Does the Haiti earthquake prove that there is no god?

[DuncanONeil]

That's a laudable goal, for sure. But are you one of those who affirms that those precepts can only come from a belief in a god? Or can you accept the idea that a person can follow no gods and still be a good, civilized person? Unfortunately, there are far too many people who are willing to believe the former rather than the latter.

I would suppose that you would conclude that I am. Since I, based on on study, concluded many years ago that there is, basically, no difference among religions at the root.
Much like I discovered, before leaving high school that skin color had nothing to do with quality of the person. Color has no bearing on the goodness or badness of the person.

[Thorne]

I would suppose that you would conclude that I am. Since I, based on on study, concluded many years ago that there is, basically, no difference among religions at the root.
Much like I discovered, before leaving high school that skin color had nothing to do with quality of the person. Color has no bearing on the goodness or badness of the person.

I'm not assuming anything about you. I agree with you that religions are basically identical. It's mostly a matter of control. The priesthoods use well known propaganda and mind control techniques to control their flocks.

I spent 12 years in Catholic schools and realized long before I graduated that the whole thing was a crock. It took me a long time to overcome the teachings of the Church, though. Including the subtle, but definite, racism involved.

[DuncanONeil]

I'm not assuming anything about you. I agree with you that religions are basically identical. It's mostly a matter of control. The priesthoods use well known propaganda and mind control techniques to control their flocks.

I spent 12 years in Catholic schools and realized long before I graduated that the whole thing was a crock. It took me a long time to overcome the teachings of the Church, though. Including the subtle, but definite, racism involved.

I spent 13 years in the same Catholic school (singular)! No failures by the way!
I did have a problem with racism but not from within the church or school. My teachings from them were in opposition to my dad's view. But he did work midnights on the CTA subway. So he got to see a lot of the less than desirable people.

[leo9]

All I said was God has not been disproven.

Nor has the Flying Spaghetti Monster. My gods have been around a lot longer, so I could "logically" argue that the burden of proof is on newer religions.

Religions doctrines are by their nature incapable of disproof, since any contrary evidence can be handwaved (either the Devil did it, or God did it to test our faith). Absence of disproof is not proof, as Russell's Teapot famously shows.

"If I were to suggest that between the Earth and Mars there is a china teapot revolving about the sun in an elliptical orbit, nobody would be able to disprove my assertion provided I were careful to add that the teapot is too small to be revealed even by our most powerful telescopes. But if I were to go on to say that, since my assertion cannot be disproved, it is intolerable presumption on the part of human reason to doubt it, I should rightly be thought to be talking nonsense. If, however, the existence of such a teapot were affirmed in ancient books, taught as the sacred truth every Sunday, and instilled into the minds of children at school, hesitation to believe in its existence would become a mark of eccentricity and entitle the doubter to the attentions of the psychiatrist in an enlightened age or of the Inquisitor in an earlier time."

[angelhunter]

It depends on how you look at it. It proves or disprove a divine being. Some Christians when they see something good happen, they say that is work of God. When I don't see what they see. I won't deny in a creator, but my opinion that this divine being is not a puppet master. The work have been done, that's what the universe shows.

The universe is beyond brilliant. It goes to the simple question is the glass half empty or half full? This universe with the Gods or not, is just a enigma. I am still blown away by the simple things, I am the one who will stand in the rain, while I see people running from it. I also served in the Navy, I seen the wrath of god on the ocean then out of the blue, the storm goes away and the ocean becomes calm. Now that is so freaking cool.

Nuff said!

[DuncanONeil]

Nor is absence of proof, disproof!
Don't get me started on "contrary evidence can be handwaved". Been doing some recent reading on religion that engages ( nevermind).

Nor has the Flying Spaghetti Monster. My gods have been around a lot longer, so I could "logically" argue that the burden of proof is on newer religions.

Religions doctrines are by their nature incapable of disproof, since any contrary evidence can be handwaved (either the Devil did it, or God did it to test our faith). Absence of disproof is not proof, as Russell's Teapot famously shows.

"If I were to suggest that between the Earth and Mars there is a china teapot revolving about the sun in an elliptical orbit, nobody would be able to disprove my assertion provided I were careful to add that the teapot is too small to be revealed even by our most powerful telescopes. But if I were to go on to say that, since my assertion cannot be disproved, it is intolerable presumption on the part of human reason to doubt it, I should rightly be thought to be talking nonsense. If, however, the existence of such a teapot were affirmed in ancient books, taught as the sacred truth every Sunday, and instilled into the minds of children at school, hesitation to believe in its existence would become a mark of eccentricity and entitle the doubter to the attentions of the psychiatrist in an enlightened age or of the Inquisitor in an earlier time."

[Thorne]

Nor is absence of proof, disproof!
Don't get me started on "contrary evidence can be handwaved". Been doing some recent reading on religion that engages ( nevermind).

No, don't pull back. Your opinions are just as welcome here as anyone else's. I, for one, would like to hear what you have to say. While I can't say I always agree with your conclusions, your research of facts is generally first-rate.

And you are right in your assertion that absence of proof in not disproof. I think we can all agree on that.

But I think we can also agree that after 10,000 years of trying to prove that 2+2=5, the lack of such proof is a pretty definitive assertion that the assumption is most probably wrong.

[denuseri]

Only no one's been trying to prove what your saying...the whole prove this or that thing has basically been a modern contrivance...the answer has allways been there its 42.

[Thorne]

[B][COLOR="Pink"]Only no one's been trying to prove what your saying...the whole prove this or that thing has basically been a modern contrivance...

That's mostly because to even suggest that dogma might be wrong was punishable by death. That kind of thinking has a tendency to promote uniformity, at least in public.

the answer has allways been there its 42.

Well, sure. That's obvious NOW!

[denuseri]

No not at all, people used to whorship multiple gods and even adopt and intermingle them all without ever so much as having their existance or non-existance cross their minds in any signifigant way in which it was recorded for posterity.

As for who's god or godess is the oldest....smh, lets not even pretend to go there folks, every cultures pantheon has an origins of the world mythology that states their gods were there at the begining.

The world doesnt revolve around your chatholic church, nor is your church as evil as you would like it to be.

[Thorne]

No not at all, people used to whorship multiple gods and even adopt and intermingle them all without ever so much as having their existance or non-existance cross their minds in any signifigant way in which it was recorded for posterity.

Worshiping multiple gods does not mean allowing the worship of all gods. Ancient Egyptian pharaohs would often declare one particular god to be the chief god during the pharaoh's reign, and woe betide any who did not bow down to that god. I'm not familiar with the Oriental religions, so I can't comment there, but I know that the Romans were considered unusual in that they did not force their conquered subjects to convert to the Roman religion. Once the Catholic Church took over most of Europe through the Holy Roman Empire, the Inquisition tried to make short work of the worship of any other gods. We can all see how intolerant Islam has been shown to be, and at least here in the US, the religious right has become quite vocal, and occasionally physical, about suppressing non-Christians, especially Muslims and atheists.

It's been a relatively common thread throughout the history of Western civilization, and I believe in the Aztec, Maya and Inca cultures as well.

As for which gods are oldest, a study of religion will show that virtually all religions trace their roots back to the very first historical references of gods. The names may change, and the details get blurred and mixed, but the tracks are there to be followed. Neither Christianity nor Islam, for example, would exist without the solid background of Judaism, and Judaism itself was preceded by older religions, which I'm sure were derived from still older religions. All of the gods trace back to the very dawn of history, and probably beyond.

And as for the Catholic Church, I don't want it to be evil. But modern communications and education have shown that it is indeed far more evil than anyone ever knew. History has shown that the Vatican has been a barrier to human advancement throughout its history, using its power to control and suppress large portions of the world's populations, breeding poverty and misery while claiming to fight against them.

The greatest advantage of modern communications, especially the internet, is that the kinds of atrocities the Vatican condones and even commits can no longer be kept hidden from the world. Within minutes of something happening reports are spread far and wide, disseminated irretrievably, exposing government and religious leaders for the cowardly hypocrites they truly are.

But you are right, denu: the Catholic Church is not as evil as I thought it was. It's far, far worse.

[DuncanONeil]

No, don't pull back. Your opinions are just as welcome here as anyone else's. I, for one, would like to hear what you have to say. While I can't say I always agree with your conclusions, your research of facts is generally first-rate.

And you are right in your assertion that absence of proof in not disproof. I think we can all agree on that.

But I think we can also agree that after 10,000 years of trying to prove that 2+2=5, the lack of such proof is a pretty definitive assertion that the assumption is most probably wrong.

But 2+2=10

[DuncanONeil]

Only no one's been trying to prove what your saying...the whole prove this or that thing has basically been a modern contrivance...the answer has allways been there its 42.

[Thorne]

But 2+2=10

Only if you were clumsy with that chainsaw.