Does the Haiti earthquake prove that there is no god?

[IAN 2411]

[QUOTE=Thorne;843678]

Now you seem to be saying that just speaking the word, God or Goddess, makes him or her real. But which god/goddess? Thor? Hera? Venus? Jehovah? There's four more I've spoken aloud. I'll expect Xmas cards from all of them.

Xmas cards are not about God they are about celebrating the birth of Christ, and he was not a god, he was a prophet. I think that the reason you don’t believe in any god, is because you have never been taught the basics.

[Thorne]

Xmas cards are not about God they are about celebrating the birth of Christ, and he was not a god, he was a prophet. I think that the reason you don’t believe in any god, is because you have never been taught the basics.

LOL! Please! I had more than 12 years of learning the basics. And check your own sources. Christ is the son of God, and in the Catholic Church he is considered an aspect of the Trinity: The Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. Three gods for the price of one!

And CHRISTMAS is about celebrating the birth of Christ, even though from bliblical references he was probably born (if he existed at all) in the spring rather than the beginning of winter, and even though the timing for Christmas was set to coincide with the pagan solstice festivals, first as an effort to hide Christian celebrations amongst the pagan celebrations, and later to make it easier for those pagans to convert.

Besides which, the Xmas card comment was SARCASM!

And finally, the reason I don't believe in any god is because I have never seen anything even remotely resembling evidence for the existence of any supernatural beings. All I've ever heard, my whole life, is hearsay and speculation. And if there's one thing my good Catholic education taught me, it was to rely on evidence, not hearsay, to decide what's real or not.

So again I say, to you and to any others here who feel I'm wrong: show me the evidence!

[IAN 2411]

And Christ is the son of God

Wrong, he was the self proclaimed son of God, the only others that says the same were the disciples. The rest is hearsay.



[QUOTE=Thorne;843706]Besides which, the Xmas card comment was SARCASM[QUOTE]


Sarcasm is the lowest form of wit, and very derisive.


If you cannot comment positively then don’t comment at all, I came into thread for a discussion with all posters debating the validity of God. Not to get in an argument with you, because you have some personal vendetta with anyone that differs from your point of view.

[Saheli]

So, predestination. The future is fixed and there's nothing we can do to change it. In which case, you have no choice in whether you believe or not. Your path is programmed from the moment of creation.

Sorry, I "choose" not to believe this.

This is one of the biggest debate in Christian circles also...and there are two main groups that have formed from it. Calvinists believe that God has chosen who will become saved and who won't, and so there is no point in trying to convert anyone or even in trying to become saved, because if you are chosen then you will and if not there is nothing you can do but go to Hell. Non-Calvinsts, obviously, believe the opposite. It's also pretty obvoius that the guy who came up with Calvinistic view was named Calvin...gotta love the creativity!

[Saheli]

i am getting married in a few months and wanted a ceremony that had more than the requirements of New York State. i found an officiant who was raised a Jew, became a Zen Buddhist and is a Reverend. He and i were talking he said something i really liked which is maybe veering off the path alittle bit. He said what we call God really comes down to alphabet. The one thing i do teach my kids is that God is everywhere and in everyone if you look hard enough. i practice Native American spirituality. The only thing of that that i try to impress upon them is respect everything as part of Creator and Creation. Everything has something to show you if you look. As Ian said there will be many more deaths in many more ways till the end of time. My mother just died 12/24 after being sick for 5 years and suffering the entire time. As in Job, she was a devout Christian when she got sick. There were times when she said that she didn't know why God let her suffer so. As in Job, the only thing anyone could do was sit quietly and attend to her suffering. i went to the Tibetan book of the Dead for my guidance in how to help her. Did anything i or the Christians do help her? She had also gone to the Rabbi during her lucid times as she was from a Jewish background. Did he bring her comfort? i don't know. She suffered worse than anyone i have ever watched die and cried out for help 24/7. The morning she died she spoke to her aide (she hadn't been lucid for months) and told her she was ready to die, to rest in peace and she died shortly after. So my point is this, during her suffering it clearly looked like all the faith in the world did nothing at all for her. She had said she felt abandoned. In the last moments of her life ( a devout life) it was clear that her faith had sustained her and led her to the next plane. i do not believe in heaven or hell. i do believe in a spirit world that mirrors this except we are closer to the Creator. i do believe we have lessons to learn that help us to grow in the direction our spirit is to grow. Do i think that i have the right to tell you how to live? in my beliefs that is a very big no no. My point is only that suffering doesn't mean that God is allowing it as death is part of this world. We suffer through birth, we suffer through death. To me its the same, to you it is what ever it is. Suffering is as pleasure is. To me reflections of the same thing. Nobody ever walks into a tv or radio station saying there was no natural disasters today so this is proof that God is here. i think its beautiful that we think and wonder and discuss the God idea as part of being human. To me, its proof that somewhere within us is a spot that needs this to grow. If there is a God and God wanted us to know for sure, it seems like it would be easy enough. i think we are meant to wonder and discuss and argue about this. i know i went several different directions at once with this post, random girl strikes again.

I really appreciate your post. I also believe that we can always find something positive in things and learn from them...like you said "Everything has something to show you if you look." The biggest problem with people is that we're too busy showing everyone else what we think that we don't have time to see what the things around us are trying to show to us. Instead of showing, we should take more time to learn. I am very sorry about the story of your mother. I know it will be hard to get married without your mother there, but I am very glad that you shared her story here. It was very insightful. And I also believe like you that everything has a counter-part...a mirror, and it was a very insightful observation to note that people tend to ask questions in one scenario when they wouldn't even think to ask in the opposite.

[Thorne]

Wrong, he was the self proclaimed son of God, the only others that says the same were the disciples. The rest is hearsay.

Perhaps in your belief system. In the Catholic Church, Jesus is God, one leg of the Trinity.

If you cannot comment positively then don’t comment at all, I came into thread for a discussion with all posters debating the validity of God. Not to get in an argument with you, because you have some personal vendetta with anyone that differs from your point of view.

I have no quarrel with anyone's point of view, per se. I am a firm proponent of letting others believe what they wish. It's only when they try to convince me, or others, that what they believe is absolutely true that I will question them. But if your beliefs are unable to stand up to those questions perhaps you shouldn't put them out into an open forum.

And to my knowledge all of my comments have been of a positive nature. They just don't correspond to your beliefs.

[Hamishlacastle]

I believe that Love/god was in every crack, every crevass of that quake. He is not the reigning authority, nature and others are. His love oozed thro the quake. and his light shone on every dying soul. Where was God you ask he was everywhere. He is the binding force of the light but he can not stop natural laws. Well he can but most often dows nt

[Hamishlacastle]

They say that the basic element of light matter is strings of energy. I believe these strings of energy are the creator of the universe. He has a voice and a spirit as will if you look.

[Hamishlacastle]

I believe that Love/god was in every crack, every crevass of that quake. He is not the reigning authority, nature and others are. His love oozed thro the quake. and his light shone on every dying soul. Where was God you ask he was everywhere. He is the binding force of the light but he can not stop natural laws. Well he can but most often dows nt

[Thorne]

I believe that Love/god was in every crack, every crevass of that quake. He is not the reigning authority, nature and others are. His love oozed thro the quake. and his light shone on every dying soul. Where was God you ask he was everywhere. He is the binding force of the light but he can not stop natural laws. Well he can but most often dows nt

But why would he not intervene?

[IAN 2411]

Ok Thorn get your thinking cap around this idea, it is something that has fasinated my mind for a long time. No one really knows anything about the universe that we live in, and even less about how it was created, ok that theory about the big bang, for those that thought of that , well let them live with it because it is only educated guess work, so now hear is my theory as daft as it might seem. The universe is a molacule of a lump of steel, the earth is an atom of that molacule, and the person that made the steel is God, all hail to the steel workers; and before you ask, no i have no idea if the steel workers god is real or if he has one. LoL

Regards ian 2411

[Thorne]

Ok Thorn get your thinking cap around this idea, it is something that has fasinated my mind for a long time. No one really knows anything about the universe that we live in, and even less about how it was created, ok that theory about the big bang, for those that thought of that , well let them live with it because it is only educated guess work, so now hear is my theory as daft as it might seem. The universe is a molacule of a lump of steel, the earth is an atom of that molacule, and the person that made the steel is God, all hail to the steel workers; and before you ask, no i have no idea if the steel workers god is real or if he has one. LoL

Regards ian 2411

Not a very original idea, I must say. Except for the steel workers part, I suppose. I've read a few science fiction stories in my day with similar plots. And if that's what you want to believe, if that makes you comfortable, fine. I won't argue with it.

But may I ask, do you have any evidence to support your religion? Does your religion explain the observed expansion of the universe? Does your religion explain the observed facts of evolution and geology? If so, show me the evidence. Make your case. Who knows? You may even be able to convert me!

Scientists know a hell of a lot about the universe, through observation and deduction and experimentation. They can explain the evolution of the cosmos from a point many thousandths of a second after the Big Bang (which wasn't really a bang, btw) up to the present and on into the future. They can explain the movement of the continents across the face of the globe, splitting and combining, forming oceans and mountains, over billions of years, and into the future. They can even explain the evolution of life, from a festering puddle of toxic goo; through the huddled, superstitious clans hiding in caves; right up to the sprawling, still superstitious, masses of humanity we have today. All supported by evidence, thoughtful deduction and, yes, even a little educated guesswork thrown in. And none of it requires the presence of an invisible man to keep things running smoothly.

So again I say: Show me the evidence! Go ahead. Make me a convert to your steel worker god.

[IAN 2411]

Not a very original idea, I must say. Except for the steel workers part, I suppose. I've read a few science fiction stories in my day with similar plots. And if that's what you want to believe, if that makes you comfortable, fine. I won't argue with it.

But may I ask, do you have any evidence to support your religion? Does your religion explain the observed expansion of the universe? Does your religion explain the observed facts of evolution and geology? If so, show me the evidence. Make your case. Who knows? You may even be able to convert me!

Scientists know a hell of a lot about the universe, through observation and deduction and experimentation. They can explain the evolution of the cosmos from a point many thousandths of a second after the Big Bang (which wasn't really a bang, btw) up to the present and on into the future. They can explain the movement of the continents across the face of the globe, splitting and combining, forming oceans and mountains, over billions of years, and into the future. They can even explain the evolution of life, from a festering puddle of toxic goo; through the huddled, superstitious clans hiding in caves; right up to the sprawling, still superstitious, masses of humanity we have today. All supported by evidence, thoughtful deduction and, yes, even a little educated guesswork thrown in. And none of it requires the presence of an invisible man to keep things running smoothly.

So again I say: Show me the evidence! Go ahead. Make me a convert to your steel worker god.

On this occasion I have to agree with you, but that still does not prove we are not in a steel plate. The worrying thing is since writing my last post, I have just looked at my car, and was wondering how many universes would be in it, LoL, meaning space, time, continuum. Now I have an appointment with a psychiatrist that I must keep.

Convert you? I very much doubt it.

Regards ian 2411

[Thorne]

On this occasion I have to agree with you, but that still does not prove we are not in a steel plate.

I've never said it does. I've also never claimed that science proves that God does not exist. In fact, as I've often said, no one can prove that anything does not exist. It's impossible to prove a negative. All we can do is say that there is no evidence to show that something exists, or perhaps show that the existence of item A would mean that item B could not exist, but since item B does exist then item A cannot exist.

And tomorrow, when we prove the existence of item A and yet item B still exists, a whole new field of science will be born! Hallelujah!

Convert you? I very much doubt it.

Miracles have been known to happen.

Haven't they?

[Saheli]

I believe that Love/god was in every crack, every crevass of that quake. He is not the reigning authority, nature and others are. His love oozed thro the quake. and his light shone on every dying soul. Where was God you ask he was everywhere. He is the binding force of the light but he can not stop natural laws. Well he can but most often dows nt

I can appreciate what you're saying, but it seems more poetic than thought out... For instance, what exactly do you mean when you say that you "believe that Love/god was in every crack..."? "His love oozed through the quake."? And this last one is the one that some might interpret offensively..."his light shone on every dying soul". I get the sentiment, that you believe that God was present in the situation. If you were wording for poetic reasons, ok...that would make sense. But if you are stating those things as reasons why the eartquake proves there is a God, then I think explaining a little wouldn't hurt, because I don't know what kind of argument that is..

[tedteague]

this is probably not going to be read, and im admittedly late to the table, but the earthquake shows nothing. There is nothing inherently evil in an earthquake, it is a natural occurence due to the tectonic shifting in the earth (or something like that). If this happened and nobody was hurt, it would not be considered evil

[Thorne]

If this happened and nobody was hurt, it would not be considered evil

Maybe not, but you can be damned sure someone would call it a miracle, and proof of the existence of God.

I always get a chuckle when people claim that they survived an earthquake, or a flood, or a tornado because of God, yet they never blame God for the disaster in the first place. After all, according to the Bible, earthquakes, floods and other natural disasters are always considered to be caused by God's wrath. Just once I'd like to hear someone say, "Well, God tried to kill me with this storm, but I had the foresight to dig myself a storm cellar and he missed me."

[DuncanONeil]

That's it? A pronouncement? No explanation or proof offered? Not even a discourse of how you came to your opinion? In otherwords...

I should just "believe" you?

Only if you want! All I said was God has not been disproven.

[DuncanONeil]

This is the fundamentalist tactic:
"I say it, therefore it's so."
"You can't show us a crocoduck, therefore evilution is wrong."
"I can't understand how the universe could have developed from nothing, therefore God did it."

They don't need evidence, they don't need explanations, simply pronouncements from on high.

As stated;

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ozme52 View Post
That's it? A pronouncement? No explanation or proof offered? Not even a discourse of how you came to your opinion? In otherwords...

I should just "believe" you?

Only if you want! All I said was God has not been disproven.

I did not advocate for the other side either!

[DuncanONeil]

There are fallacies in history books as well.
All likely the result of putting pen to paper! I hope that is the reason, anyway.
I suppose the big thing is; why does it need to proven either way?

If it makes you comfortable, then go ahead and believe. I have no quarrel with that. I'm not trying to prove that gods don't exist. I'm only pointing out fallacies in what we are taught about these gods. Fallacies which, to my mind, tend to deny the existence of those gods.

Any evidence which you must explain, or which is only visible to you, is not tangible evidence. While it may be valid evidence for you, enough to sustain your faith, that doesn't help anyone who cannot see it for himself. But if you come to me and attempt to preach your faith as absolute truth, based upon evidence which only you can see, I'm going to preach right back at you about the fallacy of that faith. And if you try to have that belief system forced onto young minds in school as if it were fact, I'll fight against you.

[DuncanONeil]

Reading your post created quite a good feeling in me.

But I must tell you that either that little devil deep inside, or the sarcasm bug hit hard.
A thought came to me that you need to relay this information that created such feeling of calm in me to those in Congress and the White House. Perhaps they could learn something from the gems of wisdom embodied in you short message!

That's the sad part for me. We are all doing the best we can to figure out what the life around us means. If someone decides there are no gods, if someone decides there are many, if someone decides there is only one, if someone decides that god is really a state of mind...whatever a person believes, why can't other people just leave it alone? There is nothing worse than for someone to attack the way you feel about something and like Thorne said, especially when all they have to defend it is some type of, "Trust me..I know better." That's just insulting. People aren't stupid, and no matter what anyone believes, I don't think that anyone who believes something hasn't thought it through. So I wish that in this area people could just be more understanding. You don't believe the way I do? Fine...you have your reasons, and I have mine. I don't understand why people in this world can't just leave it at that.

I feel like the best thing I can do in life is try to figure out what's important to me, to try my best to not take those things for granted, and to try and leave a positive impact on those around me. It is definitely not my job to try and tell others what to think, and I'm pretty sure we can all agree that people who do that are not only annoying but leave a negative impact. 13'sbadkitty, I think it's really good that you don't try to shove your beliefs down your children's throats. I wish that more people would do the same. This world would be a much more peaceful place if we would just respect the fact that we are all intelligent creatures doing the best we can with what we have.

[DuncanONeil]

Thorne
"That works for me! Keep religion out of the schools and the government and I'll be happy to keep science and government out of the churches."

I think we might all be better off if we could keep Government out of the schools!

[DuncanONeil]

So, predestination. The future is fixed and there's nothing we can do to change it. In which case, you have no choice in whether you believe or not. Your path is programmed from the moment of creation.

Sorry, I "choose" not to believe this.

I am going to go with you on this point. I believe predestination is easily disproven. But those that believe in it will not accept the proof. Since the proof is based on choice and they will state that the choice was already decided.

[DuncanONeil]

Thorne has his opinions and he is not shy about sharing them. I would not accuse him a laying ridicule on the beliefs of others. The comments about "belief in fantasies" does not rise to that level.
He is perfectly willing to allow you those beliefs, but not PC enough to avoid telling you that he thinks you are wrong.

It is your choice not to believe Thorn, that is what the free world is all about, freedom of choice, but don’t mock others that do believe. Neither should you mock the theory of the past being changed once it has been set, and yes I mean set. If you went back in time and saved all those lives that were being lost in WW Two, by killing Hitler before the war even started, then Both the UK and the USA would be in the same predicament as China with its population explosion and there would be no Israel. Once that war had been won our countries futures had been re-set, and this will keep taking place to the end of time, whether you choose to believe or not.




If your wife was run over by a car while you were at work, [and I pray to God this never takes place]. Once you found out, you would be driving across town like a madman trying to get to the hospital, and in your mind you would be saying [God please let her be ok]. Thank you for stating the obvious.

[DuncanONeil]

Ok Thorn get your thinking cap around this idea, it is something that has fasinated my mind for a long time. No one really knows anything about the universe that we live in, and even less about how it was created, ok that theory about the big bang, for those that thought of that , well let them live with it because it is only educated guess work, so now hear is my theory as daft as it might seem. The universe is a molacule of a lump of steel, the earth is an atom of that molacule, and the person that made the steel is God, all hail to the steel workers; and before you ask, no i have no idea if the steel workers god is real or if he has one. LoL

Regards ian 2411

Nothing new there! I developed that concept when I first learned about the atom and compared it to the solar system, back in grad school (pre space flight if you must know).

[DuncanONeil]

Just as there is no concrete evidence that "dark matter" exists!

I've never said it does. I've also never claimed that science proves that God does not exist. In fact, as I've often said, no one can prove that anything does not exist. It's impossible to prove a negative. All we can do is say that there is no evidence to show that something exists, or perhaps show that the existence of item A would mean that item B could not exist, but since item B does exist then item A cannot exist.

And tomorrow, when we prove the existence of item A and yet item B still exists, a whole new field of science will be born! Hallelujah!



Miracles have been known to happen.

Haven't they?

[DuncanONeil]

this is probably not going to be read, and im admittedly late to the table, but the earthquake shows nothing. There is nothing inherently evil in an earthquake, it is a natural occurence due to the tectonic shifting in the earth (or something like that). If this happened and nobody was hurt, it would not be considered evil

I red you!

[Thorne]

There are fallacies in history books as well.
All likely the result of putting pen to paper! I hope that is the reason, anyway.
I suppose the big thing is; why does it need to proven either way?

Sadly, this is quite true. History is, indeed, written by the victors. But recognizing that fact is the first step in correcting the fallacies. And the further removed we are from an historical event, the more likely we are to understand all aspects of that event.

Proving historical events is important because of the understanding we gain of the people involved and the effects of these events upon our own times. Proof of God? I don't need it. And if you have faith, then you don't need it, either. But if you want ME to believe in YOUR god, then you're definitely going to need proof. Verifiable, testable proof.

[DuncanONeil]

I am no longer sure that it is the "victors" that are writing history. Seems that a whole lot of PC activists have decided that they can win the "hearts and minds" of the "young skulls full of mush" by writing history to suit their personal preferences.

One thing that must be made clear here is I have never asked ANYONE to believe in anything that is considered to be God. I can, however, expect and ask a person to act in accordance those precepts that are desireous of civilized polite society everywhere.
Do not forget I am the one that says that in the basic tenents there is no difference among religions.

Sadly, this is quite true. History is, indeed, written by the victors. But recognizing that fact is the first step in correcting the fallacies. And the further removed we are from an historical event, the more likely we are to understand all aspects of that event.

Proving historical events is important because of the understanding we gain of the people involved and the effects of these events upon our own times. Proof of God? I don't need it. And if you have faith, then you don't need it, either. But if you want ME to believe in YOUR god, then you're definitely going to need proof. Verifiable, testable proof.

[Thorne]

I am no longer sure that it is the "victors" that are writing history. Seems that a whole lot of PC activists have decided that they can win the "hearts and minds" of the "young skulls full of mush" by writing history to suit their personal preferences.

The concepts are the same, though. The facts remain constant, but the interpretations can vary. I would prefer to teach the kids the facts and let them make their own conclusions, but for some reason the idea of people actually thinking for themselves is hateful to some people.

One thing that must be made clear here is I have never asked ANYONE to believe in anything that is considered to be God. I can, however, expect and ask a person to act in accordance those precepts that are desireous of civilized polite society everywhere.

That's a laudable goal, for sure. But are you one of those who affirms that those precepts can only come from a belief in a god? Or can you accept the idea that a person can follow no gods and still be a good, civilized person? Unfortunately, there are far too many people who are willing to believe the former rather than the latter.