gorean information needed

[His_pita]

This was a very interesting read. I just met someone on another board that calls himself a Gorean and we had a couple of exchanges about how his thoughts were much better then the "traditional" D/s relationship. I checked out his links and it all seemed like a bunch of fantasy to me. Which is totally fine for anyone who is into it. I just don't like when someone thinks their way is better. But, I don't like labels being attached to my D/s relationship at all by outsiders. I feel it is up to us to decide what we want and how we want it.

I actually just wanted to say to BDSM_Tourguide that you have the most articulate post. I always enjoy reading anything you have to say because it's so well written. Thanks

[BDSM_Tourguide]

I actually just wanted to say to BDSM_Tourguide that you have the most articulate post. I always enjoy reading anything you have to say because it's so well written. Thanks

Thank you. And you are certainly welcome.

[tabuk]

Yep tourguide is very articulate and I will hopefully ... one day ... be able to do half as good as she does.

I left gor for exactly the reasons you have stated Tourguide. The ego [as i mentioned in my 1st post] and the lack of respect. The lack of looking outside the box. The lack of being able to discuss the flaws in the philosophy. The fact that Norman contradicts himself many many times through out the series and the fact that most "Goreans" argue continuously about these.

And yes, I did say I was in a BDSM relationship, not just a DS one. There are several aspect of fetish and SM in our play that heighten our experiences and add to our fun, and we don't feel we have to leave them out because some book tells us we do. We have the freedom of will to do what we please without worrying that we're being "true" to the fantasy. So, why would someone choose to shackle themselves in such a way?

People choose to shackle themselves in such a way because they can and want to. Didn't you say in your 1st post here that people have choices? ...... It is their thing, their fetish. They are true to the books cos that is what they want. I dont knock other roleplaying scenes such as the sub who dresses in a diaper or the sub that likes to dress as a japanese school girl. I dont profess to understand the SM. That doesn't mean its any less important. I totally agree that when they say "the Gorean way is superior", that they are being egotistical. Its as good as any other. Not better than.

You dont have to leave out what makes this fun and exciting for you. In the same light why should someone put it in when it doesn't make it fun for them. We are not all into S/M. Yes knock the ego of those who cant let the fantasy go, but dont knock the fantasy or the want of that fantasy as an erotic roleplay. Some people do want it. You dont like to mix the D&D with your scene and that is cool. But some people do.

As I stated in my original post, I respect the desire for fantasy. I won't call it a need, because I truly fell people can live without many of them. Fantasies are great, though. I have a few that are my favorites. However, I do know where the fantasy ends and the reality begins. In my experience, that's where a lot of Goreans seem to fall short. As I mentioned before, I have known many Goreans online and off (the online ones are the worst, BTW) and many of them seem to share the same attitude, ego and experience. Most Goreans I have seen will enter a normal BDSM chat or forum and immediately insist their wishes be respected, people refer to them in Gorean terms, and they will actually try to assimilate that chat or forum into the Gorean "way." I think we even had a Gorean guy here on these forums previously that insisted we open a Gorean-only section of the forums and chat.

That is what i hated about Gor chat rooms and reminds me why i left it. I like some aspects and parts of the philosophy. I do know however that it is roleplay and wish that most of them did to.

The Gorean philosophy of not being ashamed of being female and that a woman can show her sexuality was what drew me to it. A rape makes you think you are the worst and dirtiest whore alive. My selfworth had been thrown out the window and ground to dust which blew away in the wind. I was ashamed of being a woman. I am not anymore because of this lifestyle. It has its place in my heart and i know some of it is just roleplay. However some parts can be brought into the reality. ... just because you dont agree with it, doesn't mean there is no point to it. For some it does have a point.

Some but not all Goreans do tend to have this ego that is bigger than the fantasy and believe it is the one and only true way to follow. If you can look past that, its quite interesting.

[BDSM_Tourguide]

My selfworth had been thrown out the window and ground to dust which blew away in the wind. I was ashamed of being a woman. I am not anymore because of this lifestyle.

Your posts are worded very well and the ideas are easily understandable. Many people would say that makes them eloquent in their own right.

The only issue I can take with the posts you have made if the statement you made above. I know I'm using "you" a lot, and that makes people defensive, but forgive me and please try to read on to the end with an open mind.

BDSM, in whole or in part, is not a replacement for therapy. Being raped and having your self-esteem ground into the dirt cannot be alleviated by the administration of bondage or submission. In fact, in many cases those thing will only serve to make the hurt worse. What can fix your self-esteem is talk. Communication. So, what you have told me is that, yes you found a relationship that fits you, but the more important thing to you is the relationship you formed with your master. You have obviously found someone in which you can trust and with whom you can communicate openly and honestly, and I would venture to guess that is what helped you. Not the BDSM, not the Gor, not the submission.

While I will admit that BDSM can be a very positive thing and BDSM can help people in a wide variety of ways, I will also be the first to admit that many people do not understand how to use it as a positive thing or how to administer it in a way that might be helpful. I have said this before, but I will repeat it here for your benefit solely. To the damaged mind, BDSM can be very attractive. The discipline, the rules, the structure of it all can instill one with a sense of worth, a sense of routine, and a sense of being needed. However, if carried into different avenues, many forms of BDSM play and activities can just as easily fracture the fragile mind farther than it already has been fractured previously.

Humiliation, emotional uncertainty, and even the discipline can tear one down even further, but the oddity is that, to the submissive, they feel like they are being built up. They feel safe with the disciplines in place and with the structure, but what they might not see is that they are replacing their pain with dependence. And this is not a specific example to you. This is a generalization in the broadest sense. A person woth low or damaged self-esteem may feel worthless and weak, and the disciplines of BDSM may make them begin to feel better and renewed and whole again. In some cases, this may be true. In some cases, it's not.

It's very much like in the military. The first thing they do is to strip you down to your barest, most vulnerable form, and then they introduce all their rules and discipline to show you what you can be and to mold you into the image they desire of you. The same can apply to a person who has been damaged by trauma. They have ben stripped down, and now they are desperately seeking a reason for it all and something to "heal" their wounds. Introduce discipline, especially rigorous discipline like you might find in a Gorean relationship, and you now have an ideal on which to be built. With proper communication and trust, that can be very good, but just used as a tool for sex, control or manipulation it can be very, very bad.

A person who is damaged needs to regain their control and their independence, not learn new, stricter ways to lose more of it. The best way to regain the feeling of control and independence is to share with people that can understand the situation, offer advice, and that can show the person that what has happened to them has not made them any less of a person. The event that damaged them has merely reshaped them in a way that has altered a belief system of theirs.

This is where BDSM may fail the person. Certainly, as mentioned before, the structure may feel nice, but is it demonstrating to the damaged individual that she is a healthy, normal person or is it just filling a hole that has been missing? Patching a hole without repairing it will just leave a hole that will re-open at some point in the future. It is only by making the hole whole again by talk, trust, and reliance, but not dependence, that a person can truly begin to be healed and renewed. And that is what I feel you found in your relationship. It could have just as easily been vanilla, regular BDSM or Gor; it was the person that mattered to you, not the choice of lifestyle.

Or I could be completely wrong. All I can tell you is what I have experienced. All I can hope is that by sharing this I have offered you some advice or something to think about that you might not have thought about previously.

And I know all of this post has been completely off-topic, but I did feel the point needed ot be made. Sorry to the people that are reading this in the hopes of finding Gorean information and instead finding "Dear Abby." LOL

[daddiebear50]

I have to add my 2 cents worth, as I have read several of the Norman books.

A Gor is a fantasy world, plain and simple. What it portrays is abuse, plain and simple. Respect, growth, and love, rarely exist in the books. I don't know if the Gorean lifestyle track closely with the book, but I suspect it does to closely.

Love is a need, for humans. I see it nowhere in the Gorean philosophy.
The only time love was expressed in the Norman books I read, The slave was set free as a freewoman. The thread of that situation was the saddest of the entire series. Because, the fantasy didn't allow for masters to love, which meant she had to leave her beloved master forever. And her life as a freewoman was maybe more horrific than her slavery, because....

AS A FREEWOMAN, SHE DIDN'T GET ANY ANYMORE. ANY LOVE, ANY COMPANMANSHIP, OR ANY SEX EITHER. SHE WAS AN OUTCAST.

dumb.

That's my opinion, and as others say, add salt to taste.

[redEva]

First of all, welcome daddiebear50, nice to have you join us (btw very nice response in the But plug thread ).

As for Gor … you are absolutely correct – it is fantasy world (for better or for worse), but, it seems to me you missed some of the books. While there is obviously the heavy accent on the Master/slave relationship, the dynamics of the power and surrender and love within, the free person, be it man or woman, has a chance and a choice, if the right partner comes along they can form free companionship, which in my understanding equals the marriage in our, less exotic society

I agree that love is a need, but unlike you, I have found many, many different love examples and levels of involvement between characters in Gor books.

The part that captured my attention, was/is the accent on men being Man and women being feminine. Our society has done so much to “empower” women that females lost the femininity. On Gor, the primary reason for woman’s existence is to be pleasing to men. In return she is taken care for, provided for and loved (OK – in most instances, by someone lol). So… there you go – whole lota luvin going on

[Ranai]

Looking for a quick overview of the locality and locals?

‘The planet Gor lies in the same orbit around the sun as Earth. It is always 180 degrees behind and thus always directly behind the sun, rendering it undetectable from Earth. [...] Gorean civilization is primitive. The priest kings enforce a ban on modern weaponry. Persons who violate this ban are prone to suffer the mysterious 'flame death', a sort of spontaneous combustion. [...] Gorean males are 'real men' who feel that the proper place for a woman is on her knees. [...]
The Kurii are a race of space traveling savage beasts. They have come to our solar system from parts unknown and live in their steel ships out beyond the orbit of Jupiter. [...] To raise funds (apparently their own currency is not accepted on Gor), they abduct women from Earth to sell in the slave markets of Gor. [...] The average female abductee is at first horrified to discover she has been enslaved, but eventually warms to the idea and embraces her bondage in the realization that it has always been her secret desire to be enslaved and forced to serve men.’

Okay, so I’m not likely to get tickled and turned on by that particular fantasy planet due to my dominant orientation. Nonetheless I’m grateful to the talented author Harold for a pretty entertaining glimpse of Gor. I can’t comment on the original books, not having read any, where there may be those instances of companionship and love between free people redEva mentions.
The institution of nonconsensual slavery and its clichés being the big attraction of the planet Gor, this is what Harold wrote about. What daddiebear50 – welcome to the forums! – says applies to Harold’s story: No respect, no love. Abusive, dumb. But – this author did add a grain of salt.

‘All good plans were simple, and by that standard, this was a pretty good plan. I was going to stow away. All I had to do was find a girl they were going to snatch and sneak aboard their ship while they were engaged in her acquisition. There were several things I knew from reading the books. They often took women from New York. These women were usually employed in menial positions, unattached, extremely beautiful (but not without room for improvement through proper diet and exercise), and always snotty. They loved snotty women. Gorean men being what they were, there was probably a shortage of snotty women on Gor, making it necessary to import them. Snotty women drove me nuts. That's why I wanted to go to Gor...’

The story has two parts, Hitchhikers of Gor and Support Groups of Gor. Have fun!