Discriminating the death penalty?

[isabeau6]

i've always been against the death penalty..it makes us no better than the killer...who are we to decide someone's death? that's like playing God...however lately i've been wondering about discriminate death sentences..i mean serial killers such as Ted Bundy who had no conscious whatsoever...and went to his death like the coward he was...and pedophiles, child rapists and/or killers...to take a child and do despicable things to that innocent soul...and then to kill said child in some awful horrible way..such as the ass from Florida who buried poor little Jessica alive, and her crying for her mother...and holding her stuffed toy...but i suppose the argument then would be..who decides who gets death then? who decides which person/s would benefit the most from that death? and in the long run, it doesn't bring the victim back..but imagine being a parent, whose child has been taken from their bed, as Danielle Van Damn was taken, and experiencing what would turn out to be their worst nightmare...David Westerfield is on death row, but the CA laws will make it years before he gets the death penalty...

any thoughts?

[_ID_]

capital punishment can fall into that realm of political debate that is along with abortion and assisted suicide or euthanasia.

Personally, I feel as if the person under threat of death penalty should only be there if there is no chance of rehabilitation. Such as Ted Bundy, Charles Manson or other such people. If they can't be rehabilitated, then why continue to provide them health care, and food. When we don't do it for the homeless, or other impoverished.

[isabeau6]

capital punishment can fall into that realm of political debate that is along with abortion and assisted suicide or euthanasia.

Personally, I feel as if the person under threat of death penalty should only be there if there is no chance of rehabilitation. Such as Ted Bundy, Charles Manson or other such people. If they can't be rehabilitated, then why continue to provide them health care, and food. When we don't do it for the homeless, or other impoverished.

good point..and also most child molesters/rapists/pedophiles also say there is no rehabilation for them also...and to me there is nothing worse than a child killer/rapist..what have you...and i'm always an advocate for the homeless...

[Dorkalicious]

Could always go with George Carlin's idea... If I find any quotes I'll post them.

I am hoping that someone here will know what I am talking about, lol.

[nk_lion]

I think the death penalty is used more as a deterent, or bargining tool then anything else.

If we are to trust courts with matters of our civil liberties, our rights and freedoms, overall our well fare, then I think it's not a far stretch to allow them to judge if a person should be put to death.

At the moment, I'm still on the fence about the death penalty, so this is just the first thing that came into my mind when I read your question.

[_ID_]

Could always go with George Carlin's idea... If I find any quotes I'll post them.

I am hoping that someone here will know what I am talking about, lol.

the fences, and letting the different criminals kill each other. If I am guessing right.

[TomOfSweden]

I think the death penalty is used more as a deterent, or bargining tool then anything else.

If we are to trust courts with matters of our civil liberties, our rights and freedoms, overall our well fare, then I think it's not a far stretch to allow them to judge if a person should be put to death.

There's been masses of research in this. Death penalty isn't a deterrent for anything. The stiffness of the penalty is never a deterrent for any crime. Nobody commits a crime if they think they might get caught. It's pretty basic. The only real deterrent is the perceived chance of getting caught.

Having the "death penalty as deterrent" in a political program has always been a rhetoric/propaganda tool to win over stupid voters. Don't be one of them. If you fall for it you are encouraging politicians to treat us even more like idiots. Not that I can imagine how it could get any worse, but you never know.

It's also arguable that serial killers, like Bundy have a brain damage. As the theory goes, they all have the same kind of frontal lobe damage. Isn't it a bit like sentencing someone to death because they have a deadly disease?

I don't really have an opinion about the death penalty, or any punishments. Science shows that all criminal punishments are a complete waste of time. The more we punish and the harder we punish, the more criminals we get, (unless they're executed he he). It's a lose-lose. I off-course realize that it's good having a criminal system and putting them away. For revenge if nothing else. Always nice to see somebody who've hurt you suffer. But I do also realize that it is pointless. All efforts must be made in preventing the crime being committed in the first place. Once it's been carried out it's too late. And the longer we put the criminal away, the larger the chance he/she will commit it again.

[ElectricBadger]

Hmmm...tough one. I'm on the fence; I understand the need for the death penalty but I despise having it institutionalized in government.

In my mind, the death penalty is not about revenge, or justice, or deterence...it is about eliminating threats to innocents. If a disease kills people, we contain it and destroy it...we don't debate its right to exist as a fellow life form, or whether or not it was genetic evolution that caused it. The same is true of murderers and those who commit crimes worse than murder; unless we can discover a method of rehabilitation that will reduce the odds of a repeat offense to equal to that of any other person committing a first offense, it is criminal NOT to take actions that decrease the danger to another innocent. There is no leeway for insanity, or excuses other than defense of life (personally, I don't believe any sane people are capable of committing a non-defensive murder anyways).

On the other hand, governments, in my personal opinion, are inherently unjust (acting and existing for the sole purpose of forcing individuals to perform acts against their will). Governments should never have the authority to institutionalize violence (although all governments do). So I'm left with the only option that individuals, as vigilantes, are the only ones justified in killing threats. Which hosts a problem or two of its own

[isabeau6]

the thing about the death penalty being a deterrent is a bunch of crock sorry..it hasn't kept these murderers from kidnapping and raping small children..i don't know what is the answer...i know i'm against the death penalty..always have been...i mean who is to say we should decide who lives an dies..and that reminds me that we should never have allowed Timothy MacVeigh the right to choose when he died..did he give those victims any choice? i'm soo though pulled when it comes to child killers...those are the innocent of the innocent....also i can't understand those who harm animals...

[Ocean_Soul]

Right you are Tom. Couldn't have said it better myself... In fact, definitely couldn't have.

[anonymouse]

The more we punish and the harder we punish, the more criminals we get

I can recall a study done about ten years ago about a group of young, violent offenders being sentenced to a type of 'boot camp' punishment. The results of this were that the offenders, after having completed the program, were very fit and much more organized criminals than they'd been when they entered the program.

As for capital punishment, I've always believed it's the mark of a "civilized" society and its government not to condemn people to death. While it's the case that barbaric individuals do exist, institutions that deal with them should never stoop to the same barbarism, no matter how 'humane' it might be said to be. If killing is against the law then the State should not be above the law. It's a hypocritical double-standard if it is.

I know there can be a lot of 'what if it happened to you?' arguments in favor of capital punishment, and I can't answer that except to say I'd hope my convictions would stand in the face of such tragedy. What I can say by way of answering is a friend, many years ago, had an infant that died from Sudden Infant Death Syndrome. Her husband came home to find her sitting alone in the kitchen - her baby having died hours earlier in the day. It was a terribly traumatic moment made worse by the fact the police, when they were eventually called, were of the opinion she had murdered her own child simply because she didn't immediately phone them to report the death. This kind of ignorance of the grief a mother suffers could well have resulted in her being charged and possibly convicted of a crime that carries the death penalty in some places. The point I'm trying to make is the State law institutions, as institutions, simply don't have the capability to judge correctly in all situations. This alone is reason enough (for me) to not support capital punishment.

[_ID_]

The more we punish and the harder we punish, the more criminals we get,

side bar on this idea is the surge in Iraq, and how 'successful' *rme* it is.

[TomOfSweden]

If killing is against the law then the State should not be above the law. It's a hypocritical double-standard if it is.

This is one of the most common arguments against capitol punishment I hear and is rather silly.

Assault and kidnapping are also against moral law, but need to be broken by the state in order to put people in jail, try people or even avert conflict. How would wars be fought without it? How would our rights be protected?

In a state, the executive branch of the law must always themselves in some sense be above the law, or governed by another set of more liberal laws than the public. It's a condition. Otherwise we have anarchy.

Laws are based on shared morals, right? So the government will always in a sense be morally hypocritical, and need to be able to break the very moral laws they are set to protect. It's very basic and if you have problems with it then you have problems with having a state at all.

[isabeau6]

ok guys...a man kills his pregnant woman and their unborn child..why on earth? and it's in a state where the death penalty is practised..and the guy is a cop....so looks like the DP is not a deterrent at all..he is maybe or could face the DP....god killing a baby..i cannot think of anything worse..plus the baby was far enough along that she would have lived....

[MrEmann]

Oh (deity of your choice), I'll just inflame a whole bunch of people here. Better just close My eyes and leave....

[TG]

This isn't like some of the debate above.
I use to live in a real bad part of NYC and I'm really fast, which mean I'm something else with a knife. I've risked my life not to kill people. I've had muggers pull knives on me, while I had one in my pocket, and I just smashed him the mouth(REAL Fast-remember) I would have been safer to just slice him cause he had a buddy bring up the rear, and I was taking a chance to leave him standing. I won't do it. Not that I'm afraid. I went up to a guy convicted of manslaughter and smashed him in the face for messing with a young girl I knew. I had a gun at the time, and I left it behind.
But I will support the death penalty for murder of police.
I've done the good samaritian thing several times, and it's just like the guy from 9/11 WTC. It's a thankless thing, and you're always banged up afterwards. Most people put in 40hrs. and come home. Those guys put in 40, and some don't come home. For our sake. So yeah, if an inmate hold back from killing a cop because he's got something to lose,
I'll vote for that. But I'm not going to be one pulling the switch.
I've seen women and sisters crying in the streets and hallways because sons and brothers have been killed on the street, and I won't argue with them. Whatever they decide, I'm keeping my mouth shut. It's their call in my book.
I don't like killing people, and I'm against it. I had a guy hanging out a window one time for trying to slash me in the face with a saw, and when I saw I could kill him, the rage went out of me and I let him go. Life and death is God business, not mine.
My reaction to this topic isn't philosophical. It gut level feeling from what I've seen and done. And it also a gut level feeling when I see cops going to work in the morning, and when I see someone crying over someone they've lost.
And I've shot back to kill when someone was shooting to kill me.
So summary: Self defense, OK. But you'r a better man than George Getz if you can hold back.
Take care of the cops.
Kill to save another's life.
I keep my mouth shut when someone else has a loved one taken away.
TG
PS When I was 18 I nearly drowned and had the whole "out of body", white light thing, and that Light is as real to me as what I remember about last Christmas. The whole thing about afterlife is an issure I don't want to mess around with. I just want to throw my hands up and say, "This is out of my hand. It's more than I can handle." You never hear what that Light feels like. I remember what it felt like, and I'm not going back there a second time and say, "Yeah, I killed somebody."

[TeddyBearGaySlave]

Killing someone for what he has done in the past is not punishing him, it is taking him the possibility to show that his heart, his humanity is not dead yet.
Not killing someone who as a lifelong penalty is a tribute to his live, a possibility for him to become human again.

You are not a mass murder, you do not know what drive those. Are we really able to judge people like them? Of course the compassion for what those people did to lovely people can easily become hate, but I cannot help to feel sorry for those people. Sorry because they somewhat became misguided humans.
Death penalty is just the most arrogant, narcisstic thing human beings ever came up with.

[isabeau6]

Killing someone for what he has done in the past is not punishing him, it is taking him the possibility to show that his heart, his humanity is not dead yet.
Not killing someone who as a lifelong penalty is a tribute to his live, a possibility for him to become human again.

You are not a mass murder, you do not know what drive those. Are we really able to judge people like them? Of course the compassion for what those people did to lovely people can easily become hate, but I cannot help to feel sorry for those people. Sorry because they somewhat became misguided humans.
Death penalty is just the most arrogant, narcisstic thing human beings ever came up with.

exactly my point...however a child killer aka pedophile what have you has already usually admitted that they must be stopped..you allow them to serve a term in prison..thinking they have been rehabilitated..they get out...and they do it again...they admit that themselves...remember Jeffrey Dahmer? he said he would do it again..they have something going on inside their brain that we as "normal" people cannot begin to fathom...so although i'm against the death penalty..how else can we stop these people with no conscious? put them away for life in a single cell..with pictures of the dead victims all over the walls? that's what i've suggested in the past and others rise up and say that's too cruel....yea...how about burying that creep alive? the one who buried Jessica? we aren't killing him...we will give him the same chance as he gave Jessica to live...tie his hands though first...put him in garbage bags wrapped in blankets..

[TG]

The guy I most respected in my life once told me, "Life isn't fair, but some people try to be......" Life isn't fair, a lot of people aren't just or compassionate or fair......But some people try to be that way. The person I mentioned above could be put in a room full of lairs, and he would still be honest. Because that was what was inside him.
The Jeffery Dahmer's of this world deserve all you said, but the judge who stands over him can be a fair, just and compassionate person who never loses his humanity.
And that what differentiates us from them. They lose their humanity, and we do not.
I think of it like the religious idea of Grace. The religious idea is that we don't deserve it because of our "sinfulness", but because of God's compassion he grants it to people because of that he holds important inside of him. I think you show grace to people like Dahmer, you strive to emulate God. Follow his example.
On a practical side, I remember being 18, with a tough ass friend of mine, who was growing up faster than I was; and getting hot and bothered over some pain in the ass big mouth. My friend said to me, "Great. We had 1 animal in the room. Now we got 2 animals. What you need with an animal is a man."
There are people who treat you nice if you are nice to them, and mean if you treat them mean. There are other people who get up in the morning decent human beings, and when they go to bed they are still that decent person.
I respect people like that. They never give me reason not to respect them.
My experience with morality is not like movies. In the movies the good get their just desserts. My experience with morality is that it is a costly business. If you try to maintian a certain moral integrity, it costs you. Morality and decency aren't cheap or a reward: the people who maintain it day to day have earned it.
Psychologically, I understand the healthiest people are "integrated", which means what the think is what they feel which is what they believe, which is what they say, which is what they do. Otherwise known as emotional integrity.
Which boils down to: if you believe in morality and justice and decency, than that is how you act
TG
P.S. I have kind of a philosophy about this. It that this world didn't come with, or now has, decency, humanity, fair, or compassion. Decency, humanity, fair, compassion resides in the hearts of some people, and they bring it to the world. If you want to find decency and compassion in the world, look into the hearts of the people around you, and you will find it there. In some. Not others.

[isabeau6]

The guy I most respected in my life once told me, "Life isn't fair, but some people try to be......" Life isn't fair, a lot of people aren't just or compassionate or fair......But some people try to be that way. The person I mentioned above could be put in a room full of lairs, and he would still be honest. Because that was what was inside him.
The Jeffery Dahmer's of this world deserve all you said, but the judge who stands over him can be a fair, just and compassionate person who never loses his humanity.
And that what differentiates us from them. They lose their humanity, and we do not.
I think of it like the religious idea of Grace. The religious idea is that we don't deserve it because of our "sinfulness", but because of God's compassion he grants it to people because of that he holds important inside of him. I think you show grace to people like Dahmer, you strive to emulate God. Follow his example.
On a practical side, I remember being 18, with a tough ass friend of mine, who was growing up faster than I was; and getting hot and bothered over some pain in the ass big mouth. My friend said to me, "Great. We had 1 animal in the room. Now we got 2 animals. What you need with an animal is a man."
There are people who treat you nice if you are nice to them, and mean if you treat them mean. There are other people who get up in the morning decent human beings, and when they go to bed they are still that decent person.
I respect people like that. They never give me reason not to respect them.
My experience with morality is not like movies. In the movies the good get their just desserts. My experience with morality is that it is a costly business. If you try to maintian a certain moral integrity, it costs you. Morality and decency aren't cheap or a reward: the people who maintain it day to day have earned it.
Psychologically, I understand the healthiest people are "integrated", which means what the think is what they feel which is what they believe, which is what they say, which is what they do. Otherwise known as emotional integrity.
Which boils down to: if you believe in morality and justice and decency, than that is how you act
TG
P.S. I have kind of a philosophy about this. It that this world didn't come with, or now has, decency, humanity, fair, or compassion. Decency, humanity, fair, compassion resides in the hearts of some people, and they bring it to the world. If you want to find decency and compassion in the world, look into the hearts of the people around you, and you will find it there. In some. Not others.

well that makes sense up to a point..however there are those who are raised as you said...believe in morality,justice, decency the whole nine yards and under neath they have this anger...like Ted Bundy...wasn't he decent? wasn't he for justice? he was studying to become a lawyer.. he is someone who was born without a conscience..and all the morality in the world isn't going to help someone such as he....a bad seed if you will...i don't know...the death penalty makes us no better than the killer themselves..but there are those who won't learn...and locking them up for ever well that helps us..and keeps creeps like that off the street...but how do we prevent pedophiles, serial killers and the like to act in the first place? how do we stop them? it's a puzzle to me..

[TG]

My experience has been that if you sit down and are honest and decent with 4 people, one of those 4 will try to take advanage of you. Being decent and nice guaranttees you will fight with those who aren't. Being a good man on a street with drug pushers mean you will end up fighting.
It takes tough people to be decent and honest. They must fight for it. When you find the Ted Bundies you go after them and stop them. Honesty and decency reguire that you be willing to fight for it. It is a costly affair.
FYI I try to spot the lairs, Bundy's, with consistency. They say something inconsistent (Not Fool Proof. God always get it right. Me, not so often.) I was with a rapist as few hours before he tried to rape a girl. Sitting in a car, he said something out of the clear blue which made no sense to me, about the girl who was going to try to rape that night. Ever since, whenever I hear non sequitors, I focus my full attention on that person.
Second, experience helps alot. Guys who are capable of murder do have a different feel about them. Unfortunately, experience is a painful quantity to aquire. Frequently requiring you to look like an ass first.

[isabeau6]

so if i might ask...what did you say or how did you react to that guy who was talking about raping a girl later that night? did you believe him?

[TG]

No, I didn't say he discussed raping her. I said he said a non sequitor. 3 of us were in my car. The girl said she had to stop and pick up something. We stopped at an apartment building. She went upstairs to get whatever it was she got.
He said, "I bet she's getting screwed up there." The girl didn't screw around. He had no reason to think that. I said, "What the hell did you say? Where the hell did you get that?" "Yeah, I bet she's screwing around up there" "We've been here 3 minutes! What are you crazy?" He shruged his shoulders. She was coming down. I said, "You're fucking crazy."
We all belonged to an amateur athletic club where we could hang out 24/7. She was a tremendous athlete, and the bravest women I ever personally met. I dropped them off at the club, and went to.....Hellfire.....for the evening, and returned the following morning to find some young girls telling me he tried to rape her. She fought him off
I had seen this girl take a knife and cut off a cast from a broken foot because she didn't want to sit around doing nothing. She immediately took 2 practice jump and fell down because of the pain. She took a 3rd. and stayed up, in spite of the pain, with a big smile on her face. She was one tough cookie. And absolutely fearless.
She was so badly beaten up I had to carry her down and out to the car because she couldn't walk. But she fought him off.
I waited 2 days in front of the club for him to show up, sitting on the front stoop. When he showed up, I said, "What's this I hear about you and D.DeV. Come on, lets go talk before you go in." There were a few blocks of abandoned buildings a short distance away. We walked over there. When we got on those blocks, they were deserted. I smoke. We were walking side by side. I reached up to puff on the cigarette, and instead elbowed him in the stomach. And the fight was on. And it was the toughest fight of my life.
He had spent 7yrs in jail for manslaughter, stabbed a man to death, and he always had a knife in his back pocket. He use to make extra money by doing torch jobs for.....He was a tough as me and that was one damn fight.

[isabeau6]

damn...ok my mistake..and i'm not sure what a non sequitor means...

[TG]

P.S. I said you learn from experience. I learned from that non sequitor. I stopped at a bar for lunch in Spanish Harlem, right across from Mount Sinai Hospital in NYC. Empty bar, great looking women bartender. And this guy comes in and sits right next to me. And saids, "I ought to shoot everybody in this place." Having learned from Frank T., our guy from above, I didn't give him a typical NY dirty look and ignor him. I gave him my full attention, and I said, "You'll probabily have more fun if you go to the movies."
And we started to talk, and he was a nut case from Mount Sinai out on a week end pass, and he wanted to go to Central Park, 2 blocks away, and shoot everybody he could find. And I talked him out of it, using the reasoning it's tough now, next week will be better and you can start having some fun again in life. or words to that effect.
So if ever you hear someone drop a non sequitor, pay attention to them and don't dust them off.
TG

[TG]

It comes from the Latin for archer. You know archers shoot 1 arrow after another. Conversation is one statement after another. You say one thing, I say another. A non sequitor is something that doesn't follow the -There's a bridge in Brooklyn I went over 1 time - the conversation. Something from out of the blue. Something totally unrelated to what's going on

[isabeau6]

holy shit..you sure run across some interesting individuals...i see now...so it's like my saying i could kill my cat...i don't mean it..of course because i love her to death..but someone somewhere could say that same thing and actually mean it..right? is that how a non sequitor works?

[isabeau6]

It comes from the Latin for archer. You know archers shoot 1 arrow after another. Conversation is one statement after another. You say one thing, I say another. A non sequitor is something that doesn't follow the -There's a bridge in Brooklyn I went over 1 time - the conversation. Something from out of the blue. Something totally unrelated to what's going on

o ok...something out of the blue..yea i get it now...thanks..

[TG]

When you and I talk, we pay attention to what each other saids, the reponses will be related to the previous statement.
Nice Day. Why yes, it's beautiful today. When someone said a non sequitor, they aren't thinking about you or what you said. They're off in their own little dream world, and their statement reflects what is going on in that dream world. When we stopped for that girl to go to the apartment, I was wondering how long she would be, I think I was double parked and thinking about that--all things related to what was actually happening. Frank T's comment came from ideas he was having in his head which had nothing to do with what was actually happening at the moment or with her. We had been there less than 3 minutes - she was going to a 2nd or 3rd floor apartment.
His idea she was screwing somebody couldn't have realistically occured in that time frame. It didn't have to do with what was going on. It came from his imagination.
When he said it, I related it to what I knew about the girl, she didn't screw around. His idea has nothing to do with what the girl was actually like. His comment came totally from his imagination and had nothing to do with the reality of the situation. He was in La La land.

[TG]

PS As far as meeting interesting people. Your nickname is somebodies submissive, and you'r talking in BDSM board---and you're telling me I met interesting people!