Quote Originally Posted by TomOfSweden View Post
Please correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't this circular argumentation?
Actually, I believe it is an accepted field of study. There are those who specialize in learning about authors and artists by studying their published works and personal papers and propounding theories about why they said things in a certain way, or why they used a certain technique in their art. Not my field of study, but in essence this is what theology is.

Nah, you're making simple things complicated again. Making a case for gods existence isn't so hard. Whenever you witness, measure, feel or what ever Christians do, the presence of God, you can if you judge it so, use it as proof of gods existence. Like my Cambridge friend points out. Logic is just a tool. If you put garbage in you get garbage out. But if you have taken the leap of faith that your evidence you put into the logical formula is irrefutable then it isn't garbage and your logical conclusion for the existence of god is solid.

Here's an example of perfectly valid science using solid logic. In today's scientific climate it doesn't have the critical stance required to be called "good science", but it is real science none the less.

1. Observe some aspect of the universe. (Water Boils when heated to 100 degrees C)
2. Invent a tentative description, called a hypothesis, that is consistent with what you have observed. (Water boils when heated because God wished it so.)
3. Use the hypothesis to make predictions. (Water will Boil when I heat it, God will cause it to Boil.)
4. Test those predictions by experiments or further observations and modify the hypothesis in the light of your results. (I heated water, God Willed it to Boil)
5. Repeat steps 3 and 4 until there are no discrepancies between theory and experiment and/or observation. (God made my water Boil Every time except for once, the devil put out my flame)

The big question is: have you witnessed God or a manifestation of god? When you witnessed this god force: how did you go about identifying it as a god? How did you tie that manifestation to the deity as explained in the Vulgate Bible? How did you tie that deity to the moral values explained in the Vulgate Bible? As you no doubt realise, we can go a lot further than this in our scepticism and question if and how the various parts of the Bible is connected to the God you witnessed.

So even if you have enough proof to convince yourself of the existence of, not only the supernatural but also a "God", you still have a long road to travel before you end up at Christianity. And you made such a strong case for agnosticism that I'm wondering how it is possible for a person as open minded as you to pigeon-hole yourself as holding such a spe******ed form of theism? It's not only the Christian god but a very specific form of Christianity.

As my Cambridge friend pointed out. Without the required support, any faith is a massive leap of faith right out into the dark. Others can attack your faith, but as long as you've taken the necessary steps to support your religion rationally you've got no reason to waver in your faith. Me personally, I'm very sceptical if that is even possible to support theism in this way and I'd love it if you'd show me the steps you took to support your faith.

edit: You could admittedly take what figures of authority say as evidence to, (like a friend you trust for example). But that makes you a sucker. Especially considering the case for the existence of anything supernatural isn't particularly solid yet. And you can't take incomplete or unconvincing evidence and judge it by sheer numbers. That is probably the most common error in logic. Each case of evidence has to be separately judged.
I could make a logical argument for God's existence. Doing so would leave me with a two part question, is it valid and is it true?

To be valid would be rather simple, if the premises are true then the conclusion is true. Let us use your example of boiling water.

  1. God designed the universe so that water would boil at 100 C at sea level.
  2. God controls every aspect of the universe continually
  3. Water will not boil if God does not actively watch and make sure it happens.
  4. Every time water is heated it boils at 100 C at sea level.

    Conclusion: God exists.


Tis is a perfectly valid argument. If the 4 premises are true then the conclusion is true. But does that make the argument true? No, it is fallacious.

As I stated earlier, it would be impossible to use logic to prove anything in the real world because we have to use inductive logic, and all inductive arguments are fallacies. Here is an example of a inductive argument that is valid, that everyone would agree with, yet is still a fallacy using the definitions of logic.
  1. Every day to date the law of gravity has held.
    Therefore
  2. The law of gravity will hold tomorrow.


Every person I know believes this line of logic, in fact I would go so far as to say that every person alive has total faith in this logic. Nonetheless it is still not true, it is a fallacy. this is why logic has the terms strong and weak to also define arguments. the argument above is a strong one, mostly because it has a premise that everyone agrees is true, even though there is no proof of it. How do we know that the Law of Gravity and the Gravitational Constant has always held steady?

To make an argument for the existence of God using logic the best case I could make would be a weak inductive argument. this is because I cannot offer premises that are facts, or even that are generally accepted. You talk about a leap of faith being necessary at the end of the argument, but the truth is it would be necessary throughout the argument. If we cannot agree on observable phenomena that indicates the presence of god, then how can I make an argument for his existence?

Let us engage in a thought experiment.
We are both in a little town of Bethany approximately 2000 years ago. We are in a quantum bubble to research the account of the resurecction of a certain man called Lazurus.

He died approximately four days ago and was buried according to the customs of the time and culture. We witnessed the preparation of his body for burial with special herbs and as it was wrapped in linen. We were unable to use advanced methods to test whether he was dead, or simply in a coma so deep that the people were unable to detect signs of life. this has something to do with the limitations of time travel and the universe protecting itself from paradoxes.

Tis day the man that would one day be known as Jesus Christ arrives, and after a bit of conversation with the family and friends he asks that the stone that closes off the tomb where Lazarus was buried is rolled aside by a few bystanders.

Jesus then offers up a short prayer and calls Lazarus out of the grave. We then watch as Lazarus does indeed walk out of the tomb, and when his friends finish unwrapping the linen that bound him for burial he appears healthy to us.

We both having witnessed this event still have to draw conclusions from it. I look it as an affirmation of my faith and proof of God's existence. You point out that there is no real evidence to support my conclusion.

How do we know he was dead? There are many stories from history that tell of people who were thought to be dead who later awoke. They used to sell coffins based on the fear that people were often mistakenly buried alive.

Even today there are occasional cases of people being so deep in a coma that trained professionals occasionally think they are dead when they are not. This might be unlikely, but it is not impossible.

I hope you can see now why I say it is impossible to make a logical argument to prove that God exists. There have been a few that have tried to do this, but I recognize the limitations of logic to make this argument, as does your Cambridge friend. the difference between him and I is that I do not take the limitations of logic to be proof against the existence of God. If he was being consistent in his beliefs he would also have to deny the existence of everything that logic cannot prove.