Patriotism

[ThisYouWillDo]

Right ... now I'm really out of my depth! But, although I cannot deny that what you say seems convincing and logical, I don't accept it . There seeems to me to be a basic flaw in your argument. Nations do exist and people are proud to belong to them. Unless you say they are all romantic freeloaders like me, then it takes some explaining, doesn't it?

TYWD

[gloombunny]

They're all romantic freeloaders like you.


(Actually I'm not clear on what you mean by "freeloaders" here...)

[TomOfSweden]

Right ... now I'm really out of my depth! But, although I cannot deny that what you say seems convincing and logical, I don't accept it . There seeems to me to be a basic flaw in your argument. Nations do exist and people are proud to belong to them. Unless you say they are all romantic freeloaders like me, then it takes some explaining, doesn't it?

TYWD

I think that the problem is that I'm just not good enough at this. I just suck too much at explaining philosophy. It's not being a freeloader. It's identifying with an image that doesn't exist. Strictly speaking it doesn't really matter to me who or what you identify with. But there's a communication gap between what it means to you and other Scots. So what is patriotism if you can't agree on that basic thing?

On top of that I think it doesn't really help world politics and can be dangerous when in the hands of morons, (ie neo nazis and other racist nationalists).

But I'm not sure how I could say this any better so I'll just bow out and hope someone else here is better than me at this. Please help

[ThisYouWillDo]

They're all romantic freeloaders like you.


(Actually I'm not clear on what you mean by "freeloaders" here...)

Lol - Natalie: it was a reference to something Tom said that offended me ... but I'm over it now.

I think that the problem is ... identifying with an image that doesn't exist ... there's a communication gap between what it means to you and other Scots. So what is patriotism if you can't agree on that basic thing?

Is there a gap? I've never been aware of it. OK - there are differences - but they aren't communication gaps. But we all agree, for example, that we'd rather be Scots than any other nationality. And we can do this without a thought as to what the truth is about its status in the United Kingdom or in the world. We are certain in our knowledge that Scotland is the best country in the world, just as Americans know that the USA is, and as (most?) Swedes know that Sweden is. And we know we cannot defend ourselves against pure logic, but we don't care.

On top of that I think it doesn't really help world politics and can be dangerous when in the hands of morons, (ie neo nazis and other racist nationalists).

Agreed: no argument. But if they can't use patriotism as a vehicle for expressing their beliefs, they will find something else, sadly.

But I'm not sure how I could say this any better so I'll just bow out and hope someone else here is better than me at this.

You've done a grand job, as far as I can see. Your problem was you were debating with someone who couldn't keep up (me). I do understand that a nation is an artificial entity, just like a corporation is. It makes no more difference to belong to any one nation than it does to work for any corporation*. Nevertheless, I am proud to have worked for the companies that have employed me. And, without being fanatical about it, I am proud of being a Scot. I'm proud of my English side, too, even if only to a lesser extent.

Maybe this thread is concluded, but if it isn't, then use short words, simple ideas and type slowly!

TYWD

* If you ignore the fact that nations have different living standards and corporations offer different career paths.

[gloombunny]

Is there a gap? I've never been aware of it. OK - there are differences - but they aren't communication gaps. But we all agree, for example, that we'd rather be Scots than any other nationality. And we can do this without a thought as to what the truth is about its status in the United Kingdom or in the world. We are certain in our knowledge that Scotland is the best country in the world, just as Americans know that the USA is, and as (most?) Swedes know that Sweden is.

If you all agree that being Scottish is the best, but you have different ideas of what defines Scottish, then are you really agreeing on anything?

It's like, uh... if I were to say "My favorite color is blue!" and someone else said "Hey, mine too!", but I'm thinking navy and he's thinking of some sort of bright cyan, then do we actually have anything in common? Or do we just think we do because we're using vague language?