Legalizing Prostitution?

[TomOfSweden]

Um... legal to sell but illegal to buy?

That just doesn't make sense.

In Sweden it's illegal to buy but not sell. And you are quite correct in that it makes no sense.

[TomOfSweden]

i personally feel that prostiuition should be illegalised only for those who ffer it i.e. the prostitutes themselves, a high percentage of which are assualt/rape survivors, many of whom have turned to selling themselves as a last resort due to desperate poverty and/or drug addiction. (in Glasgow, for example, 98% of prostitutes have substance abuse issues). Those who buy them, who profit from human misery, should suffer the full consequences of the law.

There's a few problems here.

Where's the link between assault/rape survivors and suffering when they sell themselves? Its implied and does not follow.

Last year a Swedish research team found that 100% of all Swedish 18 year old women had at one point been the victim of sexual assault. I'm not saying that is a good thing, only that sexual assault is very common. Saying generalised stuff about sexual assaut victims is a bit silly because it seems to cover everyone. I also think that Swedish men are probably less likely to assault a woman sexualy than other countries, since it's extremly easy to get laid here, (with concenting woman).

Ok, next problem. Women being forced into prostitution because of addiction is because of the lack of suport for drug adicts. This has nothing to do with prostitution as such. You can't blame the symptom for the sickness.

Next problem. Making it illegal to buy rather than sell is probably worse for the prostitutes. We have that in Sweden. Before they only had to worry about getting caught themselves, but now they have to worry about their customer getting caught, which means they do even riskier things than before, going to far away secluded places. Which unsurprisingly has led to them getting assaulted more than before.

I'm sorry if I sound a bit harsh now, but I'm really sick of feminists full of teary eyed opinions without any basis in reality. So we want people not to suffer. That's great and we agree so far. But that's probably where your post should have stopped.

[~*crimson_flower*~]

There's a few problems here.

Where's the link between assault/rape survivors and suffering when they sell themselves? Its implied and does not follow.

Last year a Swedish research team found that 100% of all Swedish 18 year old women had at one point been the victim of sexual assault. I'm not saying that is a good thing, only that sexual assault is very common. Saying generalised stuff about sexual assaut victims is a bit silly because it seems to cover everyone. .

i don't think it is, actually. Sexual victimisation rates are not generally at 100% in many demographic groups(in the UK for example, they're estimated as being about 33% of women) and when they are, i think that's cause for concern. Are survivors moving into these fields due to emotional problems from their assault? Did they develop substance abuse problems due to their assault and prostitute themselves to pay for them? Were they shunned by their community and took up prostiution due to that? Are the men who frequent prostitues more likely to be abusive? Whatever the reasons, prostitutes are a seriously damaged group and contributing to that by buying their bodies is just disgusting.

I also think that Swedish men are probably less likely to assault a woman sexualy than other countries, since it's extremly easy to get laid here, (with concenting woman).

i see that assumption, that men rape because they aren't getting sex, more than a little fallcious because it assumes that rape is primarily about sex. It isn't. It incoporates sex, sure, but it also incorporates holding down another human being and forcing yourself on them. It assumed rape is about sex when many men in existing sexual realtionships go out and rape random women. They could get consensual sex. They don't want it. They want power.

Ok, next problem. Women being forced into prostitution because of addiction is because of the lack of suport for drug adicts. This has nothing to do with prostitution as such. You can't blame the symptom for the sickness.

And the answer to that is to leave things as they are or realise that most women in prostiution are there out of desperation, not choice, and need help to get out i.e. better benefits, more support in finding homes/jobs, and not men preying on them for sex when they essentailly can't say no due to their desperation?

Next problem. Making it illegal to buy rather than sell is probably worse for the prostitutes. We have that in Sweden. Before they only had to worry about getting caught themselves, but now they have to worry about their customer getting caught, which means they do even riskier things than before, going to far away secluded places. Which unsurprisingly has led to them getting assaulted more than before.

i'd like to see statistics on that, but even if true, it doesn't make the law fatally flawed. it'd undoubtedly lead to fewer men using the women and those that did so could be prosecuted. If there are fewer men going out to usedesperate women for sex, demand decreases. Are you syaing it was perviosuly illegal only for the prostitute and not the client in Sweden?

I'm sorry if I sound a bit harsh now, but I'm really sick of feminists full of teary eyed opinions without any basis in reality. So we want people not to suffer. That's great and we agree so far. But that's probably where your post should have stopped.

i disagree. i'm used to such arguments but they don't sound harsh to me, just more based on a desire to come to a particular conclusion than on the evidence on display. If wanting people to understand that using a woman for sex when she's essentially sick and exploititive is tery eyed, well, why shouldn't it be, considering what these poor women are put through? They need society's help to get out of prostituition, not wishful arguments for legitimising the problem.

[TomOfSweden]

i don't think it is, actually. Sexual victimisation rates are not generally at 100% in many demographic groups(in the UK for example, they're estimated as being about 33% of women) and when they are, i think that's cause for concern. Are survivors moving into these fields due to emotional problems from their assault? Did they develop substance abuse problems due to their assault and prostitute themselves to pay for them? Were they shunned by their community and took up prostiution due to that? Are the men who frequent prostitues more likely to be abusive? Whatever the reasons, prostitutes are a seriously damaged group and contributing to that by buying their bodies is just disgusting.

Ok, here is more problems. The percentage of women who've suffered sexual asault will off-course vary regarding where you put the limit. If the limit is set at full vaginal intercourse it'll probably be a whole lot lower than 33%.

Your just assuming that prostitutes are a damaged group of people who wouldn't do it if they had a choice. There's quite a few very vocal prostitutes in Germany, (where it's legal) who would disagree. The only reason they don't speak up in Brittain or Sweden, is because it'll make their job more difficult.

The reason anybody would work with prostitution is off-course that it's very well paid in relation to the amount of work done.

But you made your stance pretty clear. You have a moralistic stance where you're saying prostitution is disgusting. But it's no case for anything. You might as well quote the bible.

I hope you agree that in a free society people should be free to make whatever choices they do, no matter how much other people might think it "disgusting"? As long as it isn't rubbed in their faces off-course. Scat sex is legal and is well kept indoors

i see that assumption, that men rape because they aren't getting sex, more than a little fallcious because it assumes that rape is primarily about sex. It isn't. It incoporates sex, sure, but it also incorporates holding down another human being and forcing yourself on them. It assumed rape is about sex when many men in existing sexual realtionships go out and rape random women. They could get consensual sex. They don't want it. They want power.

It's a valid case and I've read plenty of books on psychoanalysis which coroborate this. But lets not get away from the issue. Just becuase rape isn't about sex, doesn't effect the issue of prostitution.

And the answer to that is to leave things as they are or realise that most women in prostiution are there out of desperation, not choice, and need help to get out i.e. better benefits, more support in finding homes/jobs, and not men preying on them for sex when they essentailly can't say no due to their desperation?

Yes, but here is the logical gap. If they didn't get money from prostitution, they'd need to get it from somewhere else, right? If they're addicts and they aren't getting rehab they're fresh out of choices. I wouldn't call a man taking advantage of her predicament as preying on her. This is how capitalism work. If your needs are very high, then you need to raise the cash somehow.

But this is all assuming most prostitutes are crack-heads. Last year I read a report on prostitution in Stockholm done by our crime prevention govornement agency. It concluded that most Stockholm prostitutes where university students, (that's grad school in USA). And yes they did it out of financial desperation. They didn't want to take loans, or work at McDonalds which is highly understandable.

Google "Felicitas Wiegmann" if you want to hear what a very vocal German prostitution proponent and prostitute has to say on the matter.

i'd like to see statistics on that, but even if true, it doesn't make the law fatally flawed. it'd undoubtedly lead to fewer men using the women and those that did so could be prosecuted. If there are fewer men going out to usedesperate women for sex, demand decreases. Are you syaing it was perviosuly illegal only for the prostitute and not the client in Sweden?

No, it has no impact what so ever on the number of men who use prostitutes. There's the same problem with drug laws. When both the buyer and seller are willing, they'll do what it takes to circumvent the law. In Iran they have the death penalty for prostitution, but it's just as prevalent there as anywhere else.

All numbers I have access to are in Swedish.
http://www.bra.se/
All there research is available free on pdf and easy to download. The kink is that you need to know Swedish

Just to be clear on this. This is a govornement agency, they're not allowed to have opinions, only publish numbers. The official Swedish govornement line is the same as yours. But it's not based on science.

i disagree. i'm used to such arguments but they don't sound harsh to me, just more based on a desire to come to a particular conclusion than on the evidence on display. If wanting people to understand that using a woman for sex when she's essentially sick and exploititive is tery eyed, well, why shouldn't it be, considering what these poor women are put through? They need society's help to get out of prostituition, not wishful arguments for legitimising the problem.

I think you're being extremly judgemental without any arguments other than just opinons to back it up.

From the same govorment agency I read a report on trafficking. ie forcibly taking women from where ever and forcing them to work in brothels for no money. The problem here is that it is all based on what the prostituted women say. If they tell the cops that they're forced to be there, they have everything to gain. They may get permanent visa. But if they came there by free will they'll invariably get sent back as an economic immigrant. Not to mention the social stigma. You have to be very careful when you read statistics. The ones who don't get caught we off-course hear nothing about.

I'm not saying all prostitution is great. But until I find any serious arguments against it I don't understand why we should keep it illegal. Right now prostitutes have very weak protection from the law because of it's illegal status. And all arguments I've heard against it so far are all moralistic.

edit: Just so you know. Prostitution isn't and has never been socialy acceptable in Sweden. That's why there's no movement what so ever here toward legalisation. It's not like further south in Europe. No man here would ever at a party suggest going to a prostitute. It just never happens. Not even when they're on holiday in Thailand. They might do it, but they'll never admit to it.

[~*crimson_flower*~]

Ok, here is more problems. The percentage of women who've suffered sexual asault will off-course vary regarding where you put the limit. If the limit is set at full vaginal intercourse it'll probably be a whole lot lower than 33%.

Actually that stat refers to any sexual abuse under the age of 18. It's from the UK Zero Tolerance project. I can link it, if you like.

Your just assuming that prostitutes are a damaged group of people who wouldn't do it if they had a choice. There's quite a few very vocal prostitutes in Germany, (where it's legal) who would disagree. The only reason they don't speak up in Brittain or Sweden, is because it'll make their job more difficult.

The rest might not be speaking out publicly, but you can't assume that if they did, they'd be talking about how wonderful it is, particularly given the conditions they work under. One "happy hooker" doesn't negate what prostituition does to women. Some might go in and come out of the industry relatively unscathed, but these can't be held up as proof that all do. See this document for more: http://www.icasa.org/uploads/prostitution.pdf

Particualrly the part which says 96% of prostitutes claimed they entered the profession because they saw no other option.

The reason anybody would work with prostitution is off-course that it's very well paid in relation to the amount of work done.

See above.

But you made your stance pretty clear. You have a moralistic stance where you're saying prostitution is disgusting. But it's no case for anything. You might as well quote the bible.

There's a huge difference between opposing pornography based on a 2000 year old and text and supporting the illegalisation of buying sex for reasons such as these from the document above.

68% of respondents had been raped while prostituiting.
82% had been beaten.

These prostitutes aren't hurting themselves. Those stats say a hell of a lot about the type of man that frequents prostitutes in my opinion, and society as a whole would benefit from those men not being out on the streets.

I hope you agree that in a free society people should be free to make whatever choices they do, no matter how much other people might think it "disgusting"? As long as it isn't rubbed in their faces off-course. Scat sex is legal and is well kept indoors

I don't anyone legal sexual practice because it's disgusting, but instead decide thse things based on whether or not harm is endemic in the act, or the act depends on human desperation and misery.

Yes, but here is the logical gap. If they didn't get money from prostitution, they'd need to get it from somewhere else, right? If they're addicts and they aren't getting rehab they're fresh out of choices. I wouldn't call a man taking advantage of her predicament as preying on her. This is how capitalism work. If your needs are very high, then you need to raise the cash somehow.

And why does that excuse society leaving women in the position where they have to sell themselves to earn this money instead of providing them with benefits/housing/jobs/training? Our own ambivalence? That just isn't good enough.

But this is all assuming most prostitutes are crack-heads. Last year I read a report on prostitution in Stockholm done by our crime prevention govornement agency. It concluded that most Stockholm prostitutes where university students, (that's grad school in USA). And yes they did it out of financial desperation. They didn't want to take loans, or work at McDonalds which is highly understandable.

Thismust be a cultural difference. In Glasgow, the nearest city to my home, well over 90% of prostitutes had substance abuse issues.

Google "Felicitas Wiegmann" if you want to hear what a very vocal German prostitution proponent and prostitute has to say on the matter.

I can give you links to anti-porn accounts, but one person's testimony doesn't prove anything either way.

No, it has no impact what so ever on the number of men who use prostitutes. There's the same problem with drug laws. When both the buyer and seller are willing, they'll do what it takes to circumvent the law. In Iran they have the death penalty for prostitution, but it's just as prevalent there as anywhere else.

All numbers I have access to are in Swedish.
http://www.bra.se/
All there research is available free on pdf and easy to download. The kink is that you need to know Swedish

Just to be clear on this. This is a govornement agency, they're not allowed to have opinions, only publish numbers. The official Swedish govornement line is the same as yours. But it's not based on science.


I think you're being extremly judgemental without any arguments other than just opinons to back it up.

You haven't actually provided much beyond opinion either, actually. I think we maybe reaching a stalemate here. Arguing opinion, spicially when our experiences are based on such different cultures, can only go so far.

From the same govorment agency I read a report on trafficking. ie forcibly taking women from where ever and forcing them to work in brothels for no money. The problem here is that it is all based on what the prostituted women say. If they tell the cops that they're forced to be there, they have everything to gain. They may get permanent visa. But if they came there by free will they'll invariably get sent back as an economic immigrant. Not to mention the social stigma. You have to be very careful when you read statistics. The ones who don't get caught we off-course hear nothing about.

I agree, any statistics can be misleading. From both sides of the argument.

I'm not saying all prostitution is great. But until I find any serious arguments against it I don't understand why we should keep it illegal. Right now prostitutes have very weak protection from the law because of it's illegal status. And all arguments I've heard against it so far are all moralistic.

What's wrong with basing you opinion on morality? I think it's immoral to exploit women in need, so it motivates my opinion. To some extent I think morality influences every ones.

edit: Just so you know. Prostitution isn't and has never been socialy acceptable in Sweden. That's why there's no movement what so ever here toward legalisation. It's not like further south in Europe. No man here would ever at a party suggest going to a prostitute. It just never happens. Not even when they're on holiday in Thailand. They might do it, but they'll never admit to it.

I wish they would: it'd tell me which men to stay WELL away from.

[TomOfSweden]

Particualrly the part which says 96% of prostitutes claimed they entered the profession because they saw no other option.

MCDonalds is always hiring. There's always options. They might tell themselves that but truth is that they don't have to do it. Nobody in the west has to do jack shit.

These prostitutes aren't hurting themselves. Those stats say a hell of a lot about the type of man that frequents prostitutes in my opinion, and society as a whole would benefit from those men not being out on the streets.

All men who go to prostitututes or just the ones who beat them? I'm just gauging your views on the issue.

I don't anyone legal sexual practice because it's disgusting, but instead decide thse things based on whether or not harm is endemic in the act, or the act depends on human desperation and misery.

You still haven't explained while prostitution is endemically harmful? In Sweden its legal status means that its very hard for the state to keep an eye on them. In Germany most prostitutes work in brothels where the security is very tight. If your main issue with prostitution is the number or rapes or beatings, making it legal will solve the problem, right?

And why does that excuse society leaving women in the position where they have to sell themselves to earn this money instead of providing them with benefits/housing/jobs/training? Our own ambivalence? That just isn't good enough.

You're just assuming they have to sell themselves.

Thismust be a cultural difference. In Glasgow, the nearest city to my home, well over 90% of prostitutes had substance abuse issues.

It also helps if your hometown is a huge university city. Stockholm university is massive compared to the size of Stockholm. I got surprised when I read it to. Off-course when your doing studies on something shady the statistics will always be ify. Its legal status makes it very hard.

We have the worst subsatance abuse rehab system in Europe. No country gives less money per capita to it than us. Not by far. We have the highest mortality rate of drug adicts in all of Europe.

We also have a zero tollerance system both against drugs and prostitution. Sweden proves that moralism doesn't work. Making it illegal doesn't protect the women. The logical error here is always that stuff made illegal will stop or recede. I think it's helpful to think of a market as a powerful river. We can't stop it with laws, only limit it's damages by channeling it into less damaging areas.

I can give you links to anti-porn accounts, but one person's testimony doesn't prove anything either way.

Well, hers does. She was to a large part responsible of making it legal in Germany.

You haven't actually provided much beyond opinion either, actually. I think we maybe reaching a stalemate here. Arguing opinion, spicially when our experiences are based on such different cultures, can only go so far.

I don't think Scotland and Sweden are all that different culturaly. Scotland has a Calvinist background which is Martin Luther on steroids. Same extreme moralistic foundation.

What's wrong with basing you opinion on morality? I think it's immoral to exploit women in need, so it motivates my opinion. To some extent I think morality influences every ones.

Not morality, moralism. Ok, I'll rewrite your sentance a smidgeon and you might see what I mean with moralism.

"I think it's immoral to help a women in need, so it motivates my opinion."

The same sentance but moralistically different slant. Your assuming that everybody who pays for sex are taking advantage of the prostitute. You make the sex buyer look like a monster. I just don't see it. As with any bussiness transaction it can go better or worse. I don't believe the woman is always on the losing end.

If she's on drugs she needs to raise lots of money. You haven't explained how she would do it if she didn't prostitute herself? Men on heroin steal stuff. Is that in any way better? I'd argue that it isn't safer for the woman in the least.

But this is assuming most prostitutes are on drugs. How about escorts? They don't have to fuck if they don't want to. Are they prostitutes? Or the people working at the local swingers club here. They fuck for money? In a sense. Shitty pay though

My point is that I know women who are sluts. Women who actually like fucking. And who aren't too picky. They just like plenty of cock. My ex was just like it. She told me that if she had been in a financial squeeze when it came to money she'd do it in a second. We even talked about how we would set it up.

I personally think you're just projecting. You assume that just because you would never sell your body for money, that no woman would do it if they didn't have to. People are different. When I was younger I've been offered money by gay men for sex, and I've been very tempted. I'm just not particularly gay, so I passed on it.

I think it comes down to how big a deal you personaly think sex is. A lot of women think its something sacred only to be given out of love. This raises the price on it for the women who don't share this view. Capitalism at work.

[ElectricBadger]

In my opinion, claiming a society has the right to make prositution illegal implies a degree of ownership over people's bodies that is difficult to justify with an argument of preventing a threat to the social order. Gambling and alcohol have been addressed as such, and attempts to stifle them didn't work much, and when those were reversed, and they were legalized and regulated, the damage was minimized.

And looking at it simply as an unpopular, mind damaging, corrupting vocation is just silly too; now-routine tasks like working machinery, sailing, or acting were once considered unhealthy, suicidal or unwholesome.