Patriotism

[TomOfSweden]

Images: the usual ones ... Wallace, Bruce, bagpipes, haggis, tartan, family, football, Celtic, Rangers, bigotry, poverty, drunkenness, puke on the streets on a Friday night. Does that help?

My point is that love for your country is based on small things in your immediate surroundings, that you personally have experienced. These are unique for you. There's no such thing as a general and commonly accepted idea of Scottishness.

The end of a line of thought is where you choose to stop. Even you, Tom, have not thought this question through so far that there is nothing further to consider. But you have stopped. Maybe you will return to consider it further, but still you will not reach the ultimate conclusion. How valid, then is your present position?

There's nothing wrong in my being satisfied that I made a choice for romantic reasons. Maybe, for me to pursue the line of thought further would be to work out a rationale for making a choice I would be uncomfortable with. It would be a reasonable choice, but I might refuse to make it because I prefer my romantic conclusion. Many decisions in this world are founded upon prejudice rather than reason: my choice will not upset the balance of things. I challenge you to show that there is nothing in your line of argument founded upon some prejudice or other.

Well, this is where philosophy comes in. We have to accept various theories that take a hell of a lot of explaining than I have time for. I'm not sure I could. Philosophy is a amazingly difficult subject. Schopenhauer was the one who introduced that we thought in symbols. Everything we do symbolizes one of our pretty basic drives. Freud added some things of his own to Schopenhauer's system. And nobody has yet convincingly been able to show flaws in it, even though plenty have tried.

So the basic question must be. What does Scotland symbolize for you? When you say to yourself, "I am Scottish". What happens in your head? I'm guessing you get filled with pride. That is where I'm getting at. Where does this pride come from. What does Scotland and Scottishness symbolize to you? Why does it make you react emotionally?

A nation is an abstract. It's like a rectangle in maths. If you don't load it up with emotional value it will do nothing for you. It's not like a babies face, which we are pre-programmed to react to.

The point is, I associate myself with the "tribe" I wish to be associated with. It's a big tribe - a nation. If that makes me feel better, then good - and I don't see why I should be criticised for it. But I'm not claiming to be made a better person through the association. And I'm not claiming a share of other Scots' achievements.

We always associate ourselves with tribes all the time. It's a major part of what being human is all about. Nothing wrong with that. If I remember correctly, the biggest tribe our minds can handle is about 30. Bigger than that and we sub-consciously start dividing it up into smaller more manageable groups, sub-tribes. Behavioural psychology isn't really science so let's not get to hung up on numbers here. But we have no way to relate to lots of people. In our heads it quickly turns into an abstract concept for us.

I'm certain that when you are out traveling and you meet another Scottish person, the first thing you do is project your vision of Scottishness,(or whatever sub-tribe you assume they belong to) and work from there. We all do. That's why our brains our so fast. We draw conclusions about things we have only partial evidence to support, very fast.

I can't remember ever watching a football match where I didn't want one side or another to win - even if the reasons were flimsy. To support neither side would mean - for me at least - a level of detachment from the game that takes away all the excitement: to employ your question, what's the point? I find it incredible that you would not rejoice, if only quietly, at your national team's success, but if you are that detached, then I can understand your negative attitude to patriotism a little better.

You have to tell yourself that you have something in common with the national teams players. If you don't, you'll sure as hell feel detached. Because you are. And I totally understand your sentiment. If you don't invest emotionally in one of the sides it quickly becomes pointless. At least on other levels than the world cup. Watching beautiful ball play is pure fucking art, no matter what team you're rooting for.

For me there is nothing wrong with patriotism, it's jingoism that sucks

I think it's the same concept. It just differs in degree. One is vocal about the national chauvinism and and the other is tacit about it. But I guess we disagree here.