More than one sub...

[TomOfSweden]

Tom, I hear what you are saying about jealousy and I have a definite opinion on that. It's also part of how we're brought up and goes hand in hand with my arguement about the 'one true love.'

Because we're brought up to believe in one true love, what if someone else gets to him/her first? Then we're left out in the cold, lost, and bereft of hope.

Zero-sum game strategy. You win means I lose. But that way of thinking, isn't the only games theory strategy. In life I try to play win-win strategies, and have found that when my winning doesn't mean you lose, jealousy goes away very quickly. When you practice win-win gamesmanship within your life, polyamoury quickly becomes not only preferable, but viable.


P.S. There is also tit-for-tat, (a favorite because I'm fond of tits)

You lost me there. I think I'm going to need some examples.

If there's a threesome couple living together, (one man and two girls, all hetero) and the man finds one of the girls is better looking than the other, (not a very unique situation) and she gets more atention than the other. Both real and percieved. How is this a win-win situation for the woman the man doesn't feel is as sexualy attractive? She might have other great qualities, but we all want sexual attention.

Just as you point out, you like tits. Women with bigger tits gets more attention from men than women with smaller tits. That's been scientificaly proven many times.

[Qmoq]

Hi there,

Well, looks like I opened a can of worms. It was partially deliberate - I didn’t understand how the three-way relationship could work, but some of the posts I’ve seen (particularly those from the subs) seem to suggest it can, if it’s managed correctly.

I may have caused offence there, it wasn’t intended. If my questions seemed to be expressed in a forthright manner, it was simply because I wanted my meaning to be clear, and not to express it in polite management-speak.

The other thing I should say is that I’m not offended by those who thought they insulted me. But I should explain my “jealousy”. I do not look at ANY gal on this site who is happy with her guy/gal (no matter how sister/brother subs she has) and think “She should be with me”. My jealousy is really the sort of jealousy that anyone not in a wholly satisfying relationship feels for someone who is.

Now I’ll respond to individual points. Apologies if I miss anyone.
dzire, you make a point that I’ve not thought about - that the dom might need a new sub to complete them. In other words, it’s not that the existing sub isn’t providing what they want, it’s that the new sub fills a gap. If I understand you correctly, and if both subs realise that they are fulfilling needs that the other sub can’t fulfil, I can see how that could work AND be satisfying with no jealousy.

Ah Desperado, if only all gals were like you... we’d probably need twice as many. Smiles.

Tojo, I agree with lisa’s post, and that would work if the subs were able to get on. In that circumstance, it could work. What if they don’t get on? What if they do perceive each other as rivals?

Aesop, I can assure you that there isn’t a LOT of jealousy. I admit that some of my questions might have been loaded, but surely you can see that if there’s a sub who’s not happy having a sister/brother sub, they might be inhibited about admitting it. Your response was as frank as my questions, so I can’t complain. I wasn’t offended, and I normally have a very thin skin. You do make a great point - one-on-one relationships, like all relationships, have a high fail rate. Sadly, we’ve seen that a lot too.

Superbitch, thanks for your post, you have a complex relationship, but the answer to your fourth question proves that these things can work.

Lily and mina, you worded my thoughts in a much lovelier and tactful way than I did! I’m just curious, but I do have a little trepidation about one-on-one subs who genuinely fear that a new sub is brought in. You expressed both wonderfully.

Aussiegirl, of all the posts on this thread, yours is the most eloquent explanation of how a one-many relationship CAN work. Despite your eloquence, it’s your final comment that really sums it up perfectly. If it works, it just works.

fantasy, you point out the tragic thing to an inexperienced dom like me that has lots of good qualities... “subs flock to those they perceive to be good, experienced doms. To those subless doms, I advise you to observe and learn from the behavior and comments of these doms with multiple subs.” It’s the word “experienced” that gets me! Never mind. That’s a different topic altogether.

Oz, again more good points. Your last one is the key: “I don't see why it shouldn't work if everyone involves is communicating.” My counter argument to this is that the existing sub - if annoyed - will hold her tongue, because she doesn’t want to question her dom. That’s really my worry about these things - the existing sub, and how she/he feels. Don’t say it doesn’t happen, and don’t say put it down to “just a lack of communication between existing sub and dom”. It’s more complicated than that in practice: I’ve seen it happen twice in secure online relationships, and I’ve heard it happen in real life. In each case that I’m thinking of, I’ve been (at least) moderately close friends with all involved, and it’s really upset me to see the existing sub go through their heartache. This CLEARLY isn’t happening with Tojo/Aesop/Desperado’s situations though.

Demon, I guess you show that each situation is different, and it’s what is “real” that counts. Hugs.

Dragon’s Muse, I love the expression “He informed that i was going to have self-esteem "in spite of myself".” Thanks for yoru comments, you reinforce (in a different way) what mina and lily say.

Finally, Tom and Oz, I like tits too. Purr.

Right, I think I’ve covered just about everyone, so I’ll leave it there.

Q xx

[Ozme52]

You lost me there. I think I'm going to need some examples.

If there's a threesome couple living together, (one man and two girls, all hetero) and the man finds one of the girls is better looking than the other, (not a very unique situation) and she gets more atention than the other. Both real and percieved. How is this a win-win situation for the woman the man doesn't feel is as sexualy attractive? She might have other great qualities, but we all want sexual attention.

Just as you point out, you like tits. Women with bigger tits gets more attention from men than women with smaller tits. That's been scientificaly proven many times.

I guess my answer to that is... so what. The one who gets less attention... maybe it's enough. I didn't say all was equal. I said everyone is happy.

Your example implies an extreme case and presumes all else is equal. I would suggest successful polys find that "on the whole" things balace out.

[Radiance]

I agree with you there delia...laughing although i am never wrong.haha

Jokes

[Timberwolf]

Cheers to that delia. One of the things that makes the lifestyle work as well as it does is the general acceptance that everyone is entitled to their own version of kink. A million flavours for a million people.

[Tojo]

I think when we got to the 'quick cum fix' & 'greed is more of an issue' this thread died.

I find that offensive & don't wish to comment further.

Aussiegirl, that was a lovely post. Thank you.
Thanks also to Q for that last post.


Tojo

[frankee]

Ok, here's my take on it.

When a Dom/me has more than one sub, it could be that each sub fulfills a need in Him/Her that the other sub doesn't

The Dom/me could love His/Hers sub(s) in different ways. i don't neccessarily think that it's out of greed or wanting to be, as they say 'the big man on campus'. (although i'm sure there a few idiots out like that)

And then there's the Dom/me that just wants one sub and it works out great, they fulfill each other's every need and want. That's great too!

i suppose ....'different strokes for different folks'. Whatever works for each relationship.


Great Thread!

[Silke]

Although it's not for me, I can actually understand poly in real life more than I can online. At least in real life, one sub doesn't necessarily take away time from another sub. All can play together and share chores, creating more time for play. But online, it seems to be a mathmatical fact that one sub does take time from another. There are only 24 hours in a day - estimating at least 9 spent at work, 7 spent sleeping, 4 spent on meals and traveling to and from work, 1 spent grooming, 2 spent with the wife and kids, that leaves an hour a day to play. I want that hour, every day. I don't want to alternate days or wait until weekends. Moreover, when a dom is thinking about another sub, that is time he isn't thinking about me. I want a dom who spends as much time thinking about me as I spend thinking about him. We've all sympathized with Silke when she has spent days without any contact and have seen how emotionally difficult that is for her. No offense, but I can't understand settling for an hour of somebody (no matter how great that hour may be), unless that dom is just a temporary stop during a search from someone who can commit his whole self.

How could I miss this thread? Oh right...work, lol.

Anyway - I'm not going to go into the whole thing, but wanted to comment on your thoughts here, fantassy.

We actually do share time, even play together, discuss work together...so it might not really be too different from real life in that aspect. Do I sometimes miss having Master all to myself? Yep, sometimes. But you know, one thing I learned from my short experience of being in a poly relationship is, that you have to be open about what you expect, what you want, what you're missing etc...then it works. When I bring up something and need to talk about it, I'll have his full attention - same with SB.

You know, for me it doesn't take anything from me...I gained something. Now I don't only have a wonderful Master but also a new sister. We're having the time of our lives, be it together or seperately. I'm sure I'd have more jealous feelings if I didn't love her so much, though. I guess we were lucky that way. And, nope, I wouldn't want to have it any other way.

Another thing - I'm sure I wouldn't have lived through the time Master was away if it hadn't been for my sis. Her love was what kept me sane as much as humanly possible. We don't battle for time, fantassy, we spend it together. As far as I know, all three of us are winners and nobody lost anything in the process.

Just my two cents.

[Timberwolf]

"I think when we got to the 'quick cum fix' & 'greed is more of an issue' this thread died.

I find that offensive & don't wish to comment further."

Why? You can't seriously sit there and tell me there aren't Doms out there using their position to, quite frankly, live every 16 year old boy's dream at the expense of certain sub's emotions. Done behind the guise of a poly relationship, of a far less legitimate variety than the kind (from what I gather) people like yourself and Aesop are involved in. If it doesn't apply to you because your relationship with your women is more serious (and the same goes to Aesop) there should be no need to get offended to something that doesn't even apply to you.

Using subs strickly for a Dom's pleasure at any cost is obviously not an exclusively poly issue by the wildest stretch of the imagination, but the way some of the Doms (who seem like perfectly respectable gentlemen who treat their women well, I might add) have simply shrugged it off without offering much in the way of an actual answer has quite frankly been the most interesting thing I've seen in this thread so far.

[Timberwolf]

To expand and clarify on the above. Again, I see no reason that a real poly relationship can't work, though I see it as a more complicated version of the "regular" relationship. But if the three (or for that matter, more) peopel involved in it all mesh well, then it can work absolutely. "Real" poly relationship meaning a legit D/s bond buiult on trust, respect etc. and not a Dom simply using his place to get ahold of as many girls as he can. And in no way am I accusing anyone in this thread of being that kind of man. Absolutely not.

But I do feel there have been a couple of answers from the Doms that almost come off with the vibe of "I'm a Dom so either (a) I'm entitled to more than one woman, or (b) I don't need to justify anything I do". I think both are weak answers. If I'm miss-reading that vibe, then I apologize. But so far the subs have been, by far, the more insightful half of this discussion.

I will say I can understand how to a point one could take offense to having their style of relationship questioned, as almost all lifestylers must face that in one degree or another at some point.

I honsetly don't mean to stir anything with any of that, just stating what I see at this time as the facts to this point. Nothing more meant than that.

[Silke]

Tojo, Timberwolf...just a friendly warning at this point. Keep the emotional finger pointing down and don't let this interesting thread die like this. This is one of those opportunities to show how open we all really are - wanting to find out how other people think, accept their kinks even if we don't share them. I hope you'll remember to keep this a friendly discussion. I'll be watching you and everybody else for that matter...

[Aesop]

You know I always find it odd when these conversations turn like this. I answered the questions because I wanted to give out some info that poly really isn't all that different than a one on one relationship, but I didn't want to enter a debate on whether or not it's good or bad and I still don't want to.

Everyone wants to be accepted for who they are and what they do. Everyone. Homosexuals fight the lack this, bdsm folks fight it, black folks, hell even men with long hair fight it sometimes.

On the flipside of that seems to be this need to put other groups in a box or something. To say they all to this or that when we know it's not true for ourselves. I do it myself now and again and when I realize it I don't like that I did it. Those comments like the one about fucking everything in town lump me in with people who do that. Since I don't, I don't like it. It's just that simple.

As for justifying myself....well I don't really need to justify myself to anyone but those I love ya know? I'll be glad to expand on the answers I gave if you like though. Just let me know which ones you'd like more info on.

[Aussiegirl1]

Aussiegirl, of all the posts on this thread, yours is the most eloquent explanation of how a one-many relationship CAN work. Despite your eloquence, it’s your final comment that really sums it up perfectly. If it works, it just works.

Thanks Q.

I am glad you found my post to be elequent, I know I tried hard to think about my response. I also agree that last comment says it all!

I also understand that you are just trying to understand something you have not experienced. I fully understand that, I have spent this year doing that!

Aussiegirl, that was a lovely post. Thank you.

Tojo, it means a lot to me that you liked what I posted too. You know how I feel about our time together and how much it means to me.

[Timberwolf]

"As for justifying myself....well I don't really need to justify myself to anyone but those I love ya know?"

Justify might be the wrong term. Because I'm in a similar situation in a one on one myself. Surrounded by vanillas, in love with a woman I have a D/s relationship with.

And you *are* right, I don't have to justify a damn thing to anyone but her and me.

I by no means want to see this turn ugly. I can see why it can be a touchy topic, if I've ruffled anyone the wrong way I do apologize for that.

[frankee]

Tojo, Timberwolf...just a friendly warning at this point. Keep the emotional finger pointing down and don't let this interesting thread die like this. This is one of those opportunities to show how open we all really are - wanting to find out how other people think, accept their kinks even if we don't share them. I hope you'll remember to keep this a friendly discussion. I'll be watching you and everybody else for that matter...

mmmmm i love it when she gets in the 'bossy' mode LOL!

[Tojo]

Tojo, Timberwolf...just a friendly warning at this point. Keep the emotional finger pointing down and don't let this interesting thread die like this.

Actually I was just repeating what Aesop said...


Tojo

[elfstone8402]

it's all about love and meeting needs. So a married sub unwilling to leave the marriage may only be available part-time to her Master. It's regular, but part-time. So the Master has another part-time sub. Why is this judged?

I do not believe any one person will meet all your needs, so I think the idea of forced monogamy is greedy, because someone has issues with sharing. Kind of like the divorced guys who shoot their ex's because that way no other guys will have her either.

Love is in the moment. It cannot be limited I have been in relationships where I lived in a dorm of women and never touched them because my love was elsewhere and i had no DESIRE to, but not because it was a should or a should not. I have had 2 subs at once.

Never had a slave maybe that's different.

[slave_lisa]

The world is based on a matter of opinion.... that has a been a personal saying of mine for a long time and it is all to true.

Frankly I find it rather condesending that some people cannot accept/understand that others may think of life differently. If someone decideds to have multiple subs then so be it, let that be there life and let them deal with the outcome... what place is it of ours to question/demeen such a desicion?

Really this topic never died... sorry to say it only went to the dogs. For such open minded people you sure discuse opinion alot. I realize alot of this is experssing those opinions but I also see the subtle, hidden (and not so hidden) remarks that (intentional or not) harm and undermine others. This I take exception too. One should always choose there words carefully and/or make clear that they mean no judgment/harm/insult... everything else is free game huh...

In my opinion multiple sub relationships can work perfectly... it just requires willingness, openness, good judgement, patience, love, and consistancy. Really... when you look at it... its like any other relation we as humans ever make... weither its that guy talking on his cell phone while driving, the lady at the cashier counting pennies, or the third sub to your 'collection' (to use the word lightly)

....And we wonder why the world is falling to pieces....

[Tojo]

Excellent post sweetie.


Tojo

[TomOfSweden]

I guess my answer to that is... so what. The one who gets less attention... maybe it's enough. I didn't say all was equal. I said everyone is happy.

Your example implies an extreme case and presumes all else is equal.

Of the BDSM polys I know of this is the most common situation that has to be dealt with all the time. Either a man with two women or with a woman and two men. Not as a permanent arrangement but as something that spontaneusly is created and disolved due to everybodies conflicting needs.

I would suggest successful polys find that "on the whole" things balace out.

That's quite an assumtion which actually may be true for some polys, but I doubt it's true for all, or even all that common.

Here's an assumtion I have, all people are greedy and want their needs fulfilled. Jelously apears when we think we're entitled to more than we're getting and some people, (destructive subs) deny themselves the needs they have. For any healthy relationship all people involved needs to have their needs fulfilled. This is hard enough with just two people.

To be absolutely clear on this. When I use the expression, "having needs fulfilled" I don't mean getting everything we want. Sometimes what we need is getting denied the things we want. We know our needs are fulfilled when we are happy.

I don't think I'm an emotional train-wreck who can't handle my emotions. I believe that I'm quite a well grounded and level headed guy, and that the women I've had the good fortune to have relationships with have had their needs fulfilled.

I'm certain the poly life-style works great for non-BDSM users, because there's not the need for the same level of trust or attention to one anothers needs. I've still not heard of any BDSM poly relationship that works for any length of time.

edit: I'm not saying it's impossible. I just can't wrap my head around how it actually would work in practice. Polyamoury implies no control or ownership which I would think would make D/s contradictory?

[Silke]

*sighs* You know, guys and gals...I actually LOVE this thread. It's one of those subjects that have such great potential to let us learn something new. I'm not talking about convincing anyone that our individual point of view is right or wrong...I'm talking about getting in the head of someone else and trying to understand how they feel and think.

It breaks my heart to see people offending and getting offended left and right. It's not necessary - nobody wants to take anything away from you personally, you know?

I love this thread and would like to actually contribute more of my own experience...but right now, I feel like whatever I'm going to say will be beaten down. Go figure, eh? I never thought this would happen to me here and it makes me sad.

If I see any more bashing going on here (and this goes to everyone now), I'll have to close this thread and it'll break my heart - it's one of the most interesting ones I've seen here in a long time. Please don't let it die.

[TomOfSweden]

I love this thread and would like to actually contribute more of my own experience...but right now, I feel like whatever I'm going to say will be beaten down. Go figure, eh? I never thought this would happen to me here and it makes me sad.

If I see any more bashing going on here (and this goes to everyone now), I'll have to close this thread and it'll break my heart - it's one of the most interesting ones I've seen here in a long time. Please don't let it die.

I hope your not talking about me. If I've offended anyone I apologise. That was not my intention. I'm trying to understand, and not force my views on others.

[Silke]

Talking about my general feel when reading this thread...I just wanted everyone to question yourselves and check where you might be going over the top (on both sides of the obvious fence here) - not talking to anyone in particular right now.

I'll be glad to post my views and I'm sure so are some of the others who've decided to become a little more quiet here. But as long as I have an uneasy feeling in the pit of my stomach that I'll be eaten alive, I'll stick to being a super mod and do my job. If tempers calm down a little, I'll gladly step back to posting my personal views. Believe me, I like that better, lol.

[Qmoq]

I actually LOVE this thread. It's one of those subjects that have such great potential to let us learn something new.

Honey, rest assured that I have already learned something new. Genuinely, I was sceptical but willing to see how a multi-sub relationship could work. And even before you posted, I could see how it could happen. I know it's not for everyone, but I'm no longer a sceptic. In fact, SB mentioned a multi-dom relationship, which makes her happy.

So, even if this thread does descend into a torrent of name-calling and overly judgemental statements (and I don't think it has yet, but it's early) then I won't mind because I've learned something.

I will mind, however, if people get hurt by this thread. It would probably stop me posting any more "controversial" thoughts.

Hugs and chocolate for all.

Q xx

[frankee]

Don't be sad Silke.*hugs* It's a great thread that was started and i would like to see more of you posts on this subject.

Q...did you say chocolate? i will definitely behave then

[shins]

When angel and I started talking, I made it clear to her early on that I had a vision of another subbie, and if we were to get involved, she could expect that one day, if we ever find her...(hint, hint) she will have a sub-sister. We talked about it a fair amount, and while at first she hesitated, she eventually found acceptance and benefit in the idea.

Why do I need this? I was thinking about this thread while watching tv yesterday. angel was gently rubbing my scalp, and i realized that she couldnt rub my feet as long as she was up near my head, lol. But if she had a sub-sister.....

Seriously though, the amount of controversy that this topic has stirred among our family has surprised me. Out of any sort of group gathering in life, the people in our lifestyle tend to be more acceptant of others. Do I think it's possible to have a poly/bdsm dynamic? Yes, without doubt. Would it be hard to manage? Certainly. Lots of us search all our lives for 'the one'. It stands to reason that finding two 'the one's' would be much more difficult. Difficult, but not impossible. angel and I may never get our wish for a sub-sister. We've sampled a few and never made it past the first few rounds of emails and chats, but we won't stop the search, because that is the dynamic that we both desire. At the same time, lack of finding her will not ruin what we have together, and we are both content with each other whether we find her or not.

[Dragon's muse]

Even after having been in the lifestyle since my late teens i am still amazed at times. Poly V. Mono is still the most divisive topic i have found. In almost every other area, most everyone involved can agree to disagree and move on. But bring the Poly/Mono question up, and so many jump to the ramparts with their guns blazing. Not just here, i have been through this same topic in real-life groups, and it got a lot uglier a lot quicker.

i wonder sometimes why this topic in particular brings up such defensive responses?

Ponderingly,
muse

[dzire2pleeze]

Seems to me this is how wars begin.

At this moment, I am thinking of Q and how awful he must feel. All he did was start an interesting thread, seeking answers for himself. His quest to understand a lifestyle that was different (not wrong) in his eyes began with an innocent question.

This is not about "I do it this way, so it's the only right way." If more people would just "live and let live" methinks what a wonderful world this would be.

~sighs heavily~

[frankee]

i agree with d2p.

Poor Q was just asking about this because he wasnted to have his questions answered not out of any disrespect or to start a war.

i think it's a great thread and more people should contribute to it.

[Silke]

You know, I'm glad I wasn't the only one feeling this went too far and is hoping we'll get back on track. From the reactions so far, I'm thinking we still have a chance for peace without everyone retreating into their shells and the topic dying.

Q - never feel afraid to post hot topics - in fact, I hope we'll have many more. It's part of my job to step in when tempers get overheated, that's what moderating means. It's tricky to do when you're also posting on the subject or intending to - but I'm hoping I'm managing the balance act and didn't only kick out to one side. If anybody feels I did, feel free to kick back privately.

I'll share my own views some more if the seas stay calm for a bit.

Dragon's muse - I never realized this was such an explosive topic. And like you, I'd love to learn why it is this way. I, for one, don't even feel the need to justify myself. I'll be glad to share my views if I feel there is honest interest, and if someone doesn't like them for themselves, that's fine by me. I'm the one making those decisions and they only have to work for me and the people involved. I don't need a general absolution for the life I lead.