Pain and its place in BDSM

[Ruby]

That's what we wanted to express.

Thanks. I liked your warning about those types of dom/mes. Dangerous? Very. Unreliable? Perhaps a much more polite word than I would use.

[fwss]

I'm a little puzzled by your last comment, Ruby. Many - surely most - dominants are sadists, right? They get off on inflicting pain and/or other suffering. Masochists get off on taking it. Slaves get off on fulfilling their owner's needs.

I therefore cannot see any way in which a dominant inflicting pain 'for the hell of it' should be described as 'dangerous', as long as they are doing it to a consenting partner.

[Bald_J_and_F]

I'm a little puzzled by your last comment, Ruby. Many - surely most - dominants are sadists, right? They get off on inflicting pain and/or other suffering. Masochists get off on taking it. Slaves get off on fulfilling their owner's needs.

I therefore cannot see any way in which a dominant inflicting pain 'for the hell of it' should be described as 'dangerous', as long as they are doing it to a consenting partner.

A dominant person should have a sense of responsibility. Afflicting pain just for the heck of it is NOT responsible at all. We described the scenarios in which we think the affliction of pain makes sense to us, and we think that should leave room enough for the affliction of pain. It is the context that is important. If we are given a difficult task and fail to do it or misbehave in any way (and there are lots of possibilities for that), then we certainly deserve our punishment. But that's a big difference to just arbitrarily dealing out pain. Arbitrarily dealing out pain is like moving a knight in a game of chess like a rook - against the rules.

[Ruby]

I'm a little puzzled by your last comment, Ruby. Many - surely most - dominants are sadists, right? They get off on inflicting pain and/or other suffering. Masochists get off on taking it. Slaves get off on fulfilling their owner's needs.

I therefore cannot see any way in which a dominant inflicting pain 'for the hell of it' should be described as 'dangerous', as long as they are doing it to a consenting partner.

Hi fwss,

Whether or not most dominats are sadists is probably a topic for another thread. If you look beyond the highly publicized S&M aspects of a D/S relationship, you will find there is an art to sensual domming and serving.

I think Jean and Friede answered your question.

Even consenting partners have needs, desires, wants and limits. Just because a sub is a masochist, doesn't mean they want pain all the time or that they don't want it within a particular set of guidelines.

I have friends who have survived some brutal relationships, where the dom would beat them, just because he could. Not for their mutual pleasure, but for the dom's pleasure. When safe words are not recognized, boundaries are not respected, when the rules are constantly changing and the sub is kept off balance or living in fear, then we move into the realm of selfishness and abuse.

If its consensual pain/pleasure, that's a different animal altogether.

What is the place of pain in a BDSM relationship?

a. it doesn't belong at all
b. it belongs under certain guidelines
c. it belongs if both people are having their needs met and are satisfied with the results/outcome
d. all of the above.

I'll go with d and add, it always depends on the individual relationship. BDSM is a huge umbrella, there is no right or wrong fetish, yet there is safe, sane and consensual play. Or if you're into risk aware consensual kink and that works for your relationship, that's okay, too. However, consensual is the key word.

Hope this helps explain my earlier comment,

Ruby

[master_kyrk1]

I too am concerned by what i feel are judments ebing cast on those who enjoy pai, both dom and sub.

Different people feel differently about pain. For example I hate giving pain as punishment it hurts if nto kills part of my soul to do so. For those of youwith kids or heard the line as a kid this will hurt me more than it does you. I find that is true. In aprt I am wondering if i set them up for failure with unrealistic expectations, or imporper instructions. Still does not change the fac that punishment needs to be carried out. Secondly dannette hates being punished she feels she has dissapointed me and the pain she recieves is not pleasureable or enjoyable in any way. (also if your enjoying the punishment is it really punishment but that is another thread)

We incoproate pain in our play bu in such a way so that the ultoiamte goal is pleasure. When i flog or wax or do other things to dannette I am not doing it with the intnetion to amke her cry or casue ehr severe discomfort. My goal is to walk the line between pleasure and pain, skirting it using the plain to drive her to pleasure. Does that work for everyone no it works for us. Part of the responsibility of being a dominant is knowing your partner. Taking the time to learn them. I like to phrase it this way. In a vanilla relationship you get to konw your partner. In a BDSM relationship you have to learn to crawl inside their head think as they think, and use that to psuh them to the enxt level. You have to be able to read them and to know when they can ahndle what. That is waht limits, negotiations,safewords are all for. I ahve gotten to a point with dannette where u can general tell if there is a problem (other than medical such as a cramp) before it happens and can either A stop the scene or B adapt in in such a way as we btoh get our pleasure.

To look at it another way perhaps more crass. If i had an expensive car I am not going to abuse it jsut becasue i am annoyed with it. I am going to pamper it and take care of it so that it works to the best of its abilites. To mne a slave or submissive is the same, you invest much time effort and money into the proper trianing of a slave or submisiive. So why wouuld you go and do stupid things that will damage the bond and ruin the proerty and its value for alck of a better term.

The term saadist has been thrown around a bit in the alst few posts. It is important to recall that the definition of a sadist is a person who enjoys infoicting pain on an unwilling vicitm.

Do I enjoy inflciting pain Yes I do and am proud to admit it. Do I enjoy inflicitng pain on a non-willing or non-consenual; partner no. To me part of the pleasure ius taking a persoin bringin them to their limits and heling them to push past them in a way that ultiamtely gives them pleasure. My greatest joy in a session is to see dannette come from just being flogged, or to get so relaxed that she can fall asleep. Yes she has done that.

What it comes down to as I keep saying is what works for you between consenting partners. If you do not agree with someone that is find but be careful in placing judgments for you yourself may be being judgedas well and theperson whom you ahve been judging may be the only one willing to defend you. Dont judge a book by its cover. Take time to learns its content and the meaning of that content before you make a decision you just may be surprised by what you find. I know I have been

Gets down off my soapbox and apologizes if I have offended anyone.

[Ranai]

Hi master_kyrk1, thank you for sharing your experiences and thoughts. Your reflections on pain play for pleasure vs. pain as punishment, and how each emotionally affects you as a dominant in a different manner, are insightful.

It is important to recall that the definition of a sadist is a person who enjoys infoicting pain on an unwilling vicitm.

I would like to offer an alternative, less narrow definition of ‘sadist’.

A sadist is a person who enjoys inflicting pain.
This is a sexual disposition.

It can be done to an unwilling victim, or consensually and carefully to someone who enjoys it. (Or, carefully and consensually, to someone who consents to take a certain degree of pain as a punishment in the context of a D/s relationship.)
This is an ethical choice.

There are sadists who commit abuse, sadists who practise consensual BDSM, and sadists who don’t put their disposition into practice except in their fantasy life.

So in my opinion it’s perfectly possible for someone who practises BDSM consensually, and skilfully and lovingly flogs their masochistic partner to ecstasy, to say ‘I enjoy giving pain. I am a sadist.’
~~~

On the question about pain and its place, there are lots of options within the boundaries of SSC. Just a few examples:

It's perfectly possible to say: 'I enjoy taking pain within certain limits and boundaries as part of our SM play. I am a masochist.'

Or: 'I am a masochist, and what especially gets me off is when my dominant and I engage in play that involves pain dished out for no apparent reason (except of course because we both get off on it).' This can still be perfectly consensual and within limits.

'Humiliation yes, pain no.' Or: 'Pain yes, humilation no.' Or: 'Both, please.' Or: 'Neither. I just love it when he/she takes control and dominates me.'

'I accept punishments within certain limits as part of our D/s relationship, even though I don't enjoy them.'

'I am masochistic, but not a full time submissive. I just want some pain play for fun now and then. Anybody who thinks they are in a position to 'punish' me, take a hike!'

etc.
~~~

Bald_J_and_F, determining and listing the circumstances under which pain is acceptable and unacceptable for you personally, shows you as responsible and competent partners. Other people's limits and conditions may differ from yours; they are still limits and conditions.

~~~
Giving and taking pain, under whatever circumstances, is certainly not a condicio sine qua non, something that needs to be present to give D/s flavour to a relationship. There are lots of lovely possibilities of D/s interaction without any pain involved at all. As the other contributors to this thread have mentioned, it is for the individuals involved to decide whether pain has a place in their relationship or not. And if so, to what degree and under which circumstances.

[fwss]

A very well-put response ranai.

There is room for all the approaches to dishing out pain, but I feel that those who have judged doms who simply enjoy inflicting pain as 'not reliable', 'selfish' and 'dangerous' are denying that room.

Personally, I am not a big 'pain slut', but I take it willingly from my Mistress for whatever reason She likes, even if it is just because She feels like seeing my ass reddened. I take great pleasure from satisfying Her desires.

I can completely understand relationships where pain (or any other torment) is only for use for certain reasons... but please don't be so judgemental of relationships where it is for use for OTHER reasons.

[Ruby]

The point of this thread was not to bash or judge anyone for their personal preferences or kinks. It was to discuss the role of pain in BDSM.

If the "pain" in the relationship works for you and your partner, whether it be for pain, pleasure, punishment or amusement, then by all means keep doing what works for you.

To label someone's actions as selfish or unsafe, does not label that person. It describes how the posters feel about those actions within the topics described. Everyone is welcome to their own opinion.

I repeat and stand by my earlier comments:

I have friends who have survived some brutal relationships, where the dom would beat them, just because he could. Not for their mutual pleasure, but for the dom's pleasure.

Please note: Some of them have ended up in the hospital or under a doctor's care, because of this rather brutal treatment. Therefore, in my opinion:

When safe words are not recognized, boundaries are not respected, when the rules are constantly changing and the sub is kept off balance or living in fear, then we move into the realm of selfishness and abuse.

fwss,

If I appeared to be judgemental of any SS&C or RISK relationship, please forgive me. That was not my intention. Thank you for voicing this concern. It is valid.

master_kyrk1,

Thank you so much for providing that insightful post.

Ranai,

Well said.

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