Women Shall Submit

[Rhabbi]

There are a few groups that I belong to that encourage BDSM and Christianity. I would be gald to share links with anyone that wants them, and if there is enough interest I will even post them. Submiossion is a beautiful thing, and I also believe it to be Scriptual.

[isabeau6]

There are a few groups that I belong to that encourage BDSM and Christianity. I would be gald to share links with anyone that wants them, and if there is enough interest I will even post them. Submiossion is a beautiful thing, and I also believe it to be Scriptual.

i would be very interested in those links thank you Rhabbi..

submit to one's husband always i felt meant that you submitted to him sexually, no matter how much it might hurt..i grew up with a Pastor who followed the teachings of Paul..never married, considering chastity next to Godliness and purity...i believe Paul hadn't a clue as to what he was talking about since he never was married..

i would gladly submit to the right man..i have never submitted to my husband, he wouldn't wish it and neither would i to be honest..ours just was never that type of relationship...

i used to take the Bible as literal truth...i have changed a bit..i used to think masturbation was a sin..but where in the Bible does it mention that? these things were pointed out to me by someone..i always thought it was mentioned in the Bible..i have faith..i no longer believe in organized religion..my faith has kept me sane..

isabeau6

[Jim]

seems like you have nailed it with your comments congrats ...

[isabeau6]

seems like you have nailed it with your comments congrats ...

me??????? wow..i actually made some sense...wow...thanks

isabeau

[Rhabbi]

There are actually alomost as many Christian BDSM sites as regular ones, here are a few.

www.sexinchrist.com/submission.html
www.insolitology.com/rloddities/christianity.htm
www.christiansandbdsm.com

The last one is the best resource.

[TomOfSweden]

Just out of curiosity, how does men who submit to women work that into the bible?

[tessa]

Just out of curiosity, how does men who submit to women work that into the bible?

Oh, Tom. I can always count on you for a smile. Thank you!

And because I'm in that smiling mood...~lil' hug~

tessa

[Rhabbi]

Just out of curiosity, how does men who submit to women work that into the bible?

Ahh, funny you should ask that Tom. If you take the word head to mean source, as in the head of a river, there is actually no conflict in Women being dominant.

[nia25]

I hope no one minds if I post... I noticed no one has for a couple of months but I just read the thread and was very interested. I can see where they are connected. It makes sense to me, and explains why more than likely we want to try it. I am a Christian. By calling myself a Christian I am in no way claiming to be perfect. Nor have I ever seen in the Bible that God wants us to be perfect. He wants us to follow Him, but He also knows we are human. I was thinking about this situation the other night, and actually prayed about it. My husband and I want to experiment in the BDSM lifestyle, but I will not compromise my beliefs. I thought about this for quite sometime. No where (at least that I have seen, if I am wrong then I am sorry) in The Bible that I have seen does it say that a husband and wife should not enjoy sex or an orgasm. As many of you have said, as long as it is only between husband and wife there is no reason this is against God, or the Bible. And if I were to walk away from my religion right now, I would still go to heaven because I am saved. I know there are many people who do not share these views, but this is how I feel.

[Rhabbi]

I received this study on obedience through my Christian group, and, sense this thread was recently bumped, thought I would post it here. It is primarily aimed at obedience of children to parents, but the application can be extended to any relationship that requires obedience.

Character Journal No.2

Obedience vs. Willfulness

Bible Verses Related to Obedience

Spend an evening (or several) looking at just one of these verses at a time. Don't forget to ask your children the questions: Who? What? Where? Why? When? and How? Discuss with your family what each verse or story teaches about the character quality.

* 1 Samuel 15:22 And Samuel said, Hath the LORD [as great] delight in burnt offerings and sacrifices, as in obeying the voice of the LORD? Behold, to obey [is] better than sacrifice, [and] to hearken than the fat of rams.
* Proverbs 30:17 The eye [that] mocketh at [his] father, and despiseth to obey [his] mother, the ravens of the valley shall pick it out, and the young eagles shall eat it. {the valley: or, the brook}
* Acts 5:29 Then Peter and the [other] apostles answered and said, We ought to obey God rather than men.
* Romans 6:16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?
* 2 Corinthians 10:5 Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ; {imaginations: or, reasonings}
* Ephesians 6:1 Children, obey your parents in the Lord: for this is right.
* Colossians 3:20 Children, obey [your] parents in all things: for this is well pleasing unto the Lord.
* Colossians 3:22 Servants, obey in all things [your] masters according to the flesh; not with eyeservice, as menpleasers; but in singleness of heart, fearing God:
* Titus 3:1 Put them in mind to be subject to principalities and powers, to obey magistrates, to be ready to every good work,
* Hebrews 5:8 Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered;
* Hebrews 13:17 Obey them that have the rule over you, and submit yourselves: for they watch for your souls, as they that must give account, that they may do it with joy, and not with grief: for that [is] unprofitable for you. {have...: or, guide}

Bible Stories

* The story of David who's obedience to his father (1 Samuel 17) led to his victory over Goliath. Had David not obeyed the instructions of his father, he would have missed this significant opportunity to defeat the enemies of God.
* The story of Naaman in 2 Kings chapter 5

Character Definitions

* Submission to the restraint or commands of authority. (Dictionary Definition)
* Freedom to be creative under the protection of divinely-appointed authority. (Operational Definition)
* Learning the importance of limitations and the meaning of the word "no." Responding to the wishes of God, parents, and others in authority. Yielding the right to have the final decision. (Operational Definition)

Projects

* Can you report to your children that you fully obeyed your parents or that you have asked them to forgive you for not obeying?
* Does your family see you making sacrifices to obey God?
* Do you quickly obey the promptings of the Holy Spirit?
* Have your children seen you violate traffic laws?

Ten Ways To Test Your Obedience

FIRST TEST: Do you ask for reasons when your request is turned down?
OBEDIENCE IS ACCEPTING "NO" AS A FINAL ANSWER. (No questions, no appeals, no discussions, no nothing!!!)
When you make a request, and are told "no,' it would be an act of disobedience to discuss the matter any further. Simply thank your authority for considering the request, and drop the subject. Trust God to work out any change of heart. If you ask for reasons, you are assuming that your authority can clearly and fully explain himself. Often he will have cautions that he cannot immediately explain based on past experiences, conflicting circumstances, the concerns of others, or direction from the Lord. Any reasons he gives you are usually incomplete; thus, when you answer his objections, he still will not be convinced, and an argument will usually result.

SECOND TEST: Do you stop what you are doing when given instructions?
OBEDIENCE IS ACTING ON COMMANDS IMMEDIATELY. (No delays, no objections, no reasons like, "Let me finish this first.")
Delayed obedience is disobedience. When your authority asks you to do something, stop what you are doing immediately, and carry out what you were told to do. If you are working on a project that will be damaged if not finished, make your authority aware of this, and let him decide which is the greater priority.

THIRD TEST: Do you smile when you are told to do something?
OBEDIENCE IS CHEERFULLY RESPONDING TO REQUESTS. (No frowns, no murmurs, no groans, no rolling of your eyes.)
A smile communicates that you are pleased to carry out the wishes of your authorities. The lack of a smile implies that you do not want to do a job. A frown or any murmuring indicates that you are inwardly rebelling against your authorities, and that you are complying only because you have no alternative.

FOURTH TEST: Do you ever give reasons why you cannot do a job?
OBEDIENCE IS FINDING WAYS TO OVERCOME OBSTACLES. (No negative thinking, no failure to be creative, no "I can't." )
When told to do a job, it is normal to think of obstacles that are in your way, but do not voice them. Ask yourself, "How can I overcome these obstacles?" Ask God for wisdom. A desire to obey motivates creativity. Where there is a will, there is a way.

FIFTH TEST: Have you ever had to be reminded to do little tasks?
OBEDIENCE IS DOING LITTLE COMMANDS AS WELL AS BIG ONES. (No excuses, no frustrations, no reactions, no justifications.)
Do you need to be reminded to wipe your feet, pick up your clothes, make your bed, brush your teeth, wash the dishes, or carry out garbage? A person who neglects little commands will usually overlook important details which make the difference between success and failure in a project or in life. He will also tend to be careless in his thinking, personal disciplines, neatness, speech, or actions. The principle that Jesus gave is very true: "He that is faithful in that which is least is faithful also in much." (Luke 16:10) On the other hand, he that is unfaithful in little, will be unfaithful in much.

SIXTH TEST: Do you ever have to re-do a job you did the wrong way?
OBEDIENCE IS FOLLOWING ALL THE ORDERS THE FIRST TIME. (No assuming, no guessing, no forgetting, no self-will.)
Before carrying out a task, an obedient person will make sure that he has all the information on how to do it. He will know what questions to ask in order to clarify instructions, and he will know at what points. to check back with his authority to make sure he is doing the job the right way. Disobedience is adding your own will or ideas to a job when you are not sure they are in harmony with the precise instructions of your authority.

SEVENTH TEST: Do you ever think that a job is "stupid?"
OBEDIENCE IS DOING JOBS AND UNDERSTANDING THEM LATER. (No mocking, no whining, no questioning, no evaluating.)
A former Marine recalled the days when he went through boot camp. He was ordered to dig a hole six-feet-square. After completing the task, he was told to fill it back up, and then start another one. Later he learned that the purpose of those jobs was to teach him to obey even without explanation. His life would depend on it. In battle, he would not always be given the reasons behind a command, but if he failed to obey, his life would be jeopardised, as well as the lives of those around him.

EIGHTH TEST: Do you ever ask one parent after the other said, "No?"
OBEDIENCE IS NOT PUTTING ONE AUTHORITY AGAINST ANOTHER. (No scheming, no withholding important facts, no repeat requests.)
When one parent tells you, "No," and you ask the other parent the same question, you may get your way, but it is sure to damage the relationship between your parents and demonstrate the fact that you are disobedient. God instructs us that in a multitude of counsellors there is safety. (See Proverbs 11:14) By rejecting the counsel of one authority, you expose yourself to the destruction that comes with rebellion.

NINTH TEST: Do you ever plan in recreation after finishing chores?
OBEDIENCE IS PUTTING ALL YOUR ENERGIES INTO A TASK. (No half-hearted effort, no holding back energy, no day-dreaming.)
God instructs us to put our whole heart and soul into whatever we are doing. (See Colossians 3:23) This means that we will have little energy left after the job is finished. Instead of being distracted by thoughts of recreation, there would be the anticipation of rest. If the same energy that an athlete gives to his training would be expended in fulfilling a job, the one who assigned the job would be amazed with the spirit of obedience.

TENTH TEST: Do you obey whatever you are told to do?
OBEDIENCE IS BASED ON WHAT GOD SAYS IS TRUE AND RIGHT. (No blind obedience, no surrender of personal responsibilities.)
Even if an authority would tell you to do something that the Bible clearly prohibits, you are not to do it. Disobedience is violating any of God's laws; regardless of what others may tell you. If an authority should ask you to do something that you know is against God's Word, you must respectfully explain that you are ultimately under God's authority, and therefore you must obey God rather than man.

Bible Verses to Memorise as a Family

* 1 Samuel 15:22
* Ephesians 6:1
* 1 Peter 2:13-14

Other Helpful Material

Romans 13:1-2 Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God. Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation.

GOD HAS ORDAINED 4 BASIC STRUCTURES OF AUTHORITY

1. The Family
The family was the very first authority structure that God ever established, and it is foundational to all other structures of authority. Strong families will produce strong churches and nations. Weak families will produce weak churches and weak nations. Scripture makes it very clear that the husband is under the direct authority of God...The wife is under the authority of the husband...And the children are under the authority of their parents. This is the chain-of-command which God has established within the family. If this chain is broken or perverted in any way, if the husband resigns the spiritual leadership of the family to his wife, if the children are undisciplined and allowed to do whatever they want, then there will be serious consequences in the lives of that family.

2. The Government
Submission to the entire structure of government from the leader of our country, all the way down to the local police officers is commanded in Scripture. 1 Peter 2:13-14 Submit yourselves to every ordinance of man for the Lord's sake: whether it be to the king, as supreme; Or unto governors, as unto them that are sent by him for the punishment of evildoers, and for the praise of them that do well.

3. The Church
God has provided the leadership within a properly functioning local church to be responsible for the spiritual care and welfare of each member. Hebrews 13:17 Obey them that have the rule over you, and submit yourselves: for they watch for your souls, as they that must give account, that they may do it with joy, and not with grief: for that is unprofitable for you.

4. Our Employers
Paul, in Ephesians 6:5, writes, "Servants, be obedient to them that are your masters according to the flesh, with fear and trembling, in singleness of your heart, as unto Christ."

Is there ever a situation when we should disobey those in authority over us? Acts 4:19-20 infers that if we are confronted with a situation and are asked by our authorities to violate a Biblical command or principle, then we must obey God rather than man.

WHY WE SHOULD OBEY OUR GOD ORDAINED AUTHORITIES

1. For our protection
God has designed authority to function like an umbrella of protection. As long as we remain under God-given authority, nothing can happen to us that God does not design for our ultimate good and His ultimate glory. But the moment we challenge and disobey our authority, we move out from underneath that umbrella of protection and expose ourselves to the destructive forces of satan. That's why Scripture says that "rebellion is as the sin of witchcraft" (1 Samuel 15:23). A person who is involved in witchcraft has given himself over to Satan and his power. Exactly the same thing happens the moment you step outside that umbrella of protection - you expose yourself to the destructive forces of Satan. Satan's strategy is to get us outside that umbrella of protection because he knows he can't harm us as long as we remain under our God-given authority.

2. For direction
The most essential means of finding God's will (second only to the Word of God) is checking with our authorities, because God directs through your authority. Now that's radical teaching for our society! Parents are often the last on the list that our young people come to for advice, and that's tragic. This explains why so many Christian young people today are constantly making wrong decisions and are just drifting through life with no vital spiritual purpose for living. It's only as we submit to the authority of those God has placed over us - parents, government, employer, leadership in the local church - that we can benefit from God's protection and direction.

3. For character development
Every single one of us has a multitude of character deficiencies that need to be perfected. Authorities are the tools in God's hands that He uses to chip away at the rough edges of our character and to transform us into the image of Jesus Christ (Proverbs 22:15 Foolishness [is] bound in the heart of a child; [but] the rod of correction shall drive it far from him.). If we react and resist and get out from under the reproofs and authority of our parents, God only has to raise up new "tools" to continue the job. While Bill Gothard was working with inner-city gangs, many teen-agers would say in disgust, "I'm sick and tired of taking orders from my parents!" He would ask what they're planning to do about it, and they would reply, "I'm going to join the service!" They usually chose the marines!

OBEDIENCE-DISOBEDIENCE

(A) OBEDIENCE
(1) To God, the duty of
Whole-hearted Required # De 26:16 32:46
The Price of Success # Jos 1:8
Better than Sacrifice # 1Sa 15:22 Jer 7:23
Secures Entrance into God's Kingdom # Mt 7:21 Lu 8:21
The Imperative Duty of Life # Ac 5:29
(2) Examples of
Noah # Ge 6:22
Abraham # Ge 12:4 22:2,3
Bezaleel # Ex 36:1 Nu 9:23
Joshua # Jos 11:15
Hezekiah # 2Ki 18:6 Ezr 7:23 Ps 27:8
Joseph and Mary # Lu 2:39 Ac 16:10
Paul # Ac 26:19 Ro 16:19
Christ # Heb 5:8
(3) Blessings Promised for # Ex 19:5 De 4:30 5:29 7:12 28:1 1Ki 3:14 Job 36:11 Zec 3:7 # Jas 1:25 1Jo 3:22 Re 22:14
(4) Christ's Example of # Joh 14:31 15:10 Ro 5:19 Heb 5:8 10:9
(B) CHRIST'S WORDS CONCERNING OBEDIENCE
The Basal Rock of Character # Mt 7:24
Essential to Membership in God's Family # Mt 12:50
The Key to Spiritual Knowledge # Joh 7:17
Secures the Blessing of Divine Fellowship # Joh 14:23 1Jo 2:17
(C) OBEDIENCE TO CHRIST, examples of # Mt 4:20 7:24 9:9 21:6 26:19 Lu 5:5 6:47 # Joh 2:7 11:29 14:21 21:6
(D) DISOBEDIENCE
(1) Penalty for # De 11:28 28:15 1Sa 12:15 28:18 1Ki 13:21 Jer 12:17 # Eph 5:6 2Th 1:8 1Ti 1:9 Heb 2:2,3
(2) Examples of # Ge 3:11 19:26 Le 10:1 Nu 20:11 Jos 7:1 1Sa 13:13 # Jon 1:3 Zep 3:2

OBEDIENCE to God

1) Commanded # De 13:4

2) Without faith, is impossible # Heb 11:6

3) INCLUDES
3a) Obeying his voice # Ex 19:5 Jer 7:23
3b) Obeying his law # De 11:27 Isa 42:24
3c) Obeying Christ # Ex 23:21 2Co 10:5
3d) Obeying the gospel # Ro 1:5 6:17 10:16,17
3e) Keeping his commandments # Ec 12:13
3f) Submission to higher powers # Ro 13:1

4) Better than sacrifice # 1Sa 15:22

5) Justification obtained by that of Christ # Ro 5:19

6) Christ, an example of # Mt 3:15 Joh 15:20 Php 2:5-8 Heb 5:8

7) Angels engaged in # Ps 103:20

8) A characteristic of saints # 1Pe 1:14

9) Saints elected to # 1Pe 1:2

10) Obligations to # Ac 4:19,20 5:29

11) Exhortations to # Jer 26:13 38:20

12) SHOULD BE
12a) From the heart # De 11:13 Ro 6:17
12b) With willingness # Ps 18:44 Isa 1:19
12c) Unreserved # Jos 22:2,3
12d) Undeviating # De 28:14
12e) Constant # Php 2:12

13) Resolve upon # Ex 24:7 Jos 24:24

14) Confess your failure in # Da 9:10

15) Prepare the heart for # 1Sa 7:3 Ezr 7:10

16) Pray to be taught # Ps 119:35 143:10

17) Promises to # Ex 23:22 1Sa 12:14 Isa 1:19 Jer 7:23

18) To be universal in the latter days # Da 7:27

19) Blessedness of # De 11:27 28:1-13 Lu 11:28 Jas 1:25

20) The wicked refuse # Ex 5:2 Ne 9:17

21) Punishment of refusing # De 11:28 28:15-68 Jos 5:6 Isa 1:20

22) Exemplified
22a) Noah # Ge 6:22
22b) Abram # Ge 12:1-4 Heb 11:8 Ge 22:3,12
22c) Israelites # Ex 12:28 24:7
22d) Caleb &c # Nu 32:12
22e) Asa # 1Ki 15:11
22f) Elijah # 1Ki 17:5
22g) Hezekiah # 2Ki 18:6
22h) Josiah # 2Ki 22:2
22i) David # Ps 119:106
22j) Zerubbabel # Hag 1:12
22k) Joseph # Mt 1:24
22l) Wise men # Mt 2:12
22m) Zacharias &c # Lu 1:6
22n) Paul # Ac 26:19
22o) Saints of Rome # Ro 16:19

A Word to the Dads

How to Pray a Hedge of Protection around Your Family

Christian families are under increasing attack. Our children especially are prime targets for the enemy. For this reason, it is absolutely essential that the husband assumes his God-given role as spiritual leader in the home in order to provide spiritual protection for his wife and family. This principle is graphically illustrated in Mat 12:29 - [How else] can one enter into a strong man's house, and spoil his goods, except he first bind the strong man? and then he will spoil his house.

What the Lord is saying is this: if you want to take and plunder the possessions of a strong man, then the first thing you need to do is to bind him so that he is powerless to interfere. If he is bound, you are then at liberty to plunder all that is under his jurisdiction. Now I want to apply this to the Christian home. If Satan wants to destroy a Christian marriage or family, where does he begin? He first has to bind the strong man - the husband and father. Because the husband and father provides a spiritual umbrella of protection for his family. That umbrella protects his family from the destructive forces of Satan. But if there are areas of weakness in the life of that husband and father, this provides Satan with the opportunity to attack those that are under his authority. The word "goods" is a translation of the Greek word skeuos and is defined in Strong's Concordance as "a vessel [specially a wife as contributing to the usefulness of her husband]."

Do you realise that the majority of husbands and fathers in our churches today are in bondage to materialism, pornography, and other destructive habits? If a husband and father fails to fulfil his role of spiritual leader...If he is more interested in temporal things than eternal things...If he is not diligent in his walk with the Lord, then to the same extent that he is in bondage, Satan has the liberty to attack the members of his family.

One of the most effective ways to protect your family is for the husband to pray a daily hedge of protection. One wise father realised the need of Godly protection for his family. Because of this Godly father, the whole family was safe from Satan’s attacks against them. That father’s name was Job and in Job 1:1, Scripture reveals four basic qualifications which resulted in a special divine protection for his family. Satan called it a "hedge."

Job 1:1 There was a man in the land of Uz, whose name [was] Job; and that man was perfect and upright, and one that feared God, and eschewed evil.

Let’s look at each of these four qualifications which resulted in a special divine protection for Job and his family.

First, it says that Job was PERFECT

The word actually means moral purity. It means to be complete, undefiled, or morally clean. For example, whenever a husband lacks discipline in moral areas by looking at other women, he gives Satan opportunity to attack his family, and he greatly damages the spirit of his marriage. One wife I heard testify said that every time her husband looked at another woman, it was as though emotionally someone had plunged a dagger into her heart and twisted it around. It's that devastating. That's why Jesus said that even looking after a woman is the same as committing the act of adultery with her. Our wives feel the same emotions when they know we are looking after other women as we would if we discovered that they had been unfaithful.

For the sake of our own personal purity and for the sake of our marriage, it is essential that we as husbands make a covenant with our eyes. In Job 31:1, Job said, "I made a covenant with mine eyes; why then should I think upon a maid?" Job knew that sin begins in the heart. He knew that he was just as guilty of God's punishment for looking at a woman lustfully as for committing adultery with her. And so he purposed to guard himself by making a pact with his eyes not to gaze at a woman who might tempt him.

David was a man after God's own heart, but he dropped his guard and opened a leak in his umbrella of protection, and in a moment of compromise he was involved in immorality, and from that moment onward his life took a downward spiral. If you're familiar with the story you'll know that that one single act led to a host of further sins - including murder - and to a multitude of consequences that not only affected his own life but also the lives of his children and his children's children. Make no mistake about it, sin always has its consequences. David repented of his sin - he truly was sorry, and he received forgiveness, but the consequences of that one act haunted him for the rest of his life. Nathan the prophet confronted David and told him because of his sin of murder his own children would die by the sword; because of his sin of adultery his wives would be taken by other men; and because he caused God’s name to be blasphemed among the gentiles, the child Bathsheba conceived would die. Men, if we continue to flirt with our passions, we may end up, like David, paying a very high price.

Secondly, it says that Job was UPRIGHT

The Hebrew word means to be straight or just. It refers to a person’s integrity.

A man who was teaching a children’s Sunday school class asked his students, "Why do people say that I’m a Christian?" One little boy responded, "Because they don’t know you!"

Most Christian today have no testimony because little integrity. Many Christians compromise in business and think nothing about it. Many Christian today would copy a musical CD or tape or computer program that has been copyrighted and excuse it by saying, "Everyone else is doing it." We need to understand that right is always right even if no one else is doing it and wrong is always wrong even if everyone else is doing it. Many Christian ignore the speed limits on the highways as though it's something that doesn't matter. It does matter, if you're concerned about your integrity.

The goal for every Christian husband and father should be to develop - and to teach our children to develop and maintain - a clear conscience before God and man.

In 1 Tim 1:9, Paul compares a clear conscience for a Christian to a weapon for a soldier. What a weapon is to a soldier, a clear conscience is to the Christian. If a soldier looses his weapon he is ineffective, unprepared for battle, and will most likely be defeated in conflict. The Christian who doesn't have a clear conscience will be ineffective in his witness for Christ, unprepared for spiritual conflict, and will most likely live a defeated Christian life. A good conscience is one that allows me to look every person in the eye knowing that not one of them can point a finger at me and say, "You wronged me and you never tried to make it right."

Satan will flood your mind with all sorts of reasons why you shouldn't clear your conscience. He'll help you rationalise every situation away. But remember, a failure to clear our conscience will give ground in our life to Satan giving him opportunity to attack our family, and will produce conflicts, bitterness and guilt. It will affect our decisions, and our relationships with others, but most importantly it will affect our relationship with God. Psalm 66:18 says, "If I regard iniquity in my heart, the Lord will not hear me." Prv 28:13: "He that covereth his sins shall not prosper, but whoso confesseth and forsaketh them shall have mercy."

Thirdly, it says that Job FEARED GOD

Proverbs 9:10 The fear of the LORD [is] the beginning of wisdom: and the knowledge of the holy [is] understanding.

Wisdom starts with the awareness that I am in the presence of a holy, just, and almighty God, and that every thought, word, action, and deed is open before Him and is being judged by Him. That is going to have a profound impact upon how you live!

The greatest influence for Jesus Christ upon my own life was my Godly father. Everyday I was confronted with the reality of his commitment to Jesus Christ in our home. You see the home is where you discover the reality of a person’s spirituality. If you want to see how an animal really behaves, you don't go to the zoo or circus where they are on display or perform, you go to it's natural habitat - it's day by day environment.If you want to find out what a Christian is really like, where do you go? You don't go to the Church! No, you must go to the home. If you want to find out the sincerity of a man's commitment to Jesus Christ and to following Biblical principles, you don't ask his Pastor or Church leaders, you need to ask his wife and children. I am convinced that the reality of a person's spirituality is not found in the church, but in the home.And I am becoming increasingly disturbed at what I see happening in the homes of Christians. If our Christianity is going to be effective in reaching a lost world for Jesus Christ, then it must first prove itself in the Christian home.Do your children or grandchildren, see the reality of your spirituality in the home? Do they see you behave one way in the church and another way in the home? Your children - more than any others - will resent your hypocrisy and inconsistencies and most likely reject the God you claim to be serving!

Finally, it says that Job ESCHEWED EVIL

The word actually means to "hate" evil, to decline or avoid at all costs.

Whenever our goal as believers is to serve God and to live lives of wholeness and purity before Christ, there comes a day in our walk with the Lord when we need to do an inventory check and get rid of things in our homes and lives that are not God-honouring and do not belong.

"Do not bring a detestable thing into your house or you, like it, will be set apart for destruction" (Deuteronomy 7:26).

There are many things that we as Christian's unsuspectingly bring into our homes that are causing destruction in our families. A number of years ago, after realising implications of Deut 7:26, Audrey and I did some housecleaning. We purposed to rid our home of anything and everything that was not God-honouring and did not belong.

We went around our home from room to room and collected records, tapes, magazines and books. The hardest thing for me to get rid of was the TV. But like a trojan horse it had come into our home and was constantly bombarding us with humanistic ideas, blasphemy and immorality. Now I'm not suggesting everyone needs to get rid of their TV, but I am suggesting that everyone needs to learn to control it because of the consequences it will have not only in your life but in lives of your children.....

I wonder Christian husband/father, could God say of you as He was able to say of Job that you are perfect, that you are morally pure. And if there is any moral impurity in your life, would you ask God to forgive you and would you ask Him to take back the ground that you have given to Satan.

I wonder, could God say of you as He was able to say of Job that you are upright, that you have a clear conscience. And if there is anyone whom you know you have offended, would you ask God to forgive you, would you purpose to ask their forgiveness and would you ask Him to take back the ground that you have given to Satan.

I wonder, could God say of you as He was able to say of Job that you are a man that fears God. Do your children or grandchildren, see the reality of your spirituality in the home? Do they see you behave one way in the church and another way in the home? If there have been inconsistencies or double standards, would you ask God to forgive you and would you ask Him to take back the ground that you have given to Satan.

I wonder, could God say of you as He was able to say of Job that you hate evil. If there are things in your home that should not be there, would you ask God to forgive you, would you purpose to get rid of them, and would you ask Him to take back the ground that you have given to Satan.

Sources used for compiling this mailing:

* The Online Bible
* The Basic Seminar Textbook

[Flaming_Redhead]

The Apostle Paul in the Christian Bible was rather adamant about women submitting to their husbands, and being under the headship of their fathers before they marry.

In addition to the wife's complete submission to the spiritual head of the home, he is also to love her "as Christ loves the Church" (church being body of believers in Jesus as the Messiah)

I am wondering if this is comparible to the BDSM lifestyle. Do you see it that way? Or do you see that not all women are being commanded to be submissives? That women in this role are choosing it and therefore it is totally other?

Women have been rebelling against these scriptures for years, wanting (demanding) more control over their lives and spirituality. Just curious as to your thoughts on this. Do you see the D/s lifestyle having more freedom and respect for the woman than these scriptures?

*I realize submissives can be both men and women, but the Bible clearly does not put man under woman nor does it acknowledge transgenders, so it's not applicable to my question. Though feel free to give your thoughts on this.

I can see some definite similarities in certain aspects of the BDSM lifestyle. However, the lifestyle was not modeled after biblical teachings. It was actually started by homosexual veterans of WWII who enjoyed the strict military protocol. As lesbians, bisexuals and heterosexuals became involved in the scene, the Old Guard's strict rules and exclusivity were replaced by a more casual and relaxed community where couples are free to practice their own style. Interestingly enough, though, when I first started investigating BDSM, I felt that I had a higher chance of success for finding the type of man I was looking for, one suitable to be the head of the household, in this community rather than just dating random guys in the vanilla world.

God gave everyone free will, including women, so submission is always a choice. Women have been rebelling since the Garden of Eden. When Eve ate the forbidden fruit, Adam was with her. Instead of protecting her from the serpent and stopping her from disobeying, he followed her example and ate some, too. Then, he blamed it on her instead of taking responsibility. God cursed the woman, saying "Your desire will be for your husband, and he will rule over you." To Adam, he said, "Because you listened to your wife and ate from the tree about which I commanded you, "You must not eat of it," cursed is the ground because of you."

I don't see the D/s lifestyle as having more freedom and respect than scripture. I see that more people in the lifestyle are practicing scripture, whether consciously or not, than vanilla people. I love the verse Rhabbi posted, Ephesians 5:22-33. I also like this one from the Old Testament. Does this sound like a woman oppressed?

"A wife of noble character who can find? She is worth far more than rubies. Her husband has full confidence in her and lacks nothing of value. She brings him good, not harm, all the days of her life. She selects wool and flax and works with eager hands. She is like the merchant ships, bringing her food from afar. She gets up while it is still dark; she provides food for her family and portions for her servant girls. She considers a field and buys it; out of her earnings she plants a vineyard. She sets about her work vigorously; her arms are strong for her tasks. She sees that her trading is profitable, and her lamp does not go out at night. In her hand she holds the distaff and grasps the spindle with her fingers. She opens her arms to the poor and extends her hands to the needy. When it snows, she has no fear for her household; for all of them are clothed in scarlet. She makes coverings for her bed; she is clothed in fine linen and purple. Her husband is respected at the city gate, where he takes his seat among the elders of the land. She makes linen garments and sells them, and supplies the merchants with sashes. She is clothed with strength and dignity; she can laugh at the days to come. She speaks with wisdom, and faithful instruction is on her tongue. She watches over the affairs of her household and does not eat the bread of idleness. Her children arise and call her blessed; her husband also, and he praises her: "Many women do noble things, but you surpass them all." Charm is deceptive, and beauty is fleeting; but a woman who fears the Lord is to be praised. Give her the reward she has earned, and let her works bring her praise at the city gate." Proverbs 31:10-31

As far as submissive men and scripture, whatever a man and his wife do in the bedroom is between them. Their bodies belong to each other. "The husband should fulfill his marital duty to his wife, and likewise the wife to her husband. The wife's body does not belong to her alone but also to her husband. In the same way, the husband's body does not belong to him alone but also to his wife." 1 Corinthians 7:3-4

[Rhabbi]

Excellant post Red. Did you know thare are groups that are devoted to the lifestyle you are looking to live? Look for Traditional Marraige, Head of Houshpld, and Loviving Domestic Discipline on Yahoo and Google.

[Flaming_Redhead]

No, Rhabbi, I did not know that.

[Hime]

I don't see it as the same thing at all. The Bible proscribes roles based on gender, and to me whether a person is Submissive or Dominant has nothing to do with their gender. I do not believe that women are "naturally" more submissive than men, and it actually makes me kind of mad when people suggest that. As Red mentioned, D/s was originally a community of gay men, meaning that a large number of them had to be submissive. We currently live in a world where male domination is considered more acceptable, meaning that fewer women are free to explore their dominant sides.

I don't submit to my husband because I'm a woman, or because I'm his wife. I do because it is what satisfies me as an individual. I'd have the same reaction to someone saying that I liked certain musicians or voted a certain way because I'm a woman -- I feel that that philosophy takes away from the individual agency that many of us have had to fight for over the years.

[Rhabbi]

I don't see it as the same thing at all. The Bible proscribes roles based on gender, and to me whether a person is Submissive or Dominant has nothing to do with their gender. I do not believe that women are "naturally" more submissive than men, and it actually makes me kind of mad when people suggest that. As Red mentioned, D/s was originally a community of gay men, meaning that a large number of them had to be submissive. We currently live in a world where male domination is considered more acceptable, meaning that fewer women are free to explore their dominant sides.

I don't submit to my husband because I'm a woman, or because I'm his wife. I do because it is what satisfies me as an individual. I'd have the same reaction to someone saying that I liked certain musicians or voted a certain way because I'm a woman -- I feel that that philosophy takes away from the individual agency that many of us have had to fight for over the years.

Although I have to agree with you that the Bible seems to assign roles based on gender, there are those that would argue with that point. There are FemDom Christian groups that see no conflict with Scripture.

As for you submitting to your husband because of who you are, that is what makes submission a beautiful gift between two people.

[MissElizabeth87]

I am a Christian, as well as a *most of the time* Domme. I have actually been trying to work this issue out for myself. But so far, for me, my "relgion" is my personal faith. I believe the big things (Jesus Christ is the son of God, saved me from my sins, etc)... and I try to have good morals in my actions and thoughts. I don't think my faith is or ever was about following a bunch of RULES though... wasn't Christ supposed to come and save us from the rule system of Judaism? it is about a relationship. And I can make sure my relationship with my lil boy toy doesn't get in the way of my relationship with my creator.

But to answer someone who said that BDSM and Faith is unrelated, to someone who truly lives out their life with their faith, every aspect of their life is connected with their faith... BDSM lifestyle included.

[TomOfSweden]

But to answer someone who said that BDSM and Faith is unrelated, to someone who truly lives out their life with their faith, every aspect of their life is connected with their faith... BDSM lifestyle included.

This depends on what is meant with "unrelated". Faith could be what ever you do, not what you want to do. I would argue that what your heart is telling you what to do, is your actual faith. So then as far as being a guide for your actions it is unrelated.

I often get the feeling that in religious discussions "faith" is often used to denote an ideal to be aimed at rather than the actual belief. As if faith is more a discussion regarding what is morally right according to "the rules" rather than what you actually believe is morally right.

Yes, every aspect of your life is connected with your faith. But that's not a question of opinion, that's simply a reality. You cannot chose not to be ruled by your faith, no matter how non-religious you might or might not be. "Faith" isn't a religious word. It's many times deeper than that. Religious discussions just include it a lot due to the nature of religion.

[MissElizabeth87]

You're right, TomofSweden. I guess I should've made that comment a bit more personal.

To ME, my faith is a part of everything in my life. I'm not exactly a very religious person, as I said, I believe my "religion" as described in the Gospels was intended to be about a relationship rather than rules...It was churches that made it about rules. But it means that my relationship with God, as I see it, is a part of everything in my life. Honestly, in a similar way to the way my relationship with my guy is a part of everything in my life. I don't ... pigeon hole things. I mean, I'm not going to get into discussions about my sex life at work, but the people I work with know that I am with my guy. That's the best way I can explain it, I guess.

[hopperboo]

To me (Yes I am a hard core angry atheist) Being a submissive to man (or woman) is allot better, and grants more freedom then being a submissive to god or the bible, If your a submissive out of fear you have a problem and really shouldn't be doing it (because in the end Its not submission its being abused) The end line of all the people who fail to convert me is Well aren't you afraid that God will condemn you to hell? I chose to serve my master out of love, not fear, I except punishment because I like it, not because I am forced. I will not be cajoled, begged or pleaded to be a slave to a god or man that expects me to fear him/it.

If I choose tomorrow to walk away from this life, no one can stop me, or threaten me with damnation, which is allot more freedom then the bible gave me.

I do not believe the Bible preaches fear as the basis to being submissive to God. Especially in the New Testament. It's about accepting responsibility as a human and serving the One who loves us. Fearing to a point? Yes. Even in a D/s a person as fear of the Dominant. It's respecting that power and knowing what can happen if you don't act accordingly.

Back to the topic: I agree with the first post here, that D/s is a natural beginning and yes, I believe the Bible supports that. However, I don't think it's the point of the male being always in "control," I think it's that men and women balance each other out differently in a healthy way. (i.e. God took bone from Adam's rib to symbolize an equal relationship...if he had taken bone from Adam's toe it would have symbolized the female always being submissive, likewise if bone had been taken from Adam's toe which would have symbolized female superiority).

[Virulent]

I do not believe the Bible preaches fear as the basis to being submissive to God. Especially in the New Testament.

Have you read the Bible or New Testament?

"Should you not fear me?" declares the Lord. "Should you not tremble in my presence?"

Since, then, we know what it is to fear the Lord, we try to persuade men...

Come, my children, listen to me; I will teach you the fear of the Lord.

In the council of the holy ones God is greatly feared.

You [O God] are resplendent with light... You alone are to be feared.

...Do not fear what they fear, and do not dread it. The Lord Almighty is the one you are to regard as holy, he is the one you are to fear, he is the one you are to dread.

"Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the one who can destroy both soul and body in hell."

"To you my friends I say: Do not be afraid of those who kill the body and after that can do no more. I will tell you whom to fear; fear him who, after he has killed, has the power to cast into hell. Yes, I tell you, fear him."

My personal favorite:

It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

That's fun to shout at cunts who went to Catholic school as you're flogging them.

I'm pretty sure that all denominations and sects of the JCI family of religions use the fear of their God's wrath as the primary motivator in most things. Don't you even try and sugar-coat this: the primary argument for the JCI faith is that if you do not believe in and worship Him, you're going to be brutally tortured for all eternity.

Further, I think those of us on this forum are uniquely equipped to understand how it can be possible to be a wrathful, terrifying presence, who is simultaneously the definition of Love, to paraphrase Thomas Aquinas. Put another way; the JCI god is a mean fucking dom.

[hopperboo]

Further, I think those of us on this forum are uniquely equipped to understand how it can be possible to be a wrathful, terrifying presence, who is simultaneously the definition of Love

Which is partly what I was trying to get across.

Would you like to go through and look up a whole God loves us.

I said fear wasn't the entire basis of being submissive to God. And it's not. But I suppose each can take it their own way. If one wants to read and apply only the brimstone and fire to their lives and choose that for the reason to follow Christianity so be it. I choose to keep the upper part of my mind how much God loves us, with a healthy does of respect (yes, fear too) in the background.

[Virulent]

You said fear wasn't the basis of religious submission; you just now restated it as it wasn't the entire basis of religious submission.

I agree with the clarified version of your opinion. Anything that has been constantly revised over thousands of years by tens of thousands of people is never going to be so simple as x is always y.

[Kuskovian]

LOL.



Well we must consider that all religions tend to try and place each and everything in it's proper place according to the authors of thier individual dogmas.

So too it is with man and woman, life and death, ethics and sin; in a word dominion.

Whoever created it......it is what it is.

The dominants rule over those who submit.

Where it is essential in nature for dominance to preclude ones own survival; it is remarkable to think a religion that apeals to mercy and weakness would succeed so well.

Or is it?

Has not religion numerously been casually remarked to be yet another tool used to control the massess?

Thrue dominace is rare, as the hierarchy involved requires the one on top to "fear" (respect) his opponents So too those bellow fear those above. It is much like Aristotles Golden Mean. Contstant struggle insues, the proverbial state of war provided by Hobbes prevales in a way.

Wise is the dominant that remembers this well.

Dom/sub? Please .... anthropologically speaking it has existed since the first man stood above his brethern.

The extra testosterone males possess is there for a reason.

Man and woman both have thier duties, thier place in existance....the place where each in and of themselves ..........thrive.

This does not mean there are not exceptions or unique variations present.

What woman wishes to submit to a "weak" man.....and what man does not wish to conquer a strong woman?

Some females are stronger willed than others. Some are harder to subdue. Some men fail to see the advantages of the struggle with thier brothers and submit. Some take issue with thier genders purpose and rebel, even try to mimic thier partners sex, and or become it. Some rail at the inherent preception of weakness in others and over compensate for the absence of what they so desperatly need in thier lives, a reason, a purpose to submit too.

It is purpose that drives us. It is purpose that defines us. ( Matrix humor)

Some find thier purpose is to hold dominion, as nature intended it to be held with thier very last breath if need be.

[hopperboo]

You said fear wasn't the basis of religious submission; you just now restated it as it wasn't the entire basis of religious submission.

Ahh, sorry. I meant it wasn't the entire basis. :s

P.S. I have no idea what my second sentence means. I've re-read it three times. I promise I am not crazy. (Promise).

[Virulent]

I have no idea what my second sentence means. I've re-read it three times. I promise I am not crazy. (Promise).

Ya sure about that? You're here, aren't ya?

What I took it to mean was, "Why don't you make a similar lists of times the Bible says that God loves us? I bet it's way longer". I didn't bother because I don't disagree that the Bible makes both arguments; that God loves us, and we should love Him... and that we should also be terrified of Him, because He will do the most horrific, painful things imaginable to us, for all eternity, if we don't follow all of His rules.

[Pastor]

Wow...

I find conversations of the bible, christianity, and other religions absolutely hilarious... Just check out my nick... But what is so funny to me is the different, and often extreme, views on what each religion and all of its implications.

When, if you have actually read and possible studied the bible/Quran. Like me, you would open your eyes to two of the most vile, gratuitous, immoral, and generalized books ever written by anyone.

I'm not going to get into who wrote what because until you introduce me to a REALLY old person who claims to know it all... Its all just theory. But I will make a claim that the writers of both books were clearly realists when you consider the references and history of both. To be simple, if you think the "lifestyle" is something new... Your crazy...

Now, I'm not claiming Paul was demanding all christians join the lifestyle. But to take the things that the bible said as law and not principal(You do know the difference right?). Is just another example of people limiting themselves and using some really good advice as an excuse to self destruct.

To directly answer the original poster's statement: To see BDSM as a Christian idea is not really an important issue (imho). Submission, as the bible uses the term, is not clearly defined anywhere in the bible. There are many parables and writers that claim to be examples of submission. But the only common thread is that someone else is put before themselves. The bible also claims we should do this for everyone.

So truthfully, I believe that the "details" of a relationship are left out of the marriage description on purpose. If the lifestyle makes you both happy... Great! If it doesn't... Figure it out!

If you get it wrong... Remember, CHRIST said to love the sinner and hate the sin.

Its ironic to me that this, the BDSM family shows the very characteristics of non-judgmental love, forgiveness, and total acceptance that CHRIST requires of the "christians" that would condemn us out of hat if they could find a legitimate platform to do it on...

I am a living, bought with the blood of Christ, Christian. I love my wife in all her many forms... And all of you as well!

-Pastor

[denuseri]

is it a sin if i whorship my owners cock?

lol

[Pastor]

Definitely not... In fact, I can point out a few scriptures that say you should.... Not specifically but, and I quote: " Your body is His and His body is yours..." Okay, paraphrase. Not quote. But you get the idea...

[caligirl{Rob}]

ah makes me think of the quote I once heard

A man has his will, but a woman has her way!

[hopperboo]

LOL, I love that quote.