poll for deleting snuff stories

[Mobius]

Originally posted by BruceBoxer
I concur of no censorship--use the codes and don't read what you don't want to--kinda like how I turn off Rush Limbaugh when he's on a tirade...

Ditto Keep the snuff and the gay F/m storys

[Finding_Fantasy]

I am of the opinion that if you have to delete one "offensive thing" then you have to delete them all. I am sure that there is one person who finds at least one thing offensive in the stories, and if we were to delete that subject everytime some had a problem...well the problem then would be no stories.

I agree, use the codes, get familiar with what they mean so that you can know what the stories involve BEFORE you open it.

[agp_millie]

What more can you say than agree 100%.

i had started to write a long speel but, what for?

i'm off to the Kennels now, then our Dairy. What a beautiful, sunny day.


Bye (smile) ... then the vegetable garden.

[VLMarquette]

Again a quote, and a rather good one at that.
_______________________
Keep everyting I am of the opinion that if you have to delete one "offensive thing" then you have to delete them all. I am sure that there is one person who finds at least one thing offensive in the stories, and if we were to delete that subject everytime some had a problem...well the problem then would be no stories.

I agree, use the codes, get familiar with what they mean so that you can know what the stories involve BEFORE you open it.


______________________


See that was blunt and to the point. Say what you mean, and mean what you say. I like that in a person.



V.L. Marquette

[Finding_Fantasy]

I always say what I mean and mean what I say....even if it gets me into trouble sometimes *chuckles* Basically, I can see it from a writer's point of view, even though I don't write erotica. I write what I like and there are sufficient amounts of people who like my work, so I keep on going, despite the nay-sayers

[VLMarquette]

This quoting everyone is getting a bit tiresome. But the only way I know that every one else knows what I am talking about is to quote. So I quote.
___________________________
I always say what I mean and mean what I say....even if it gets me into trouble sometimes *chuckles* Basically, I can see it from a writer's point of view, even though I don't write erotica. I write what I like and there are sufficient amounts of people who like my work, so I keep on going, despite the nay-sayers

__________________________________________________ __

Well I do happen to be a writer of erotica, and so I am personally interested in the censorship thing. No, I am not big on snuff, never could see anything sexy about it. But 'hey' what ever floats you boat, ya know?


ps. hon, I usually go by Ronnie, the only reason I signed off as V.L. Marquette is it somehow makes what ever I am saying look a tad more serious.


Ronnie

[drake7]

None of these stories are real. If they don't appeal to you (as they don't particularly appeal to me) then don't read them. To remove any stories from a site designed to let people write about "Kinky" things is, as the title of this post says, taking the "Kink" out of "Kinky".

Drake.

[agp_millie]

.
Unquestionably, the most wicked and gruesome story I have ever read in recent times is 'three ladies at sea' by Dante. I think it is available thru' BDSM Libraries.
At over 300kb. of many poor females being sexually destroyed for the apparent pleasure of the paying customers. Depicting horrid situations that I would NEVER even contemplate in real Life. Infact, I would probably end up deceased in a most unpleasant way. I read every brilliantly written word. Took a week and I guiltily enjoyed it.

Let the interminal saga of 'snuff' rage on. (smile)

[Spitman]

As a writer whose stories are coded in the snuff category, I want to say that I understand and sympathise with people who dislike reading extremely violent stories in which women are brutally attacked and killed. I feel the same way.

So why are my stories coded as snuff? My subject matter deals with stronger female fantasies, usually consensual or at least semi-consensual, where the outcome is often the death of a female character in the story. I don't feel that my writing is on the same planet as the more objectionable variety, but all the same, I want to give readers some warning, and snuff is the only code this site has available for that purpose.

I do object to the suggestion that 'snuff' material is necessarily badly written. Good writing exists in every category on this site, including 'snuff'. There is also a lot of stuff in that category that will not be to everyone's taste.

I also have codes that I avoid, such as 'scat' which instantly turns me off.

The reason for having a personal dislike for a particular story is not always a question of degree, but one of attitude or philosophy. I don't get on with stuff about abusing women, especially where a woman is abused for the selfish gratification of the abuser. The abuse does not have to involve mutilation or death for me to find it objectionable. I don't complain about it. I just avoid it, and I also avoid threads in the Forum that deal with things I don't like.

What I am interested in happens to be stuff that women like, and it is a fact that many women enjoy violent fantasies. Many prefer them non-consensual but consensual, submissive fantasies that emphasise the female perspective are far more interesting to me, psychologically.

Removing that kind of fantasy material entirely would remove stuff that is enjoyed by many people of both sexes. It is important to understand that these stories are fiction. They come from the imagination of the author, but cannot be assumed to represent the behaviour of the author in everyday life.

People enjoy these stories for the same kind of reasons that they like to watch horror movies, or go on scary rides in theme parks.

[LaJan]

Spitman, it's clear from your response that at least one of the snuff story writers writes well. I appreciate that you replied to this topic with such eloquence. (Did I spell that correctly? LOL!)

As another onf of those writers who write non-consensual stories, I agree with much of what you said. I have received numerous requests for private stories and some for public posts of that variety as well. However, I simply can't add anything like snuff into a story I write and I've never been asked to.

Obviously, the rape stories I have written and posted here involve brutality and violence. I'd be a fool not to admit as much. But I have yet to get a request for a person to be "killed". Are you saying that there are women you know that actually want to read about the death of a woman in a story? If so, you are getting requests or responses I certainly haven't seen. Regarding your writing not being "on the same planet as the more objectionable variety", I really wouldn't know since I can't compare stories I haven't read! But I'd love to hear your take on what makes a story one of "the more objectionable variety". Are there stories in here that deal with more violence than death??? LOL!

I find this comment: "The reason for having a personal dislike for a particular story is not always a question of degree, but one of attitude or philosophy" to be particularly apt since few people will disagree with it. It's just that the degree you write about is death. So, it would seem as though you truly see the opinions of the anti-snuff movement but fail to see that your argument is precisely the reason snuff stories are such dreaded stories for many people: there just isn't a commonly held philsophy that murder is a great turn-on, regardless of how well it's written.

Spitman, I, for one, appreciate hearing your opinion as I haven't heard too many of them from your point-of-view. In fact, yours is the ONLY one that actually makes the point without just hammering in a 'gut feeling' of preferences. Unfortunately, your opinion of the merits of snuff stories seems to be the only one available as well. Does that seem to indicate a serious amount of interest in reading or writing them?

I will never - EVER - begrudge your right to write whatever you choose to write and I appreciate the fact that you are careful to code your stories correctly. I simply see that you and I must agree to disagree on the worth of this form of freedom of expression. And long live our right to say and write whatever we choose.

As a writer whose stories are coded in the snuff category, I want to say that I understand and sympathise with people who dislike reading extremely violent stories in which women are brutally attacked and killed. I feel the same way.

So why are my stories coded as snuff? My subject matter deals with stronger female fantasies, usually consensual or at least semi-consensual, where the outcome is often the death of a female character in the story. I don't feel that my writing is on the same planet as the more objectionable variety, but all the same, I want to give readers some warning, and snuff is the only code this site has available for that purpose.

I do object to the suggestion that 'snuff' material is necessarily badly written. Good writing exists in every category on this site, including 'snuff'. There is also a lot of stuff in that category that will not be to everyone's taste.

I also have codes that I avoid, such as 'scat' which instantly turns me off.

The reason for having a personal dislike for a particular story is not always a question of degree, but one of attitude or philosophy. I don't get on with stuff about abusing women, especially where a woman is abused for the selfish gratification of the abuser. The abuse does not have to involve mutilation or death for me to find it objectionable. I don't complain about it. I just avoid it, and I also avoid threads in the Forum that deal with things I don't like.

What I am interested in happens to be stuff that women like, and it is a fact that many women enjoy violent fantasies. Many prefer them non-consensual but consensual, submissive fantasies that emphasise the female perspective are far more interesting to me, psychologically.

Removing that kind of fantasy material entirely would remove stuff that is enjoyed by many people of both sexes. It is important to understand that these stories are fiction. They come from the imagination of the author, but cannot be assumed to represent the behaviour of the author in everyday life.

People enjoy these stories for the same kind of reasons that they like to watch horror movies, or go on scary rides in theme parks.

[Curtis]

Something Spitman didn't mention in his post was that his snuff is consentual, involving people (usually women) who get turned on by being eaten. There are at least two other authors who post similar stories in the Library. Before I was directed to the Library, I found an entire site made up of nothing but cannibalism stories (mostly consentual). Hundreds of them. Unfortunately, I've lost the URL for it (and for a superhero S&M site).

[rob.wilson]

Is'nt "snuff" the ultimate limit? I seriously doubt anyone in their right mind would want to be killed for the sexual pleasure of another. Nor do I think anyone, again in their right mind, would want to kill someone for their sexual pleasure.

It's kind of like a rape fanasty, just because you have one does'nt mean your going to go out and rape someone - or want to be actually raped.

Some of the stories that involve snuff are pretty good, the Gor parody comes to mind, but some of it is truly awful.

Personally I find some of dolcetts artwork to be interesting, but have no desire to commit such acts.

[Warrior]

Ditto Keep the snuff and the gay F/m storys

F/m stories are not gay. Female + male = straight. And F/m stories are my favourite. There should be more of them, not less!

I say keep the snuff; just because it doesn't appeal to some doesn't mean those who enjoy reading/writing it should miss out. Snuff is a turn off for me, and I generally avoid it (not hard to do, there isn't that much of it). But I have read a couple (I have an open mind and like to read things at least once). Same with scat - it's a total turn off, but when mixed with a good long story with more enjoyable elements (such as F/m), it can add to the plot and character development (or be forgotten). And (very rarely) I will read a story with something I dislike as the main theme, just for the idea behind it (the idea has to be relatively new to me).

Is'nt "snuff" the ultimate limit? I seriously doubt anyone in their right mind would want to be killed for the sexual pleasure of another. Nor do I think anyone, again in their right mind, would want to kill someone for their sexual pleasure.

Too right mate, fantasy is a way of experiencing things which in ordinary life would be impossible or the consequences too undesirable. Murdering someone has the undesirable consequences of permanently damaging a healthy persons mind (take people who have gone to war) and the huge risk of life imprisonment. Therefore most murderers have damaged minds. The few who don't are ones who are of sound mind and convince themselves murder is the only way to protect themselves (and it really was the only way, i.e. they aren't paranoid). Pre-meditated murders (in peace-time) are often (if not always) done by people with damaged minds.

I believe that we should take away very few choices. Even then, most of the time we have only imposed negative consequences and haven't really taken away the choice (e.g. murder, people still CAN murder, but they CHOOSE not to).

NOTE: I have read a bit on philosophy and pyschology, but I am not a reliable source, so don't quote what I have written above as fact.

[Spitman]

LaJan,

You obviously haven't picked up that death and murder are not at all the same thing. Murder implies that someone has carried out a brutal attack on a victim, but death can occur without any such thing happening, and in the case of consensual participation in a scenario that results in death, there does not have to be another participant at all. However suicide does not describe it accurately either, since the participant may simply have a different priority, namely her own sexual gratification. I think that explains sufficiently well why my interest is very different from what anyone would justifiably describe as murder.

[Spitman]

Personally I find some of dolcetts artwork to be interesting, but have no desire to commit such acts.

Neither have I. The fact that you make that comment suggests that you expect erotic fiction to be a reflection of what you would do in everyday life.

This is all about fantasy. Fantasy does not have to have limits, precisely because it is not about anything that the writer, or the reader for that matter, might condone, be tempted to do or even take pleasure in, if it happened in the everyday world.

[AndrewBlack]

I agree, it's the 'fantasy' element that is key. I find a good snuff story very erotic, especially nc and nasty ones. For me it represents one of the most potent acts in erotic fiction, I can entirely divorce this from reality, (although I initially found my fantasies extremely disturbing) as I believe we define ourselves by what we DO rather than what we THINK and I find myself doing the opposite in real life. The way I see it is that you get the best of both worlds this way.

[redEva]

As with anything else here or in life in general – don’t like it? Don’t take part in it! For as long as it does not harm anyone (and written fantasy dos not!) why would we deprive those that do enjoy it? There is plenty I do not care for and that even disgust me. No one forces me to read. Everyone of us should enjoy what appeals to them and leave others to their own tastes.

[fetish101]

The only thing I can see a reason for me to boycott reading a story is autobiographical accounts by actual serial killers, like the disgusting shit that the woman who married Danny Rollings peddles. It isn't right to let them profit by the real sufferings of others. In fact, there's a law against it.

I was just reading through this thread again, and I think that law pertains to the actual criminals. There is no such law pertaining to an independent (even if she did marry him) to write a book and sell it. She did not commit the crimes.

[peachers]

i feel people should be aloud to post snuff stories
even thou i don t like most of them.
i have read a few stories with a small snuff content
and if in keeping with a storie line i feel it should be aloud.
we would lose a lot of good writers.

[putz]

I'd have to agree with your concerns about the level of violence that we see written. It is not much different than the level of violence that we see elsewhere in our culture. The written word has always been the most powerful of mediums, and the present is no different.

Luckily we were born free people and don't have to listen to or view things that disturb us or that we simply care to shut out. That's about personal choice and resposibility. Don't blame others for what you decided to view.

putz

Hello,
I would like to say that the snuff category in stories should be removed... It hurts me a lot, and I don't understand why it is permitted to speak about that stuff on this site... It is going too far...
Regards
Hairdresser

[GaryWilcox]

I was just reading through this thread again, and I think that law pertains to the actual criminals. There is no such law pertaining to an independent (even if she did marry him) to write a book and sell it. She did not commit the crimes.

She wrote a second book, after they lost in court on that book, on her own. So I guess she discovered the same law-skirting idea you mentioned and made US$10.50 for herself.

As I've said before, I've met her. If ever there was a human being deserving of death from a stray frozen block of urine falling from a commercial jet airliner, it is that horrible, goulish little woman.

That's what it is to be free. You have to take the obscene with pure, and manners aren't realy required. Good thing community standards don't behave that way. If I knew then what I know now, I would have refused any part in her work.

[Jane SC]

As with anything else here or in life in general – don’t like it? Don’t take part in it! For as long as it does not harm anyone (and written fantasy dos not!) why would we deprive those that do enjoy it? There is plenty I do not care for and that even disgust me. No one forces me to read. Everyone of us should enjoy what appeals to them and leave others to their own tastes.

Having just read through (most of) this thread, I have to agree with all that Gary says and also with my friend redEva; the above quote from her sums up my feelings perfectly.

Whatever fiction I read is my own choice. In real life, whatever happens between myself and my Owner in private is OUR choice and, as a snuff story might shock and horrify my mother, so my life with my Owner would have just the same effect. Thus, as she is a highly intelligent woman and has obviously 'read the preamble' to our lives, she almost certainly has a good idea about what goes on between Him and me. But she does not 'read the book' and choses not inquire about our private life in just the same way as I don't read stories or books which I feel would upset or nauseate me. It is a real life case of 'Live and Let Live'.

Mind you, the MOST horrific stuff I am forced to read are the questions posed in my tax return forms - no escaping those obscenities!!

Love
Jane.

[j]

Deleting snuff stories? Because they offend you? Well I'm offended by any story with a hairy twat. Start the deletion!

Jinn has the completely right idea of an open end repository. If he starts deleting on any criteria he'll also start assuming artistic responsibility for content. It's not as if they were actual murder confessions and/or incitations! Fiction is fiction.

[LaJan]

Hi Jeanne. I am new to most BDSM lifestyle practices but you certainly don't sound very "sub" to me! Could it be that you are forcefully located inside a teacher? LOL!

When this thread started, I thought it was meant to express a personal opinion and not expecting censorship to be the goal. Since that time, I have come to another conclusion: the first comments were stated to ask for the removal of a topic considered vilely offensive to some (possibly many) readers.

Sure, as soon as anything is removed based upon someone’s personal feelings of offensiveness, all things are in jeopardy of removal. The very nature of free speech is threatened by the slightest censorship.

However, this site as well as most others (and ALL the legal sites!) bans material each and every day because it contains child pornography – almost universally accepted as heinous and vile. Indeed, censorship is alive, well and actively promoted as the ONLY way to handle child pornography. Would you consider including such material for the sake of free speech? Would you consider its inclusion even if it weren’t illegal? Do your comments: (“It's not as if they were actual murder confessions and/or incitations [sic]! Fiction is fiction.”) consider that fictional child pornography need not be confessional yet is STILL offensive enough to remain illegal regardless of free speech rights?

As soon as the “magic words” are typed, the BDSMLibrary’s Administrator and Moderator(s) will need to interject and restate the site’s policy on child porn. I’m sorry this reply will make that necessary yet again, but it’s obvious that some things are simply not acceptable in any way, shape or form. So, for someone to be offended by snuff (or a hairy twat!) is a freedom of speech issue as well. Many of the responses to the original post were attacks of the rights of individuals to say whatever they choose to say. Yours was not. However, seeing both sides of the censorship debate (whether it’s about snuff or anything else) can’t be reduced to something as simple as ‘universal free speech’.

PS I happen to love twats of all persuasions so please let me know what you find offensive about the hairy ones. Seriously, I’d love to know. No bull. Really. Please?

Deleting snuff stories? Because they offend you? Well I'm offended by any story with a hairy twat. Start the deletion!

Jinn has the completely right idea of an open end repository. If he starts deleting on any criteria he'll also start assuming artistic responsibility for content. It's not as if they were actual murder confessions and/or incitations! Fiction is fiction.

[fetish101]

Child pornography: pictures or video depicting underage minors sexually. ie: actual kids, actual exploitation.

Writing stories about absolutely anything: Fictional content for the sole purpose of fantasy. ie: no real people, no exploitation of any kind.

It is my belief that no story should be censored on this site, even if it contained children 2 years old! I wouldn't be turned on by a story like that, and probably wouldn't read it (perhaps out of curiosity), but then again, like everyone has said, that is precisely why the story codes are there.

You cannot compare these two things, they just aren't the same thing at all!

Just because someone like Jeanne has opinions and is brave enough to stand up and be heard does not make her any less of a submissive. Submissive does not mean silent. Furthermore, she is not your submissive, so why should she be submissive to you or anyone other than her dominant?

[BDSM_Tourguide]

Sure, as soon as anything is removed based upon someone’s personal feelings of offensiveness, all things are in jeopardy of removal. The very nature of free speech is threatened by the slightest censorship.

You mean like the Pledge of Allegiance from pubic schools?

consider that fictional child pornography need not be confessional yet is STILL offensive enough to remain illegal regardless of free speech rights?

Child pornography means that an actual child must be either engaged in a sexual act or must be lewdly displayed. Animations or drawings of children, stories and prose featuring supposedly "underage" content is not illegal, in the sense that, since there is no model, there is no crime.

Certain images and depictions might violate local decency laws, but from a federal standpoint, as long as a real child is not used, the subject matter is legal.

However, to clarify BDSM Library's standpoint on this issue: Stories posted to the story site containing "young" characters are fine. However, child pictures, even including the legal ones (anime, tasteful nudes, etc) are not allowed on the forums or the photo library and will be removed and the member posting them will be banned without warning.

[BDSM_Tourguide]

Just because someone like Jeanne has opinions and is brave enough to stand up and be heard does not make her any less of a submissive. Submissive does not mean silent. Furthermore, she is not your submissive, so why should she be submissive to you or anyone other than her dominant?

Settle down. I doubt he meant anything by it.

[fetish101]

Settle down. I doubt he meant anything by it.

Yes..I really must watch how I post things. I didn't mean anything by it either, it just seems to come out that way. I think I'll spend more time reading how my posts come off, instead of how effectively I want to make my point.

[Spitman]

I don't know how we got onto this topic from 'poll for deleting snuff stories'.

By definition 'stories' are fiction, so the issue of illegal pictorial pornography does not arise, and although I have no doubt that there are snuff stories with young characters, that was not the issue raised in this thread. I think the original reason for starting this thread was a personal dislike of the idea of snuff as an acceptable category for erotic literature in the bdsm library.

It is rather like having a single vote to ban headscarves in schools, fox hunting, coloured ice cream and adult magazines, or not.

There are several threads already in existence that discuss various aspects of underage characters and their legality, and I'm sure there will be more. BDSM Library has a perfectly acceptable policy on that topic as has been explained here, but that has nothing to do with snuff stories.

[j]

I think Fetish has prefectly answered Lajan's first remarks to me. In my own personal collection, maintained for my own pleasure, I don't have any fiction with 2-year olds, but I would have no objection on seeing it on the Library. Seeing a video or photo would drive me to grab the phone.

I AM a sub, albeit with vividly expressed opinions.

And my fetish about hairy twats is (as far as I can fathom) a way of ensuring that, in any scene I vicariously enjoy, the 'victims' are not Ms Next Door Housewife, but a saucy slut who at least has the capacity to appreciate the erotic side of her predicament (even if she does not! and even if the depilation is quite recent - it does wonders for the girl's attitude). Also I think hair hinders the audience's sight and blunts the executioners' tools.

I always view with much favor stories where authors take care to offer bare-naked twats to the gentle attentions of sadists. This generally means the overall fun will be exquisite and imaginative.

Why should I not have my own prejudices, quirks and fetishes?