just an idea...

[Hawke]

Okay, because we're talking about underage stuff in here anyway, and I don't want to start a new thread, I'm curious (AND READ ALL OF THIS POST, not just my question, because the disclaimer is pretty important). If you have, say, a seventeen-year-old girl tied up and stuff on a website, but she is in no way nude, is it legal? Like, say a bikini. She's tied up and stuff in a bikini, and there's no other sexually implicit aspects of the pictures.

Disclaimer: I'm not trying to start another debate. I'm asking because I'm curious. I don't plan on starting a website oriented around the aforementioned, nor do I know anyone planning on starting a website of that nature. Like I said before, I'm ONLY asking because I am curious. And by the way, I'm not trying to come across like a jerk with this little disclaimer--I just don't want someone to misinterpret me, so I figured I'd explain myself before I got yelled at.

[ProjectEuropa]

Okay, because we're talking about underage stuff in here anyway, and I don't want to start a new thread, I'm curious (AND READ ALL OF THIS POST, not just my question, because the disclaimer is pretty important). If you have, say, a seventeen-year-old girl tied up and stuff on a website, but she is in no way nude, is it legal?

This is going to depend on which country you are in. A 17 year old is a minor in some countries and not in others. I think in the US (correct me if I'm wrong) a 17 year old would be a minor but in much of Europe it would not be illegal. Much of Europe has a sexual consent age of 16. Though this is a general rule because for certain sexual acts that age can vary. I know in Holland and Britain sex under the age of 16 is not criminalised if the age between both parties is within a couple of years such as a 16 year old boy and a 14 year old girl, though I think in both countries there is judicial discretion. But I think your scenario would be legal.

[Alex Bragi]

Hawke,

It's very difficult really to determine at what age someone is capable of deciding how sexual, or otherwise, they want to be at the present. Some individuals mature physically and/or mentally so much earlier than others.

I think what you're trying to ask here is - is it kiddy porn? Well, if she's 'tied up and stuff' in such a way to be considered titillating, then I'd say it is, if she's not, then I'd say it isn’t. Whether, or not, she’s been depicted in a sexual manner of course would always be a grey area of censorship.

By the way, I’m totally for censorship involving anything to do with prepubescents. I don’t like it at all – not one little bit. I can’t stand the idea of authors, film makers, or anyone else pandering to the needs of these people. It makes sick even to think about it. If I had my way every single one of them would have their balls hacked off with a rusty tin can so they could never breed.

But I digress. It’s all a bit hard really isn’t it? I mean what’s sexual to one person may not be to another. A friend of mine confessed to me once that he finds nothing more sexually exciting than a woman wearing brogues. No, spiky heeled stilettos for him, no, big heavy black or brown brogues. Go figure. So, we can really only determine these things in very general terms.

[GaryWilcox]

By the way, I’m totally for censorship involving anything to do with prepubescents. I don’t like it at all – not one little bit. I can’t stand the idea of authors, film makers, or anyone else pandering to the needs of these people. It makes sick even to think about it. If I had my way every single one of them would have their balls hacked off with a rusty tin can so they could never breed.

Have you ever seen Léon aka The Professional? Basically, Writer/Director Luc Besson admits he has a thing for very, very young girls, twelve or thirteen. In real life, he had a girlfriend at the time who was maybe fifteen when it was shot... Maiwenn... and Léon is on many levels a love letter to her. Interestingly enough, Maiwenn appears in the behind the scenes documentary about how the film was made (she is the prostitute in the opening 5 minutes) in the recent DVD rerelease.

But it isn't illicit... and young Natalie Portman (this was her first film) doesn't appear nude. The most scandalous moments are, Matilda appears dressed up as Madonna, puts on a dress for Léon's pleasure, and gets drunk in a restaurant and demands that Léon kiss her.

It's also one of my favorite love stories. While I love it, I'm not sexually attracted to young girls, and I don't condone Luc Besson's behavior... but I think he makes an excellent case for the relationship between Matilda and Léon (if not Maiwenn and Luc). They have an affair of the heart.

For this reason, I don't want the idea of child porn banned... I just want actual child porn banned.
:Porn: Including 'soft' child porn, like "(Baby) One More Time". :slave4u:

[Jadetiger]

Hawke,
By the way, I’m totally for censorship involving anything to do with prepubescents. I don’t like it at all – not one little bit. I can’t stand the idea of authors, film makers, or anyone else pandering to the needs of these people. It makes sick even to think about it. If I had my way every single one of them would have their balls hacked off with a rusty tin can so they could never breed.

I whole hearty agree. :woman:

So now for a reality check. Having children depleted as sex objects, to be used and abused is not my cup of tea. If it is fiction I can deal with it. I may not like it but I can deal. Of course I would not read a story like that anyway. So as long as you are not breaking laws or rules where you post then write what is in your head.

[ProjectEuropa]

Alex, Gary, Jade. To be fair to Hawke, he asked about a seventeen year old woman. While a seventeen year old woman seems like a minor to me who is 50, in Britain a seventeen year old woman can get married, have sex and die for her country, though for some reason she is not old enough to vote. I think I am right is saying in just about all European countries a 17 year old can have sex quite freely if she desires so I can't imagine Hawke's scenario is illegal, at least in Europe.

Different countries have different laws about the internet but I think this can only be for downloaded material and not material viewed online. While the US might view 17 year olds as minors, I don't see what the US can do about what is legal in other countries and vice versa. So I would imagine if Hawke uploaded material from a country where it is legal for a seventeen year old to freely participate in such scenario, he would be acting legally.

[Hawke]

Yes, I'm in the United States. And no, I don't mean kiddie porn, per se; except through the eyes of the law. I have no interest in little girls, I'm simply curious about the laws regarding seventeen year olds.

And keep in mind, I'm not referring to explicit sexual acts in this scenario. I was thinking more along the lines of "girl tied up, scantilly clad but not revealing anything considered sexual, in a manner which would arose those who found such material arousing". You see, I'm asking because it's debatable. On the one hand, it could be considered illegal, because she's under the age of 18, and in a situation which is generally considered to be Mature, by law. On the other hand, the pictures featuring her depict no sexual acts, be it willing or otherwise, nor do they depict any part of her body that is considered sexual. Thus, in this second argument, you could bring up the point that the pictures aren't mature in nature at all. Once I started thinking about these, and each of the arguments one could use to press their point, I began to wonder what the actual law was.

It's amazing what you'll think of when it's four in the morning and you can't get to sleep.

[prey4me]

This thread has been going on for quite a while, and it's been several months since somebody decided to post. All the same, as a newcomer, I would like to weigh in.

What is intriguing, and complicating, is that with the internet we are now a world community: the ideas and norms of one country are juxtaposed to the tastes and standards of others in different regions and cultures. So we have the Dutch euthenizing their elderly, but that is anathema in Alabama. And if spanking a child is discipline in Montana, it's erotic in England, and a crime in Sweeden. Complicated, huh?

So it's no surprise that sex/kindky sex/violent sex/teenage sex is going to be complicated! And Kallie is right: one person's "personal fetish" is another person's "dangerous, illegal perversion," and vice-versa!

It comes down to: the webmaster makes the rules and enforces the rules. It's his butt that will be hung out to dry, depending on where he is located.

Now, some thoughts for Sirthumper. I kind of like your scenario, because nc sex with early-to-mid teens is a fantasy many of us share. For starters, it's awfully trite to "have them case her place." I'd look for a fresher way to move this plot. Face it: middle-aged guys hanging around some girl's home, however surepticiously, are going to get noticed by somebody, who will call the cops for an I.D. check, at the very least.

Anyway, here's some ideas for making your story--if you write it yourself--more acceptable. Consider posting it on other sites. asstr.org and mrdoubles.com come to mind. "mrdoubles" has LOTS of pre-teen and young-teen stories, most of them involving incest, but lots of them don't. And quite a few are non-consensual.

Another is to put the girl a bit older to conform to bdsmlibrary's standards, but make her very innocent and virginal. Perhaps she was brought up in a boarding convent school. Or very protected by zealously religious parents. How about making her an athlete, a ballet student, or something, who has never had a social life to speak of, busy as she's been?

Two other ideas to make your idea work for a 17-18 year old innocent and pure victim: she was carefully protected by a guardian who wanted to "save her for himself" upon attaining her "maturity," or, is mildly retarded: an 18-year-old with the mind of a 12-year-old.*

So, there's an idea for you to work with!

*I must point out that in the eyes of most American states' law, sex with a mentally disabled person is also considered "statutory rape."