's part of my problem. I've spent so many years gratefully forgetting those lessons it's hard to dredge them up again.

[Thorne]

But, some take a much more trancendental approach to the interpetation of these things.

It is also written that God is Love, and that God resides within each and every one of us, yes even you Thorne lol.

We are after all made in his image.

Everyone is entitled to take whatever approach they wish. That's one of the joys of freedom.

But my points are in reference to the Biblical Jehovah, who is supposedly the author of the Bible, and who is anything BUT love. And thankfully I am absolutely confident that there is no God residing within me. For we are not made in His image: rather, He was made in ours, with all our faults and foibles. And as mankind, through ignorance, created God, so mankind, through education, will eliminate him.

[denuseri]

Or one day may find he is real and within us all.

God didnt write anything directly on the pages of a book unless in extension through us of his omnipotence. In which case, everything ever written by the hand of any man, including pornographic stories, is also written by god.

[DuncanONeil]

Yeah, that's part of my problem. I've spent so many years gratefully forgetting those lessons it's hard to dredge them up again.

What is it about the "bibical interpretation of God that leads you to a decision that there is no free will and that no God?

[DuncanONeil]

"(S)o mankind, through education, will eliminate him"
Good luck with that!

Everyone is entitled to take whatever approach they wish. That's one of the joys of freedom.

But my points are in reference to the Biblical Jehovah, who is supposedly the author of the Bible, and who is anything BUT love. And thankfully I am absolutely confident that there is no God residing within me. For we are not made in His image: rather, He was made in ours, with all our faults and foibles. And as mankind, through ignorance, created God, so mankind, through education, will eliminate him.

[Thorne]

What is it about the "bibical interpretation of God that leads you to a decision that there is no free will and that no God?

The Biblical interpretation, as I understand it, says that God knew, even before creation, everything that would occur after creation, right up to the end of the universe. That implies that the future is fixed, and therefore free will is an illusion. This is the way I was taught, and one of the things which pushed me away from the Catholic Church was their refusal to answer questions like this. It was always a case of "taking it on faith", which I found I could not do.

[Thorne]

"(S)o mankind, through education, will eliminate him"
Good luck with that!

The gods were created by men in an attempt to explain those things which they were ignorant about and unable to control, such as storms, earthquakes, volcanos, and the like. As our understanding of the natural world and the universe at large has grown, the need for having supernatural creatures to explain things has diminished. The advent of the home computer and the internet, bringing unprecedented means of information to virtually everyone everywhere is allowing great strides in understanding our real place in this universe, and the growing desperation of religions trying to maintain their hold on people's minds is allowing people to see those religions for what they really are. I honestly believe that, eventually, the greatest part of mankind (except for a few fanatics and idiots) will toss off the shackles of religion and realize their true potential.

I have faith in us.

[denuseri]

The existance of Gods or God if you will isnt just some catch all imaginary thing used to explain our surroundings nessesarally, it's also a way of explaining those things we see within our selves sometimes those things that come from ourselves.

Perspective is everything when it comes to understanding something.

Ancient societies and faiths despite being seperated from each other developed many similar views on these things.

The more we discover through science and faith the closer to understanding the actual true nature of the universe and of god we come.

Ancient knowledge isnt nesseasarally popycock just becuase its been maligned by the faithless or those who think only one way exists of looking at things.

[Thorne]

The existance of Gods or God if you will isnt just some catch all imaginary thing used to explain our surroundings nessesarally, it's also a way of explaining those things we see within our selves sometimes those things that come from ourselves.

Perspective is everything when it comes to understanding something.

Ancient societies and faiths despite being seperated from each other developed many similar views on these things.

The more we discover through science and faith the closer to understanding the actual true nature of the universe and of god we come.

Ancient knowledge isnt nesseasarally popycock just becuase its been maligned by the faithless or those who think only one way exists of looking at things.

Ancient knowledge should not be confused with ancient superstitions. Knowledge is gained through experience and education, while superstition is just a way to explain something you cannot, or will not, understand. As you gain understanding the need for such explanations declines. A perfect example is lightning.

Christians always considered lightning to be a sign of God's wrath, inflicted upon sinners for their evil ways. Until Ben Franklin determined the true nature of lightning and, more importantly, developed a defense: the lightning rod.

Church leaders called the lightning rod a tool of the devil, intended to divert God's wrath. Business owners, on the other hand, realized that their buildings weren't getting struck when protected by the rods. When Church leaders realized that the town churches were being struck repeatedly while the town brothels were not they quickly changed their tunes.

Education and understanding eliminated the need for God as an excuse for being struck by lightning. Superstition feeds that obsolete need.

A Greek mathematician, Eratosthenes, calculated the diameter of the Earth around 240BC, so the ancients certainly had the knowledge and the intelligence to use that knowledge. But that does not mean that everything they believed should be taken as gospel. They were just as easy to manipulate and mislead as modern humans.

Certainly people can believe that God resides within them. There is no one who can prove them wrong. But if they cannot admit to themselves that this belief is based only on faith and not on evidence they are no better off than some ancient shepherd cowering in his field because a comet hangs in the sky. Maintain your faith if it comforts you. But don't deny reality and don't attempt to force that faith on others.

[denuseri]

Ancient knowledge should not be confused with ancient superstitions. Knowledge is gained through experience and education, (As well as through meditation and wisdom and can come from within in some peoples experience) while superstition is just a way to explain something you cannot, or will not, understand. As you gain understanding the need for such explanations declines. A perfect example is lightning. Another one is mans beilief that clairvoance was a fallacy, yet remote viewing techniques have proven thats not entirely true.

Some Christians always (and other christans figured it wasnt, surprising huh?) considered lightning to be a sign of God's wrath, inflicted upon sinners for their evil ways. Until Ben Franklin determined the true nature of lightning and, more importantly, developed a defense: the lightning rod. Benjamin Franklin was raised as an Episcopalian but was a Deist as an adult.

Again some: Church leaders called the lightning rod a tool of the devil, intended to divert God's wrath. Business owners (who were also most likely christans), on the other hand, realized that their buildings weren't getting struck when protected by the rods. When Church leaders realized that the town churches (a lot of churches allrady had a version of the rod in a cross on a steeple, where do you think Ben may have got the idea) were being struck repeatedly while the town brothels were not they quickly changed their tunes.

Education and understanding eliminated the need for God as an excuse for being struck by lightning. Superstition feeds that obsolete need. Todays magic is tomarrows science too.

A Greek mathematician, Eratosthenes, calculated the diameter of the Earth around 240BC, so the ancients certainly had the knowledge and the intelligence to use that knowledge. (and yet they also belived in a great many other things you wish to blithely ignore or refuse to see as valid, when they were part of the whole) But that does not mean that everything they believed should be taken as gospel. They were just as easy to manipulate and mislead as modern humans. There we agree, but I think all of it should however be considered and studdied in much greater detail before poetions are dismissed.

Certainly people can believe that God resides within them. There is no one who can prove them wrong. But if they cannot admit to themselves that this belief is based only on faith and not on evidence they are no better off than some ancient shepherd cowering in his field because a comet hangs in the sky. Maintain your faith if it comforts you. But don't deny reality and don't attempt to force that faith on others.

Again, I agree, no one should force anything on anyone, including athiests and scientists. And some of those beliefs are based on more than just faith depending upon which beliefs we are speaking of here. The world is not the Catholic Church that maligned you so during your youth.

[Thorne]

Ancient knowledge should not be confused with ancient superstitions. Knowledge is gained through experience and education, [B](As well as through meditation and wisdom and can come from within in some peoples experience)

I disagree. Inspiration and understanding (wisdom) may come through meditation, but not new knowledge.

Another one is mans beilief that clairvoance was a fallacy, yet remote viewing techniques have proven thats not entirely true.

You have proof of clairvoyance? And remote viewing? All I've ever heard of are illusionists' tricks and failed tests. I would love to see your evidence of these things. (Remember, anecdotes are not evidence.)

Benjamin Franklin was raised as an Episcopalian but was a Deist as an adult.

What difference does that make? His work is the same, regardless.

(a lot of churches allrady had a version of the rod in a cross on a steeple, where do you think Ben may have got the idea)

Actually, the crosses were part of the problem, providing a relatively easy path for lightning. And since they weren't grounded they didn't drain off the excess charge. Instead, they transmitted the full force of the lightning to the building (church).

Todays magic is tomarrows science too.

Today's magic is either illusion for entertainment or for fraud. Magic does not work. Every scientific test of magic or supernatural claims has failed. While it is true that a sufficiently advanced technology could appear to be magic, the very fact that we are aware of that possibility allows us to search for the science behind it, rather than chalking it up to magic.

A Greek mathematician, Eratosthenes, calculated the diameter of the Earth around 240BC, so the ancients certainly had the knowledge and the intelligence to use that knowledge. (and yet they also belived in a great many other things you wish to blithely ignore or refuse to see as valid, when they were part of the whole)

Such as? I am quite willing to accept anything they may have believed, provided there is evidence for it. Their belief that Zeus ruled from Mt. Olympus, and such, does not impress me, however.

I think all of it should however be considered and studdied in much greater detail before poetions are dismissed.

It has been considered and studied. And discounted. That's what science does! That's why we have chemists rather than alchemists. That's why we have astronomers rather than astrologers (although there are still far too many of those around, too.)

no one should force anything on anyone, including athiests and scientists.

I can't speak for all atheists and scientists, of course, but I don't believe in forcing beliefs on anyone, either. But keeping theists from equating superstitions with science is not forcing beliefs, but keeping the two separate. Telling people that there's nothing wrong with not believing in God (as in the atheist bus ads campaigns) is not forcing anyone to believe in anything.

The world is not the Catholic Church that maligned you so during your youth.

I wouldn't say I was maligned by the Church. More like misled and lied to. But while I am more familiar with the Catholic Church than any other religions, I am against all types of religions. It's my belief that religion causes more problems and divisions in the world, simply by segregating people into believers and non-believers, than any other form of human endeavor. Using people's fears of death to control them is not my idea of a good thing.

[steelish]

Certainly people can believe that God resides within them. There is no one who can prove them wrong. But if they cannot admit to themselves that this belief is based only on faith and not on evidence they are no better off than some ancient shepherd cowering in his field because a comet hangs in the sky. Maintain your faith if it comforts you. But don't deny reality and don't attempt to force that faith on others.

I am completely against organized religion. Most are zealots who (I agree with you) use people's faith as scare tactics to enforce the behavior they require their congregation to exhibit.

That being said it is my belief that faith in God's existence is exactly that...FAITH. I do believe he resides in each one of us. I feel He is the guiding force for good. Some call it a conscience, I prefer to believe it is God's guiding hand. Call it what you will. I for one think people are entitled to their own opinion in regards to faith. I do not believe in trying to "recruit" followers as organized religions are want to do. What another person believes (as far as religion goes) doesn't directly effect my life. Thank God (a slight pun there) that I live in the States and not where it WOULD effect my life, such as Ireland, Israel, Afghanistan, Iraq, etc.

[Thorne]

That being said it is my belief that faith in God's existence is exactly that...FAITH. I do believe he resides in each one of us. I feel He is the guiding force for good. Some call it a conscience, I prefer to believe it is God's guiding hand. Call it what you will. I for one think people are entitled to their own opinion in regards to faith. I do not believe in trying to "recruit" followers as organized religions are want to do. What another person believes (as far as religion goes) doesn't directly effect my life. Thank God (a slight pun there) that I live in the States and not where it WOULD effect my life, such as Ireland, Israel, Afghanistan, Iraq, etc.

Even here in the US religion has far too great an influence on our lives than it should. Where I live they still have "Blue Laws" proscribing what one can do on Sundays. Your religion, or lack of it, has no bearing on whether these laws apply to you: they affect everyone. Those who protest against gay marriage are mostly doing so on religious grounds. Just ask gays in California if the tenets of organized religion have affected their lives. The same goes for abortion. And how likely would it be for an avowed atheist, for example, to be elected President?

Religion in the US is so ubiquitous that we don't always see how it affects our daily lives, whether we believe or not. Most vocal atheists are striving to make people aware of that. They aren't trying to "recruit", or convert, people. They don't care what you believe. All they (we) want is for religious beliefs to be kept out of our lives. Don't make something illegal on Sunday if it's not illegal on Saturday. Don't push religion into public schools. Don't make others adhere to a religious belief of what constitutes a "proper" marriage.

As I've stated often here, I have no problem with those who believe in God, or gods. If you find comfort in your beliefs, who am I to say you are wrong? And if I don't feel the need for such a belief in my life, who is there to tell me that I am wrong?