poll for deleting snuff stories

[VLMarquette]

Just one more thing, and I will stop. As for the want of a gentler read, I happen to agree with that. I am as turned off as you are I am sure when all I see is cardboard characters, going through the same motions, over and over. That was one of the reasons I got into writing erotica to begin with. This was almost 9 years ago, long before this site. When all the erotica out there was take tab A insert it into slot B, or C, depending on the tastes of the reader, often. There was no plots, no story lines worth mentioning and all the characters were strictly one demential. This site is a godsend, it allows those of us who are/were, tired of mainstream adult paper backs a chance to open a whole new reality.


Ronnie

[Spitman]

As a writer whose stories are coded in the snuff category, I want to say that I understand and sympathise with people who dislike reading extremely violent stories in which women are brutally attacked and killed. I feel the same way.

So why are my stories coded as snuff? My subject matter deals with stronger female fantasies, usually consensual or at least semi-consensual, where the outcome is often the death of a female character in the story. I don't feel that my writing is on the same planet as the more objectionable variety, but all the same, I want to give readers some warning, and snuff is the only code this site has available for that purpose.

I do object to the suggestion that 'snuff' material is necessarily badly written. Good writing exists in every category on this site, including 'snuff'. There is also a lot of stuff in that category that will not be to everyone's taste.

I also have codes that I avoid, such as 'scat' which instantly turns me off.

The reason for having a personal dislike for a particular story is not always a question of degree, but one of attitude or philosophy. I don't get on with stuff about abusing women, especially where a woman is abused for the selfish gratification of the abuser. The abuse does not have to involve mutilation or death for me to find it objectionable. I don't complain about it. I just avoid it, and I also avoid threads in the Forum that deal with things I don't like.

What I am interested in happens to be stuff that women like, and it is a fact that many women enjoy violent fantasies. Many prefer them non-consensual but consensual, submissive fantasies that emphasise the female perspective are far more interesting to me, psychologically.

Removing that kind of fantasy material entirely would remove stuff that is enjoyed by many people of both sexes. It is important to understand that these stories are fiction. They come from the imagination of the author, but cannot be assumed to represent the behaviour of the author in everyday life.

People enjoy these stories for the same kind of reasons that they like to watch horror movies, or go on scary rides in theme parks.

[LaJan]

Spitman, it's clear from your response that at least one of the snuff story writers writes well. I appreciate that you replied to this topic with such eloquence. (Did I spell that correctly? LOL!)

As another onf of those writers who write non-consensual stories, I agree with much of what you said. I have received numerous requests for private stories and some for public posts of that variety as well. However, I simply can't add anything like snuff into a story I write and I've never been asked to.

Obviously, the rape stories I have written and posted here involve brutality and violence. I'd be a fool not to admit as much. But I have yet to get a request for a person to be "killed". Are you saying that there are women you know that actually want to read about the death of a woman in a story? If so, you are getting requests or responses I certainly haven't seen. Regarding your writing not being "on the same planet as the more objectionable variety", I really wouldn't know since I can't compare stories I haven't read! But I'd love to hear your take on what makes a story one of "the more objectionable variety". Are there stories in here that deal with more violence than death??? LOL!

I find this comment: "The reason for having a personal dislike for a particular story is not always a question of degree, but one of attitude or philosophy" to be particularly apt since few people will disagree with it. It's just that the degree you write about is death. So, it would seem as though you truly see the opinions of the anti-snuff movement but fail to see that your argument is precisely the reason snuff stories are such dreaded stories for many people: there just isn't a commonly held philsophy that murder is a great turn-on, regardless of how well it's written.

Spitman, I, for one, appreciate hearing your opinion as I haven't heard too many of them from your point-of-view. In fact, yours is the ONLY one that actually makes the point without just hammering in a 'gut feeling' of preferences. Unfortunately, your opinion of the merits of snuff stories seems to be the only one available as well. Does that seem to indicate a serious amount of interest in reading or writing them?

I will never - EVER - begrudge your right to write whatever you choose to write and I appreciate the fact that you are careful to code your stories correctly. I simply see that you and I must agree to disagree on the worth of this form of freedom of expression. And long live our right to say and write whatever we choose.

As a writer whose stories are coded in the snuff category, I want to say that I understand and sympathise with people who dislike reading extremely violent stories in which women are brutally attacked and killed. I feel the same way.

So why are my stories coded as snuff? My subject matter deals with stronger female fantasies, usually consensual or at least semi-consensual, where the outcome is often the death of a female character in the story. I don't feel that my writing is on the same planet as the more objectionable variety, but all the same, I want to give readers some warning, and snuff is the only code this site has available for that purpose.

I do object to the suggestion that 'snuff' material is necessarily badly written. Good writing exists in every category on this site, including 'snuff'. There is also a lot of stuff in that category that will not be to everyone's taste.

I also have codes that I avoid, such as 'scat' which instantly turns me off.

The reason for having a personal dislike for a particular story is not always a question of degree, but one of attitude or philosophy. I don't get on with stuff about abusing women, especially where a woman is abused for the selfish gratification of the abuser. The abuse does not have to involve mutilation or death for me to find it objectionable. I don't complain about it. I just avoid it, and I also avoid threads in the Forum that deal with things I don't like.

What I am interested in happens to be stuff that women like, and it is a fact that many women enjoy violent fantasies. Many prefer them non-consensual but consensual, submissive fantasies that emphasise the female perspective are far more interesting to me, psychologically.

Removing that kind of fantasy material entirely would remove stuff that is enjoyed by many people of both sexes. It is important to understand that these stories are fiction. They come from the imagination of the author, but cannot be assumed to represent the behaviour of the author in everyday life.

People enjoy these stories for the same kind of reasons that they like to watch horror movies, or go on scary rides in theme parks.

[Curtis]

Something Spitman didn't mention in his post was that his snuff is consentual, involving people (usually women) who get turned on by being eaten. There are at least two other authors who post similar stories in the Library. Before I was directed to the Library, I found an entire site made up of nothing but cannibalism stories (mostly consentual). Hundreds of them. Unfortunately, I've lost the URL for it (and for a superhero S&M site).

[peachers]

i feel people should be aloud to post snuff stories
even thou i don t like most of them.
i have read a few stories with a small snuff content
and if in keeping with a storie line i feel it should be aloud.
we would lose a lot of good writers.

[Robin Lane]

I would like to add my two cents to the subject of posting snuff stories on this BDSM Library site.

I have always been of the opinion that ANYONE who does not wish to view published material they regard as offensive always has the option to GO SOMEPLACE ELSE. Snuff does, within the realm of fiction, have a place. By it's most basic definition, it is simply homicide, which has had a place in fiction since the first humans ventured into caves to paint pictures on the walls thereof. As long as there have been stories to tell, some of those stories will involve homicide. If we regard snuff (which, for our purposes here, I will define as homicide in a sexual/erotic environment or situation) as being an improper depiction of human sexuality, then we might also regard depictions of assassinations as improper in political thrillers, or commercial murder in stories about Wall Street intrigue, and as long as there have been "Wild West" there have been masked banditos who rob banks and kill the bank teller. Homicide in the context of erotica is no more associated with real world sexuality than homicide in any other fictional context would be associated with a real life equivalent of that context.

I don't read a whole lot of snuff myself, and have only recently begun to write tales involving it, and then only because I have recently discovered the works of the artist Dolcett, and have developed an interest in the idea of consensual snuff. Most of what I have read concerning snuff, particularly on BDSM Library, is worthless, but I have also read some that is quite compelling and highly erotic. Does this mean that I have an urge to actually put someone in danger of loosing their life during my real life sexual encounters? Not in the slightest! Any sick person who really would want that does not need snuff fiction to put those fantasies into their head, and would likely engage in such behavior whether snuff erotica existed or not. I always make it clear when my stories involve snuff so that a reasonable person can make that choice.. Reasonable people in control of the own mental and physical faculties should be allowed to read any kind of published material they wish. While children should be protected from any exposure to erotica regardless of its context, there is no reason to restrain adult access to erotica or any other form of published material, fictional or otherwise.

Robin

[Spitman]

The origin of the term "snuff" has been described in this thread. It derived from films in which protagonists were actually murdered, which were then sold underground for the purpose of sexual gratification. Nothing on this site corresponds to this definition.

The use of the term "snuff" to describe fictional work in which a character is deliberately killed is not justified either. On that basis the entire works of authors such as Agatha Christie and Arthur Conan Doyle are snuff, and films such as Aliens and Lord of the Rings are snuff films. This is nonsense.

Sexually oriented, purely fictional fantasies in which the violent death of a protagonist occurs are widely represented on this site. Ordinary people who have no interest whatever in bdsm commonly enjoy fantasies of this kind. If somebody enjoys a fantasy, which is very much like a dream, it does not imply that they would actually want to act it out in real life. Our fantasies and dreams often depict things that we fear, or that horrify us, or excite us, but in no way represent our behaviour or intentions towards living people.

Personally I do not enjoy depictions of violent conduct, written for the purpose of sexual gratification, that appear to describe extreme real life sexual or physical abuse resulting in injury or death. It can be difficult to distinguish fantasy from a description of real life abuse. It is very difficult to come up with a technical distinction that works.

Some of the most exciting fantasies that ordinary people enjoy involve sexually violent death. The artist Dolcett remains an inspiration to many artists and writers of adult fantasy fiction. His artistic depictions of sexually oriented torture, execution and death are hard to confuse with any possible or even probable real life scenario, but highly effective in a fantasy context.

Story Codes are used on this site to help people find the stuff they like, and avoid the stuff they don't. It would defeat the object entirely if material in a Story Code category that some people didn't like was excluded entirely.

As a Story Code, the term "snuff" is used on this site in a much wider sense, where a fictional story involves the violent death of a protagonist, whether consensual or not. I do not see how anybody can reasonably argue that fiction should not deal with murder, even sexually motivated murder. Even if a story depicted an actual real life murder, it could be described as journalism. Many of my own stories involve what is technically suicide rather than murder.

I support the continued use of the "snuff" category, even though many people seem to confuse its use to depict fantasy fiction with the historical interpretation of the term.

[Ruby]

I support the continued use of the "snuff" category, even though many people seem to confuse its use to depict fantasy fiction with the historical interpretation of the term.

Agreed...now, let's see if we can convince more authors
who write snuff stories to add the code when submitting.

I could rant for ours about how I read a great story only to
have one of the key characters die. I would have liked a warning!

Or for purists, who argue that snuff is only death in a sexual context,
then perhaps we should request another code to be added.
Something like CD for character death.

That should help warn readers who may want to avoid these tales
or prepare themselves.

[Curtis]

Now that's not a bad idea. I'm always up for adding story codes. In fact, there's a thread in here somewhere about suggested additional codes....

[j]

To me it seems clear enough that a story marked with a 'snuff' code is one where death occurs not as a mere plot device, but as a specifically erotic treat for the reader (all stories on this site, after all, are supposed to elicit erotic thrills of some kind or the other). I do not see any confusion with snuff movies (no real death was needed, unless the writer wrote a diary) and the word carries sufficient warning. Where there WOULD be a need for a specific code is in the case where corpses are the target of erotic attention ("necro") as quite a lot of people would feel distinctly ill at ease upon encountering such activities unannounced...

[Robin Lane]

Agreed...now, let's see if we can convince more authors
who write snuff stories to add the code when submitting.

I could rant for ours about how I read a great story only to
have one of the key characters die. I would have liked a warning!

Or for purists, who argue that snuff is only death in a sexual context,
then perhaps we should request another code to be added.
Something like CD for character death.

That should help warn readers who may want to avoid these tales
or prepare themselves.

It is quite reasonable to assume that stories posted on BDSM Library, or any site or publication that contains erotica, snuff should be defined as a classification into which a story must fall IF such a story uses any expression or depiction of death in an erotic context. Readers have the right to be informed of a story's content. This would be true whether in erotica or some other genre`, in any type of media... print, television, periodicles, etc. If a story contains any such potentially upsetting content, (snuff, incest, violence, etc.,) it is the duty of the author AND the author's publisher to ensure that anyone interested in reading the story understands that it contains such content. This is true in any kind of entertainment media, not just fiction, and any genre`, not just erotica.

Robin

"Girls... God's gift to women."

[TeasedWhispers]

Honestly its all a point of view if you don't like snuff then its better off that you don't read it,I may not care for it...but it doesn't matter to me either way.

Just one more thing, and I will stop. As for the want of a gentler read, I happen to agree with that. I am as turned off as you are I am sure when all I see is cardboard characters, going through the same motions, over and over. That was one of the reasons I got into writing erotica to begin with. This was almost 9 years ago, long before this site. When*all the erotica out there was take tab A insert it into slot B, or C, depending on the tastes of the reader, often. There was no plots, no story lines worth mentioning and all the characters were strictly one demential. This site is a godsend, it allows those of us who are/were, tired of mainstream adult paper backs a chance to open a whole new reality.


Ronnie

[Chuckdom19]

TV programs have ratings so you don't need to watch ones you don't wish to see. You have a channel switch, and can vote your unhappiness or approval with it.

Same here. If you don't like it, don't read it.

"I may disagree with what you say, but will fight to the death for your right to say it."

Censorship causes blindness.

Chksng