So long but not Goodbye

[Psynymph]

i realize all the stuff surrounding this particular situation is none of my business nor do i probably even have the slightest idea of what's really going on.....

but i'm not blind. ever since returning to the forums after my couple months absence there has been rumors, whispers, circulating throughout the forums, chat rooms and other places. rumors about certain people "taking over", over stepping their boundaries, ruling like dictators.

i am not one to listen to rumors. i will not take one person's word over another until i see proof to back up anything that is said.

so upon hearing these rumors, i simply filed them away in my head and went about my normal business here, on the forums and in the chatroom.

but proof has been significantly shown and quite plainly so.

yet it doesn't seem like anything will be done.

i know it seems i'm talking in riddles, but there will be several who will know exactly what i'm talking about.

on the group i recently started, a local bdsm group, i started a thread promoting my favorite bdsm websites. this site, the library, was at the top of the list. i spoke of the open-mindedness and un-judgmental attitude of this site. how everyone was very welcoming to all and it was a great place to learn and grow.

i now feel almost like a liar for having said those things, because it's obviously not so.

i don't have a problem with the forums. not yet, no proof. but i will openly say i do have a problem with how the chat room is being run.

i realize that this thread may be deleted or closed. i realize that i may be banned. i don't care because what i have to say needs to be said.

i don't care that so and so owns the chat room. it pisses me off that this site would support such tyranny.

haveing a chat room where you must watch what you say because you could be banned at the whim of a single person..... what happened to freedom of speech?

i have no desire to be apart of a community where i have to watch what i say for fear of being banned simply because i pissed somebody off. nor do i desire to be apart of a community that would support such a thing.

i realize there are probably all kinds of details people will think i don't know about, but either way, it's blatantly obvious.

so as Flaming-Redhead said.... i no longer will be seen in the chat room. Nor will AzraelCoburn... i speak for Him in case this thread gets closed.

i have no desire to start anything or to "sling mud", but as i said.... what i'm saying simply needs to be said in a public forum.

cariad i'm sorry, but it needed to be said publicly.

[Ozme52]

Either I'm off-balance and not seeing the forest for the trees... or there actually isn't any conspiracy going on.

hmmm. I'll vote for "no conspiracy." I know I've been a bit absent getting ready to bicycle across the USA, but I haven't noted a particular problem here, nor in chat.

So will someone clue me in with some specific info. I hate being left out of the conspiracies...

Tongue firmly rooted in my cheek,
I remain....

[AzraelCoburn]

I myself do not wish to get involved in the tangled web of he said she said that every admin board seems to find them selfs in. However I would like to state something so simple that I hope it does not go over looked.

I do not know the details of what exactly has happened here or is happening. From my stay I have rather enjoyed this place. Great company roams about the halls of such a forum. I have seen this complaint forming though and in my own unbiast opinion, I think a topic such as this should run steady and strong. No i do not mean a topic where mudslinging and verbal bashing starts, but a topic where the members who keep this place flourishing can actually express their fears and concerns. As an admin of a server, I myself learned the lesson that forums and chats are not souly for those who created it. It is for the people who visit that we put ourself to the break of exhausting limits.

Master Azrael

[nk_lion]

Either I'm off-balance and not seeing the forest for the trees... or there actually isn't any conspiracy going on.

hmmm. I'll vote for "no conspiracy." I know I've been a bit absent getting ready to bicycle across the USA, but I haven't noted a particular problem here, nor in chat.

So will someone clue me in with some specific info. I hate being left out of the conspiracies...

Tongue firmly rooted in my cheek,
I remain....

I'm in the same boat as you

I've been on the chat room once about a month ago, where I only saw 11 people online. What happens in the chatroom?!?!
Aren't the chatrooms moderated similar to these boards? (I really don't know, not trying to sound sarcastic or anything else)

[Dorkalicious]

Eh, I'm not exactly sure what is going on...but I'm happy someone got their feelings out.

I don't think that this should turn into some kind of flaming fight either, but I do think people should get their feelings out about whatever is going on. Maybe it'll eventually get ironed out....

=/

[MajesticFae]

Granted I've been gone for months, but I sincerely hope that there is no conspiracy.

[gagged_Louise]

Have been hearing rumours about this for some time, and the chatroom talk that Redhead posted didn't look very nice at all, but isn't this ill-will more something happening precisely in the chat? The chat room runs on its own apart from the forum, although with much the same people guesting.
I honestly haven't seen any signs of tyranny and clique mentality here on the boards.

[Psynymph]

i'm not looking to start a uprising or to convince people of anything.....

i'm just laying my thoughts out there.

just my own thoughts.

just as you and everyone else with surely post their own thoughts. and that was exactly the point to my post.

[_ID_]

I don't know if people pay attention to the shit I write, but you may have noticed on page 3 of the vent thread where I mention being able to ignore people of elevated status here on the forms. Additionally I also tried to post a vent, and because it was perceived as a flame, that was deleted. Then I tried to post a follow up to the ending of a relationship I had, I didn't mention any specifics, but I did state some facts. That post was also deleted.

So not only is there some tyranny and hyper-sensitive censorship in the chat room, it also occurs here on the forms.

Now I know I've been close to getting a ban warning or being banned because of my posts, and I will probably get that now due to this post.

If that happens, those of you who read this before it happens, I hope you see what is going on, before it is covered up.

Due to all of what I have stated above, I had to request to be removed from the thread leader of the A-Z thread. I also have gone nearly silent due to all of the above stated items.

I will remain, so long as I am not booted, as I feel it is important to give good information when needed, and appropriate.

May each of you feel enlightened to the undercurrent of hypocrisies that have been occurring.

Good day, and good luck!

[nk_lion]

I've never felt restricted on these boards yet, though I've been here for a fraction of the time. Perhaps a discussion should be open to allow members to express their discontent with what has been happening here. I'd hate for you guys and others to be banned or leave since you have often expressed you're ideas, opinion and knowledge for so many.

[~hellish one~]

agreed, Psy. i will not return to the chatroom either.

i have no beef with the forums though. i love the forums! thankfully the two are unrelated.

that is all i will say on the matter.

[Curious_1]

Out of respect for Rabbit and cariad I have said nothing.

BUT...
HUGS to
Kane
Mastermark
cat
Flaming_Redhead

You are the best!
Curi

[LikelySuspect]

I have left the chat and will not return. This has happened quite awhile ago. I'm feeling an ill will spreading to the forums as well.
This is a place I go for fun. It is not my job. I do not get paid. Therefore, if I feel uncomfortable, I will cease attendance.
I hate the fact that what I say in the forums, and what I have said in the chat room have to be censored. We are all (legally) adults, and yet some of us do not behave as such. It seems that the true purpose of these places, to be common ground for people, has been shattered and distorted.
This was a place, that for a short while, I considered home, somewhere I could be accepted. But as that is no longer the case, why stay?
If I am banned from either the chat or the forum, so be it. If that is the cost for having an opinion, then I will gladly pay.

[littleme]

I'm agreeing with Psynymph and baby girl, I'm not going back into the chat anymore.

[cariad]

I'd hate for you guys and others to be banned.

We are very very reluctant to ban anyone. If you ignore bans due to legal reasons or spamming, a quick count showed only 5 people have been banned in the last 12 months for behaviour within forums. But we do not allow flaming. I hope the following quote helps.

This forum is not here for flaming. This means that insults against a poster or his views won't be tolerated at all. You can debate a view all you want, but a direct insult may result in a forum banning. An example of the difference follows:

Example: "Catholics suck!" Is not appropriate at any time. "I think what the Catholics believe about ______ is wrong because of _____" Is appropriate.

Civil discussion is expected. Remember that these are people you are dealing with and not just words on a screen. If the best you have to offer is swearing or slander than move on to a new topic.

There are a lot of grey areas. ID has referred to a post of his talking about the end of a relationship. Even though the person was not mentioned by the name, the context and positioning of the post made it obvious about whom he was speaking. I decided that post constituted flaming since although some of the things which he said were simple fact, I considered that some could be seen as opinion or interpretation; additionally the person is no longer a member here, so was not in a position to defend her character.

I make no apology for including 'I decided' and 'I considered' in the last sentence. I did so, and have made a decision about this thread, because that is it is the role which ultimately the owner of the site has asked me carry out. Because of the grey areas within such things decisions exist, I have invited ID to ask Rabbit1 to review my decision. Although flaming can result in an instant ban given the unique circumstances of the situation I did not consider it to be appropriate.

Occasionally when a member wishes to post something which they fear might be considered a flame, they run it past myself or one of the other admins for an opinion before they stick their neck out on it. Although we don't ask or expect this, we are very willing to help in this way.

NK, does that help clarify the situation, or just stir up the cloudy waters?

cariad

[cariad]

There has been an another implied attack on me is this thread. That is fine, I am accustomed to such things, and whilst I get some complaints saying that I am too strict and some saying that I am too lenient in my interpretation of the rules I will have to assume that I am getting it about right. If I were to get no complaints it would mean that I was not doing anything - hold on, then I would get complaints about that too.

I do welcome people telling me in a constructive way when they think I have made a mistake, it gives me the opportunity to reconsider something and correct it if needs be. This is why when posts are 'deleted' they are only removed to a recycle bin from which they can be rescued if needs be.

The same applies to the chat room. Probably the only way to run such a facility without getting any complaints is not to run it at all. And then we would get complaints about no chat room. AC38 owns and runs the chat room, and does so as he sees fit, with the help of his team of mods.

I am sorry that this thread has been started, I closed Red's original one since I was concerned that things would be said which would be counterproductive to relationships. I knew there would be complaints about that, and there were.

I hope that by not closing this thread now, I am not making a big mistake, and appeal to anyone who is going to post to it, to not let it drift into the tangled web of "he said, she said" which AzraelCoburn mentioned but to a demonstrate maturity and consideration for everyone concerned. Please remember that behind each of the ID's you see here, even if it someone who has a staff position here or in the chat room, there is a real person with very real feelings who, particularly due to the media we use, can potentially be hurt in ways we cannot see.

Many people enjoy using the room, whilst some have decided that it is not to their tastes. If there really is a need or desire to have this discussion then please keep it constructive.

cariad

[Mr W]

As a former community leader on a well known ISP I'll just stick my 2p/cents worth in on the subject. Moderators are stuck between a rock and a hard place when it comes down to managing message boards and chatrooms. They should run an unbiased area following the guidelines of the owner but alas personal interpritation does come into play. Moderators should try not to allow their personal opinions to dictate their role within a community. Remember your role not your screen name
I feel for admin on this - You can please some of the people some of the time but never all of the people all of the time. If there is evidence of any wrong doing then my suggestion is report it to admin and let them deal with it.

[cariad]

Either I'm off-balance and not seeing the forest for the trees... or there actually isn't any conspiracy going on.

hmmm. I'll vote for "no conspiracy." I know I've been a bit absent getting ready to bicycle across the USA, but I haven't noted a particular problem here, nor in chat.

So will someone clue me in with some specific info. I hate being left out of the conspiracies...

Tongue firmly rooted in my cheek,
I remain....

If you were on your other type of bike, I might just be asking if I could come and ride pillion.

cariad

p.s. Just looked back at the original post, and there is no mention of conspiracy - guess that means there really must be one, for there to be no mention of it. I think.

[Ocean_Soul]

I don't really care enough to go into details but count me in as one who's rarely going to the chat or not at all.

People I consider friends have, in my opinion, been kicked off unjustly IMHO and instead of dealing with whatever problem might be there the easy road is taken.

I think the mods should remember we're all human, who don't read the rules every time we enter and repeat them to ourselves whenever we hit the send button. And we do have feelings and express them, regardless of what they might be.

And besides, I've been happy in MDS. Wait, is that wrong? Talking about another woman in the presence of the one I should be spending time with?

[Sinful]

I have to agree, I will not be returning to the chat as well.

[_ID_]

Cariad, since you decided to claim you knew my post was about the originator of that thread, I will give you a piece of fact that you might want to know. I had her put in jail, yes jail, as in prison/lock-up/incarceration. My post you deleted was a statement of fact, therefore not a flame, and most definitely not debatable. If you want more information than that, PM me.

[cariad]

As I have said before, I make mistakes. If I made one, then I apologise. I, as anyone else here, can only act according to the best of our abilities and the best of our knowledge. I do apologise when I make mistakes, I have been criticised for it by people who say I should not. I do not apologise for being neither omnipresent nor omniscient.

If a post appears to be a flame it will always be treated be as such, and it is removed. It is not left lingering where it could cause harm, and as you know the author of the post is contacted to explain what has happened. If we are later convinced that it is not a flame, then our actions change accordingly, returning the post to its original place, sometimes in a slightly edited form.

The only alternative to this way of acting is to not have the board moderated. That is possible, but it is not how either Tiger nor, in loco Tiger, Rabbit1 wish for it to be run. I suspect it is also not how the majority of the members would like it run. I was fairly recently looking at a post by a once loyal member who left here because the moderation was too slack, accusing us of not caring about people's feelings.

Within the spirit of what I have just stated, I was, and continue to be, very willing to discuss the post which I removed.

cariad


p.s. I am just about to replace the aforementioned post. The power of communication!!! I removed it believing it to be outside of the forum guidelines, it would appear that I was wrong.

[Guest 91108]

Hrmm .... This topic of chat and forums is difficult at very least.

So many thoughts and opinions, Ideas and comments I could throw out for all to read, but a friend has helped me learn something to consider as i type this so...

To not go to chat from a state of fear or dislike is to allow oneself to be intimidated.

To fear your comments being used against you from one place to another is truly devious.

To have to watch those you assume to be friends because there are sides to be taken is troublesome at the least.

To lack consistency in having written rules, and rules that you find out as you cross them and become banned is rare on the net but happens.

We all have to abide and enforce unwritten rules on ourselves and others.
I do as well. It is not a thing against anyone. The difference is on the level and importance of the unwritten rules and how they are applied.
Unless the unwritten rules become such a thing as to have importance enough to get one banned, if it does, then it should be written.

[Psynymph]

cariad let me first say that i truly hope i wasnt the one you feel insulted you. that was never ever even close to my intention. i made a point to apologize to you because i knew that posting this thread was going to make your life a little more diffcult, but again i say..... it all needed to be said.

i also don't really have a problem with the forums. not really. nothing as substantial as the chat room. but i posted this here in the forums because i can't exactly express my opinion in the chat room, about the chat room, without being banned.

i wanted to mainly point out to the website owners that even though they may not own and run the chat room, the chat room is none the less an extension of this website. and the chat room is making the website look bad.

this thread is a way for people to express their complaints in a mature and civil way and KNOW that they are being heard since it is a public forum.

i think the owner's of this website should seriously consider the reason behind this thread and courses of action that can be taken. because as i said, i realize that the chat room is seperately owned but right now it is an extension of sorts of this website. an extension that sits in ill will and "conspiriacy".

lol and no there isn't any real conspiriacy. as i said.... i know it seemed for the most part i basically evaded saying what i meant outright but that was because i couldn't say anything without naming names. obviously though, people realize what i am talking about.

i'm glad to see that this thread hasn't gone sour and hopefully it wont. because it's not my intention.

cariad, again i am sincerely sorry that i had to purposefully make your beautiful life more difficult. as i have always said, you are a goddess to me on this forum and i respect you.

[~hellish one~]

To not go to chat from a state of fear or dislike is to allow oneself to be intimidated.

i don't think most of us have stopped going into chat out of fear or intimidation. i think it is more of a state of disgust really. kinda like when union workers go on strike to prove a point. only here, we don't have a union and there are no 'demands' to be met. i know i am just one person, and i don't know about everyone else, but by not going into chat, i want the chat staff to know I won't put up with that shit. whether they care or not...~shrugs~ at least i made my point. ya know?

[cariad]

Psynymph, I know your motives were right, even though I personally wish you had not opened this thread. And fear not - I am not offended.

I am however very concerned that this thread could lead to emotive posts which could lead to flaming which almost certainly will lead to people being banned from the site. And that is something I really do not wish to happen.

We are all adults, and we should all be able to discuss this issues in a calm and constructive way, but history has shown that is not often the case.

My sincere wish is that nobody leaves the site as a result of this thread, either because they are banned or because they are hurt. Only the people who post to it can make that wish come true.

cariad

[Guest 91108]

Psynymph, I think your initial post was needed to be done. IMO.
Posting is the only recourse members have to air problems. That was pointed out about the lack or Reading material so too it applies to the way other things are done or not. IMO.

~~~~

Originally Posted by Wolfscout
To not go to chat from a state of fear or dislike is to allow oneself to be intimidated.

i don't think most of us have stopped going into chat out of fear or intimidation. i think it is more of a state of disgust really. kinda like when union workers go on strike to prove a point. only here, we don't have a union and there are no 'demands' to be met. i know i am just one person, and i don't know about everyone else, but by not going into chat, i want the chat staff to know I won't put up with that shit. whether they care or not...~shrugs~ at least i made my point. ya know?

I have not replied to you for some time for many reasons.
I can understand the disgust comment. Really.
hrm enough not going in to chat will leave a chat of like minded wrongness.
I guess that is acceptable to many here.
Not sure why I give a rat's ass except that I care.
I cared enough to be a Mod until i was made not to care anymore.

~~~~

cariad, ... there will always be individuals who will screw up threads often on purpose to get it closed. I would like to suggest that be kept in mind while others are discussing things that matter to them as best they can in thier own way.

And some of you who would post in that manner should know ahead that the forum's rules would have your post deleted or removed at the very least. It's not censorship if you break forum rules or post negative BS to include drama instigative BS..

[tessa]

As long as this thread remains to be an outlet for discussion and not for bashing, I also believe it's a really good thing. Until what happened with Red happened, I thought that the chatroom and the Forums were completely and totally separate, based on the information I had. But after Red had her issue in chat, I learned that as a rule, if one is banned from chat, then one can be banned from the Forums. Ok, that right there implies to me that chat and Forums are not as separate as I first believed. And if one can get banned from Library chat because an opinion expressed on an entirely different site simply pisses off the powers that be, well, members here in the Forums ought to at least be aware of what can happen.

I have never seen censorship or flaming encouraged nor allowed here in the Forums- something I greatly appreciate and am thankful for. I have witnessed it for myself in the chatroom, which is why I rarely ever went in. I won't go in at all now after the injustice done to Red.

Thank you Psynymph for pointing out what needed to be pointed out. Thank you, cariad, for allowing this discussion to take place.

tessa

[annie]

i have thought of many things i might say in response to these posts...

the one thing i keep coming back to is... no matter WHAT i say or HOW i say it it will be seen as "taking sides" and i will lose friendships out of it...

And honestly... THAT is what pisses me off and makes me the saddest... a catch 22 situation, no matter what is said....

Do i fully agree with what some on both sides have done? no.
Do i understand some of their emotions, etc. that added to the outcome and their responses? i am trying too.
Does that excuse any of the behavior? No

But, just as that does not excuse any of the behavior the emotions, etc. are what make us human...and flawed. Life would be boring otherwise. And that same human nature is what allows us the options to forgive and come together or to hold onto anger and perhaps lash out... We all make errors in judgment. The real test is how we respond when called on the carpet about those errors or how we respond when we have been given an apology.

So... where does that leave me (and others in the same spot)? Feeling as though no matter what i will ultimately end up having to "choose" a side or will be "not as trusted" because i am still friends with so and so, etc. No one should have to go through that in a place that they love and feel secure... nothing is left if they do.

So, when that happens (and human nature i'm sure it is just a matter of time) i will leave... being once again wiser for the knowledge, friendship and love shared and mourning for lose of the same...

[tessa]

So... where does that leave me (and others in the same spot)? Feeling as though no matter what i will ultimately end up having to "choose" a side or will be "not as trusted" because i am still friends with so and so, etc. No one should have to go through that in a place that they love and feel secure... nothing is left if they do.

So, when that happens (and human nature i'm sure it is just a matter of time) i will leave... being once again wiser for the knowledge, friendship and love shared and mourning for lose of the same...

I hope that doesn't happen, annie. You would be dearly missed.

The only "lesson" that's been taught by all this is that cruel vindictiveness hurts more than just the target at which it was initially aimed.