Humiliation

[pejanon]

PS: The Sadean concepts of "virtue" and "fall from grace" very much are at play in blackmail fantasies. In one of his books (120 Days, I think) he makes the statement (paraphrased) "it's far more enjoyable to dominate one's peers than an inferior person." He also believed there was more fun to be had "disgracing" the virtuous whose falls from grace would always be much deeper, longer and harder than those who might not have had many morals to begin with. I like these types of themes in preference to "the haughty bitch" who is blackmailed because the haughty ones tend not to be so "innocent" and thus there can be a certain sense of righteousness in seeing them punished and humiliated.

Ah yes, the harder they fall …
De Sade himself, when he was sentenced to death for the first time (allegedly) cried out: "At last, I am completely soiled!" Who could fall harder then he - in his eyes, of course? (He was not guilty of anything except 'crime of speech'.)
Somewhere in Juliette one of his dom charaters gives Marshall's medal (whatever it was) he has just won (bought, actually) to his accomplice-sub to wipe her behind - then proceeds to humiliate her. Who is being humilated - The King? Whole social order De Sade despised, while using every every advantage it gave him? The master (who is utter coward)?

Yes, you are completely right about fear factor and 'stealing just a little bit of breath' but too many authors want to go really far. If they take minute steps - when are they to get there?In ten years?
And I still think that in blackmail/humilation sub-genre staring point is not that imortant - it's the process itself.

Subtle or gross. That's the question.

Pejanon

[slave802120]

Yes, you are completely right about fear factor and 'stealing just a little bit of breath' but too many authors want to go really far. If they take minute steps - when are they to get there?In ten years?

With me, it depends a lot on the intended audience. If I'm writing for one that wants a stroke story, then I can cut all the detail. But if I'm writing to please myself, I prefer long and slow. I used to be sensitive to criticism for this, but these days I'll console myself with the thought I can't be held responsible for the short attention spans of some readers. That's just me, of course -- and the comment isn't directed at anybody here, of course

kinkabella

[prey4me]

I don't see why so many of you are associating --even equating--blackmail and humiliation. Certainly, they can be combined in many plots and scenaria, but they are not equivalent, and one does not necessarily involve the other.

Blackmail is a form of power. If you have compromising knowledge of somebody you can blackmail her. She obeys or faces painful consequences, which could be the payment of money, performance of a service (divulging her company's secret catsup recipe), something humiliating, or just a plain old fuck. If you put a gun to her head of kidnaped her mother, you would have power to make her do the same things!

Humiliation is the experience of doing something (or being seen as) shameful, immodest, or degrading. You can certainly blackmail a character into, oh, riding down Main Street naked on a white horse. Or make her do it because you have her kid hanging by his thumbs from a dungeon rafter, or there's a sniper's bullet aimed at her head....you get the idea.

For whatever reason, and by whatever form of power, force, or coercion, humiliation occurs when a character experiences something that is shameful or degrading.

The two are not equivalent, nor does one have to include, or lead to, the other.

I kind of dig characters who are forced to do something that violates their moral code, and is degrading by violating their sense of modesty. That's part of my thing for the abuse and rape of younger girls and virtuous young women in formal gowns: all that delicate material, so woefully inadequate to keep their prissy little privates covered. One scenario I'm kind of partial to is that of a teenage girl in a bouffant party dress forced to lift it up in front of her family and guests. Her panties are ripped off and she is made to walk around her birthday party and have everybody look at her, maybe kiss her cunt, or something. Then the assailant crudely gropes her, while everybody is (at gunpoint, perhaps?) powerless to protect her. Then she's given the choice to be forcibly raped in front of everybody, or to have the privilege of "privacy" in her bedroom if she'll submit willingly.

Humiliation, abuse, coercion, violation...but no blackmail.

[Satan_Klaus]

[QUOTE=prey4me]I don't see why so many of you are associating --even equating--blackmail and humiliation. Certainly, they can be combined in many plots and scenaria, but they are not equivalent, and one does not necessarily involve the other.


I don't think we are equating the two. The discussion just driftet from humiliation to blackmail because in the context of erotic fiction blackmail always leads to humiliation. Have you EVER read a blackmail story without humiliation? I haven't (and it's not for lack of reading ).

Humiliation can well stand on it's own, but blackmail seems to be tied to humiliation, at least in the dirty minds of our authors.

Satan_Klaus

[pejanon]

I don't think we are equating the two. The discussion just driftet from humiliation to blackmail because in the context of erotic fiction blackmail always leads to humiliation. Have you EVER read a blackmail story without humiliation? I haven't (and it's not for lack of reading ).

Humiliation can well stand on it's own, but blackmail seems to be tied to humiliation, at least in the dirty minds of our authors.

Satan_Klaus

Right. Being in the power of someone who has compromising knowlege ... is by defintion humilating. While I cuold perhaps imagine a story (or fantasy) involving blackmail but not humilation I realy beleive it is not posible in practice. The two just go together and blackmail stories are often writen with express purpose to explore humilation.
(see kinkabella above for some sublte insights)

Humilation on the other hand can be subdived into groups Of course it highly individual but, at least in fiction, it will always involve other people. First one then more and more to greater joy of drooling readers. And of course you ALWAYS need contrast. What wolud be the point of parading her naked in nudist colony? (If there was something else to see - that would be another thing entirely) But if she was to wear drab (or drag ) clothes in the said colony ...

[pejanon]

With me, it depends a lot on the intended audience. If I'm writing for one that wants a stroke story, then I can cut all the detail.

Ah, but what exactly defines a stroke story? Isn't detail all that matters, especially in humilation story AND especially stroke story.

Without details: She waited. He came in, fucked her (or whatever), came, went out and lit a cigar.
Great stroke story, isn't it?

Now as to what details ...

[fantazmaster]

I am going to strongly agree with your statement about the necessity of a strong background in order for a blackmail/humiliation story to work.One such story that I find illustrates this princople quite well is"Training Rebecca" by SimplySizzling which of course one may find here in the library.The author here has done an excellent job of building a plausible,realistic background against which Rebecca,the blackmailer's target is humiliated in a variety of situations,all of which are situations that the victim would not normally find herself in and is required to do things on the blackmailer's orders that are well beyond the moral scope of her upper middle class lifestyle.

I thoroughly enjoy writing and reading blackmail stories and Satan Klaus is correct about the necessity of a solid background to stories for them to work. For me, blackmail is all about choices and the humiliation comes from choosing to surrender to the blackmail demands. Often there is an underlying latent desire being brought to the surface (in my fantasies, I mean). But it's a bit like a line I like from an Emily Dickinson poem - "The truth must dazzle gradually".

kinkabella

[Little Pet]

Hello. I am new to this forum, but wanted to share my view on humiliation. I agree with most that blackmail is not something I find arousing. The victim is not a willing participant.

Humiliation is a whole other arena. My arousal cames from doing something, as one person said, I find morally offensive, or something I wouldn't do willingling on my own. I have served many a Master and Mistress who understand the nature of humiliating me.

Some examples of positions I've been put into: Forced to serve as a fuck toy at a stag party for the Master. Each man wrote on my body after using me degrading comments with a sharpie marker. Although most of the physical punishment was limited to slapping my ass and tits, along with pulling my nipples, I was forced to miss two days of work because of where they wrote on my body and the difficulty of removing the ink.

I once served a beautiful Black Mistress who had me act as a servant at a 'tea' party for her and 5 of her friends. I sucked all of their toes, cunts, and assholes, as well taking as multiple dildo fuckings in all three holes. They used large black strap ons so they could punish a white whore for catching the eyes of their men. They took great pleasure in calling me names, spitting in my mouth and on my face, and giving me a golden shower to teach me who was boss. I was slapped in the face, tits, and ass, had my nipples twisted, and beaten with a belt as I crawled on all fours to their amusement.

I enjoyed these and other sessions because I enjoyed being degraded. They were all consensual.

[pejanon]

Welcome Little Pet,

Hello. I am new to this forum, but wanted to share my view on humiliation. I agree with most that blackmail is not something I find arousing. The victim is not a willing participant.

Humiliation is a whole other arena. My arousal cames from doing something, as one person said, I find morally offensive, or something I wouldn't do willingling on my own. I have served many a Master and Mistress who understand the nature of humiliating me.



I enjoyed these and other sessions because I enjoyed being degraded.
They were all consensual.

Blackmail comes in many subtle (and not so subtle forms). There IS I think consensual blackmail ( I know it sounds contradictory) "Being made to do something I wouldn/t willingling do on my own"?
Or how about: "You don't have to do it Pet, but I would be soooo Proud"?

Have fun

Pejanon

[slave802120]

Blackmail comes in many subtle (and not so subtle forms). There IS I think consensual blackmail ( I know it sounds contradictory) "Being made to do something I wouldn/t willingling do on my own"?

Blackmail is about choice, so in that sense, to give in to a blackmail demand is to 'choose' that path. This isn't exactly 'consent' and in reality, even if the victim surrendered a little bit to begin with and then changed their mind later, it's still a crime in reality. A good recent example is the case of Cameron Diaz and her charges against the guy who filmed her doing that BDSM scene, which I'm sure plenty of people have already seen. There's a case of somebody who clearly volunteered to do one thing in a certain context, but when the very thing she once chose to do was used later to blackmail her, she had the guy charged, and she won her case. The same with Paris Hilton, although methinks she was more concerned that her 'secret video' was an embarrassment not because she's seen sucking cock in it, but that she is clearly inept at the task. hehe

kinkabella

[pejanon]

Blackmail is about choice, so in that sense, to give in to a blackmail demand is to 'choose' that path. This isn't exactly 'consent' and in reality, even if the victim surrendered a little bit to begin with and then changed their mind later, it's still a crime in reality. The same with Paris Hilton, although methinks she was more concerned that her 'secret video' was an embarrassment not because she's seen sucking cock in it, but that she is clearly inept at the task. hehe

kinkabella

Doing something in private and doing it on film for a lot of sweaty people is not exactly the same cup of tea, is it?
(Paris Hilton was concerned? Wasn't she just putting up the front? hehe)

Anyway I tough this was about fiction? That place where all that beautiful psychological acrobatics can be explored without real blackmailer messing oh so intricately constructed tableaus and scenarios? (I love to do what I hate only if I'm made to do it but I don't want to be made do it consensualy but it has to have at least an appearance of nonconsensuality except when etc…)
You know … the place between sleeping and waking …
And in fiction there isn't much choice in the begging. If the victim does not choose to go along … well I'll let her/him to their lives, and all the luck, but sorry, I will go on to next story where the victim submits, at least just a little.
Have fun

[slave802120]

Anyway I thought this was about fiction?

Yes, and my apologies if it sounded like I was trying to impose any sort of reality on the discussion about blackmail fantasy.

One of these days I might write a blackmail fantasy along these lines:

THE BLACKMAILER

It was a dark and stormy night. My hand trembled as I read the blackmailer's demands. 'I will tie you up in my dungeon and rape all your holes with my humungous, blood-engorged cock!!! You will love it!!!!!! If you don't surrender to my demands, I will post all the pix I have of your naked ass to the Internests!!!!!!!!!! GO TO THIS ADDRESS NOW!!!!!! (123 X Street, Dumbsville)'

"Oh woe! Woe is me! Whatever shall I do?" I cry.

"Call the police," my husband says.

The tone of his voice is flat and disinterested and he doesn't even look up from his cereal bowl or the morning paper in his hand.

"Oh. Yes, I never thought of that," I say.

I make the call to 911.

Later, over at 123 X Street, Dumbsville...

"It was only a joke!" Mr Blackmailer says as he's led away in handcuffs.

"Yeah, that's what they all say, buddy!"

A nosey neighbor peers over the fence and yells, "I hope they rape your puny ass in jail, Mr Blackmailer!!!!!!!!!!!"

The Blackmailer's face glows a deep shade of red. "This is so humiliating!" he wails.

The cops then bundle him into their car and speed off into the sunset.

The End

(c) 2005 by kinkabella

PS: Lovers of the Bret Easton Ellis' book 'American Psycho' will notice the unreliable narrative style of this little fantasy. Lovers of stroke stories should enjoy the overuse of exclamation marks as well. ;-)

LOL!

[pejanon]

PS: Lovers of the Bret Easton Ellis' book 'American Psycho' will notice the unreliable narrative style of this little fantasy. Lovers of stroke stories should enjoy the overuse of exclamation marks as well. ;-)

LOL!

?????????????

You write such beautifull stuff ... perhaps something along those lines?
I guess this is suposed to be funny. Not particulary - American Psyho or not!

If this is your idea of stroke story - you are dead wrong! (See above posts on detals and background.)

Have fun!

[fantazmaster]

Hello. I am new to this forum, but wanted to share my view on humiliation. I agree with most that blackmail is not something I find arousing. The victim is not a willing participant.

Humiliation is a whole other arena. My arousal cames from doing something, as one person said, I find morally offensive, or something I wouldn't do willingling on my own. I have served many a Master and Mistress who understand the nature of humiliating me.

Some examples of positions I've been put into: Forced to serve as a fuck toy at a stag party for the Master. Each man wrote on my body after using me degrading comments with a sharpie marker. Although most of the physical punishment was limited to slapping my ass and tits, along with pulling my nipples, I was forced to miss two days of work because of where they wrote on my body and the difficulty of removing the ink.

I once served a beautiful Black Mistress who had me act as a servant at a 'tea' party for her and 5 of her friends. I sucked all of their toes, cunts, and assholes, as well taking as multiple dildo fuckings in all three holes. They used large black strap ons so they could punish a white whore for catching the eyes of their men. They took great pleasure in calling me names, spitting in my mouth and on my face, and giving me a golden shower to teach me who was boss. I was slapped in the face, tits, and ass, had my nipples twisted, and beaten with a belt as I crawled on all fours to their amusement.

I enjoyed these and other sessions because I enjoyed being degraded. They were all consensual.

Yes little pet,I think these experiences definently falls within the parameters of
Humiliation.Btw,you don't happen to have your own website where you are named Princess?

[Little Pet]

Yes little pet,I think these experiences definently falls within the parameters of
Humiliation.Btw,you don't happen to have your own website where you are named Princess?

No, but in the website of my dreams I am called many degrading names when I'm being abused.

[Ranai]

THE BLACKMAILER
(...)
"Oh woe! Woe is me! Whatever shall I do?" I cry.

"Call the police," my husband says.

The tone of his voice is flat and disinterested and he doesn't even look up from his cereal bowl or the morning paper in his hand.

"Oh. Yes, I never thought of that," I say.
(...)
The cops then bundle him into their car and speed off into the sunset.

The End
(c) 2005 by kinkabella

:haha: kinkabella, you rock.

'Oh no!' quoth the erotica fantastica writer, 'It's the dreaded plausibility check!', and :exit: the fantastica writer goes... into the sunset.

Some plots need to shy the plausibility check like a Boggart shies away from laughter.
As erotica fantastica, they can be quite enjoyable though.

Anyway, the plausibility check means 'plausibility within the fictional framework'. As a writer you determine the parameters, the society, the rules, the possible consequences of this or that action or inaction. Blackmail fiction writers don't even need to invent reasons that would make sense in the real world; for the plot to work they merely need to invent reasons that function well in this particular fictional universe, and show the readers how and why they work.

[pejanon]

Anyway, the plausibility check means 'plausibility within the fictional framework'. As a writer you determine the parameters, the society, the rules, the possible consequences of this or that action or inaction. Blackmail fiction writers don't even need to invent reasons that would make sense in the real world; for the plot to work they merely need to invent reasons that function well in this particular fictional universe, and show the readers how and why they work.

This sums it up perfecty.

[Satan_Klaus]

Anyway, the plausibility check means 'plausibility within the fictional framework'. As a writer you determine the parameters, the society, the rules, the possible consequences of this or that action or inaction. Blackmail fiction writers don't even need to invent reasons that would make sense in the real world; for the plot to work they merely need to invent reasons that function well in this particular fictional universe, and show the readers how and why they work.

Certainly true, but most blakmail fiction is set in the supposedly "real" world. Therefore many rules are already set because the reader knows something about the workings of the real world. In a purely fictional world anything goes.

In a world that deviates from ours in small but recognizable ways, the reader can not be sure that every rule that applies here is valid there but it still gives the story a "realistic" feeling because the worlds are so similar.
It is easier for the author to keep up the suspension of disbelief even in "implausible" situation.

Satan_Klaus

[pejanon]

Certainly true, but most blakmail fiction is set in the supposedly "real" world. Therefore many rules are already set because the reader knows something about the workings of the real world. In a purely fictional world anything goes.

In a world that deviates from ours in small but recognizable ways, the reader can not be sure that every rule that applies here is valid there but it still gives the story a "realistic" feeling because the worlds are so similar.
It is easier for the author to keep up the suspension of disbelief even in "implausible" situation.

Satan_Klaus

Yes, within real world. But real in fictional sense. No in real 'real' sense (reality is just to bumpy and upredictable).
And yes, blackmail stories must be most realistic in all the genre.
But I must agree with Ranai, You could place your story in, say, Mars base, invent any absurd initial blackmail wrench and than you .. .

"merely need to invent reasons that function well in this particular fictional universe, and show the readers how and why they work."

Then we're back to humans and their relationships. Without that there's no blackmail/humiliation.

Can't agree that anything goes in purely fictional world. You still need "plausibility within the fictional framework" or if you prefer LeGuin's consistency rule: "No matter how preposterous your world is it must be consistent and you have to stick to it!"
Those "small deviations" can be great! P. Dick used that to keep the reader (and the characters) on the edge and whenever you perform 'reality check' he gives you another jolt. I'm not sure if something like that could be used in blackmail stores - but it would be interesting, certainly.


Have fun.

Pej

Hey, this is supposed to be Humiliation tread.

[darkavenger]

This isn't a story I'm in the midst of writing, it was just an example of what I think of as "true humiliation". I guess I posted this because I get so frustrated reading stories that start off with a humiliation theme and suddenly the woman is enjoying it. Maybe my fantasies are sick, but they are more true to life than most of the stories I read.

Carrie, I suppose its about whether its "nc humiliation" or "consensual humiliation". I have written a story entitled Grace's Hard Lessons with blackmail and nc humiliation as themes - the style is intended to be realistic or 'true to life' as you put it. Would love to get your comments on it.

["Roof"]

If you look at a lot of my stories you will find the theme of humiliation in them. Even my first novel called "Teaching The Au Pair to Submit" is based on humilation and submission.

Are you gonna do more (discipline & humiliation) stories?

[Lee Boudine]

I was browsing back through inactive threads and came upon this on with opinions on humiliation.

I have an interest in interrogation: a process in with humiliation plays a very important part. Just look at the techniques used in Iraq and Guantanamo.

Is any one else interestied in reviving this thread ?

[Desperadosong]

I'd sure enjoy reading the origional story .... when and if it gets completed....

Ds

[Lee Boudine]

arrested as a suspected IRA courier is caught by the British Constabulary and taken to their barracks for ointerrpogation..............................

Will someone write a short account of her interrogation ? Here's her pic for starters. :