I'm having a wee smidget prob understanding what on earth you are all arguing about. I'm not sure what Naomi's point is either. So I'll try to work on both.

Please - I have stated this in an entirely male dom/female sub way - but I do not believe at all that it is a purely hetero issue, and I hope that all female doms/male subs will forgive me for being lazy and, frankly, wanting the words to flow. I am female and I am mostly hetero - so it's the way I think. It is not in any fashion meant to be exclusive.

1) Rhabbi, Oz, Logic: I don't believe you actually do disagree. It seems to me that the thing you havn't asked is 'what happened after she forgot the first time?'

If her master gave her a stern talking to, or even reminded her mildly but seriously, then she forgot again the very next day then yes, the immediate impression would be that it smacks of carelessness - a less than serious attitude to one's submission. I would expect any of the three of you to react in a fairly serious fashion, if you knew that this was the case.

You might, however, take into account any myriad of other factors - some subs may indeed have issues remembering things, for valid reasons; or maybe they are incredibly busy and stressed in their lives at the moment, and taking a hard line on routine matters that are suffering unusually will solve nothing, they need some understanding, they are human and have their capacity levels; etc etc.

I don't believe any of you - no, not even you, Oz, with your hard-line attitude - would just systematically say 'That is pure disobedience, I automatically punish'. You would consider; you would take into account what you know of that sub; you would know whether this behaviour was abnormal; basically, you would apply your minds, you would not just look up in a little book that said 'Forget twice == disobedience== punish'. Every situation is unique, every person is unique, every relationship is unique.

And I am quite certain that if you felt the sub was actually being lazy or purposefully disrespectful, you would punish; you would also then monitor.

2) Punishment - play punishment. Obviously, a sub also knows her dom. And a sub has desires. Sometimes, those desires are purposefully to be bratty or to misbehave in some way, in order to seek 'punishment' (aka play where she knows she will suffer and both will enjoy giving and taking the suffering). She knows what she's doing, she is doing it on purpose - and she knows it is within a limit where he will react in a playful manner, not actually taking her behaviour as genuine disobedience. We all agree that this is not real punishment. I believe we all recognise that it is a sub's job to give him the come-on and keep him amused, too.

Sometimes, however, the behaviour is a way of trying to show the dom, without having the guts/ability to say it outloud, that the sub wants greater control, or more play, or that there is some other form of problem in their relationship. The sub has the right to state her needs. She should state them in clear communication to her dom - but may not always manage; she may need assistance to open up something that is hard for her.

It is again part of the dominant's role to understand why the sub is behaving in a certain way. And if he doesn't understand, and the sub is not talking, to open the discussion and provide the sub with a space to explain her behaviour; or even to push her to do so, despite her reluctance. It may come out of this discussion that the behaviour was wilfully disrespectful, or a mixture of stuff, and may require punishment and talk and monitoring.

Again - just assuming that punishment is the only answer with no thought or understanding - I don't think any of you does that.