Removing underage stories

[lex ludite]

You're right. A child cannot consent. Good thing there aren't any of them in ANY of the stories posted herein. They're only words. Made up pieces of someone's imagination.

And while we're on the topic of what's NOT BDSM, let's not forget the following story codes that also have no grounds in ANY BDSM relationship:

incest
snuff
high school (goes with that "young" code)
sci-fi
reluctant
mc
blackmail
torture
nc
extreme
violent

So, then, shall we not also remove all stories with these codes, too, in order to keep with the "SSC BDSM philosophy?" Or do we allow the artists and authors here some leeway to write FANTASY pieces that people with OPEN MINDS can read and enjoy?

In my view, you cannot have one without the other. If your pitch is that the young code doesn't involve any "real" BDSM, then you must also agree, by default, that all of those other codes must go, too. For, certainly, no one in a "real" SSC BDSM relationship would involve themselves with any of the activities depicted by those codes, would they?

Or perhaps it would just be easier to give reality a shot and realize that these are works of FICTION, featuring fictitious characters in fictitious settings performing fictitious acts, and that no REAL people are being involved in any way. Or would that be too easy?

Ever since I started posting to this site these codes have been in existence. Naturally if they are there, it is only fair to assume that stories addressing these topics are acceptable to the site. Any argument with the logic so far? Now Jinn is proposing to remove the "young" code. What did young ever mean when the lower limit as defined by Jinn was thirteen! Guess what, most authors just put down "teen", since it's an issue of how many children can dance on the head of a pervert. Now the chickens are coming home to roost and Jinn still doesn't get it. He has to radically revise the codes and make sure that every author understands that there can be nothing outside of them. In parallel with that he has to pull out every story that violates the new guidelines. As for revising those being pulled out; that is moot at this point. I personally could care less, since I'm on record as refusing to comply with self censorship after the fact. Finally he has to absolutely refuse to post anything that is illustrated. I sit here in disbelief as Jinn crusades against "young" stories and is too busy and short-sighted to take down something like "To Obey" which will be the poster child when the inquisitors come for his site, pocketbook and personal freedom.

[shdowrnnr]

Is this "filtering" of stories the reason there hasn't been an update on the front page with new stories?

[lex ludite]

Is this "filtering" of stories the reason there hasn't been an update on the front page with new stories?

Who knows? The site has been screwed up for better than two weeks, and no one seems to have noticed, which tells you something about the rank and file that claim to belong to this site. My guess is that the webmaster is running so scared right now, he hasn't the faintest idea about what to do. For example he claimed in his missive dated Oct. 14th, that within a week authors would be notified about which of their stories were to be removed from the site. That obviously has not happened.
I also happen to think that he has been given some very bad advice about what is attracting the feds to sites such as his. If you read the Gonzalez handout, and he's the hatchet man for this witch hunt, you'll notice that child porn, whatever that is defined to be in this day and age, is not on his list of interests when it comes to the written word.
I think that Jinn just listened to the whinners and holier than thou types who spend most of their time wringing their lily white hands at those of us who are providing most of the muscle for this site, and bought into their agenda. Now he's screwed, because that doesn't seem to be the agenda of the guy running the witchhunt. What is however, is the stock and trade of this site. So it looks like we, the readers and authors, are the ones getting screwed. Also overlooked in the noise is the fact that Jinn's livlihood is hanging in the balance. If he has to gut the site to appease the feds he has to find some new way to make an honest living, and that probably means no BDSM Library since his advertisers will be running as scared as he is. It would be very interesting to hear from a few of the authors who are also hanging in the balance.

[heycarrieanne]

When I first started reading the stories here, if I remember correctly, a woman was doing the updating. Sometimes it HAS been weeks in between updates, so I just look and see when new stories are up and read what I think might be exciting to me. It's not that big of a deal if it is a couple of weeks betwwen postings.

:strip1:

I can always entertain myself!

[lex ludite]

When I first started reading the stories here, if I remember correctly, a woman was doing the updating. Sometimes it HAS been weeks in between updates, so I just look and see when new stories are up and read what I think might be exciting to me. It's not that big of a deal if it is a couple of weeks betwwen postings.

:strip1:

I can always entertain myself!

Jinn and I discussed this matter at some length about six months ago, and he agreed to start posting on a fairly regular schedule, twice a week, usually on Wednesday and Saturday. He had followed this agreement rather scrupulously until about two weeks ago. Since according to him, the number of postings submitted often is greater than his maximum of 25 per change, it would be odd indeed if this cessation in posting didn't have something to do with the current brouhaha over the impending move on sites such as this by the feds.

[Alex Bragi]

A very good point TG... I agree with what you are saying completely. However, aren't you just preaching to the converted?

Don't mean '..preaching to the perverted'?

And, it's funny but that's exactly what I was thinking--why bother bitching here?

[Carnivale Ed]

Symbolism?

I think I'd feel better about this whole thread if everyone said, "We disagree with the decision in principle, but understand why you find it necessary, Jinn."

It's the people who aren't objecting because they just don't like underage stories that I find hard to comprehend. It's like they haven't followed the logic through. It's all perverse in someone's eyes.

And congratulating Jinn for making the decision? Bizaare. He's already stated that this has almost nothing to do with the actual content and everything to do with the political climate.

CE.

[orchidsoul]

Symbolism?
It's the people who aren't objecting because they just don't like underage stories that I find hard to comprehend. It's like they haven't followed the logic through. It's all perverse in someone's eyes.

As strange and odd as it may be considering the site we're on, to some, it is beyond perverse and just plain wrong for underage (children) stories. I won't lie... I'm one of them. I don't understand the attraction and I never will... and if you asked anyone that knows me they would say I can understand almost anything regardless if I agree. I at very least see both sides. I just don't see both sides to children involved in a sexual fantasy. Then again, I'm someone who doesn't like fantasy that couldn't turn into reality, so maybe that's why? But honestly, regardless of the specific kind of story that Jinn felt he had to regulate/censor/eliminate on this site, I wouldn't argue because it's not my site. It's not my ass on the line.

sorry. Hope that helps explain a little though.

[Carnivale Ed]

Hope that helps explain a little though.

I get why you don't like underage stories, I really do. I sympathise, they make me uncomfortable, too. Ultimately, though, it's completely irrelevant. Not liking something in fiction, detesting it even, is not a good enough reason to support a ban, especially considering what the 'outside world' may well think of the rest of the stories on this site.

By all means, if you can't stand even the thought of a child engaged in a sex act, don't read the stories that feature them. But, please, don't consider it a positive move that a fantasy, no matter how repulsive, is being censored.

Essentially, you're condoning an act simply because it doesn't, immediately, affect you. But what happens when it does? Will it be acceptable for someone else to ban your favourite story, simply because they consider your tastes 'beyond perverse'? And, I'm sure, there are many who do. Should they have that right? Unless you are, in theory, prepared to sacrifice the site in its entirety, then, in principle, you cannot support this ban.

Don't be pleased something is gone just because you didn't like it. Think about why it's gone, and then mourn it's loss.

I took no offence at anything you said, orchid, I hope the same is true in return. Also, I've said many times now, Jinn must do what is right for him. In that, he has my support.

CE

[Carnivale Ed]

Agreed. That's why I posted this:

I think I'd feel better about this whole thread if everyone said, "We disagree with the decision in principle, but understand why you find it necessary, Jinn."

[funtime37]

is the server that this site on in Canada or the US? tourguide lives in Canada so what is the beef with US laws? or did i miss something along the way?

[Kaori-san]

More interesting points... but some of closing down and re-designing it?! ....

However, will closing down the child stories solve anything in the end; the government seem against poor between consenting adults who's job is to make porography. This new anti-porn squad is a danger no matter what.

However, what are people going to do if all porn sites based in the US are closed down, will there be an outcry.. unlikely, but the government are going to have problems when the sites are just based abroad. There are download sites for mp3's etc now based abroad after they were going to be closed down.

Wouldn't it be better for the governments to start concentrating on something more important than pornography, there are enough problems in the world today for all the rich countries to deal with, yet they waste their time shutting down websites.

[Alex Bragi]

I received this in my subscription to "DOMestic" today and I felt it would be of interest.

subject line: X: the Bush/Gonzales War against Free Speech
posted on: Sun, 23 Oct 2005 16:35:53 -0000
posted by: "thrash999" (email address removed)

FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE - National Coalition for Sexual Freedom

Contact: (removed)

Wave of Obscenity Prosecutions Leads to Closure and Self-
Censorship of SM Websites October 20, 2005 - Attorney General
Alberto Gonzales has announced that his office will specifically
target "bestiality, urination, defecation, as well as sadistic
and masochistic behavior" in pursuing new obscenity
prosecutions. The Department of Justice began recruiting in late
July for a new anti-obscenity squad to pursue obscenity
prosecutions, and the FBI announced in September that it was
forming an anti-obscenity task force to crack down on
pornography.

Any website that has content containing "bestiality, urination,
defecation, as well as sadistic and masochistic behavior" should
be forewarned that prosecution is possible. Additionally,
Federal sentencing guidelines state that any obscenity- related
punishment should be "enhanced for sadomasochistic material."

Forty people and businesses have been convicted of obscenity
since 2001, and 20 additional indictments are pending according
to Andrew Oosterbaan, chief of the Justice Department's child
exploitation and obscenity section. There were only four
obscenity prosecutions during the eight years of the Clinton
administration.

Though adult content is, in theory, protected by the First
Amendment, only a jury can determine if a work is obscene or not
under the subjective set of standards that vary from one
community to the next established in the 1973 Supreme Court
ruling, Miller v. California.

Text is not inherently more protected than images when it comes
to obscenity charges. The erotic fiction website Red Rose
Stories is facing obscenity charges after federal agents raided
the owner's home on October 3rd, taking computer equipment and
diskettes that contained all of their files and site
information.

The Department of Justice is clearly hoping that websites will
self-censor or remove their content entirely. Midori, a fetish
model and SM educator who teaches classes on bondage, has
removed her website, BeautyBound.com, citing fear of obscenity
prosecution. The owner of three SM websites, known as GrandPa
DeSade, removed his websites from the Internet. SuicideGirls.com
also announced they are self-censoring their materials over
concerns about a possible obscenity crackdown.

Recent prosecutions of obscenity on websites include: A former
police officer in Lakeland, Florida, was arrested on October 7th
on over 300 obscenity-related charges for the sexual content
posted on his website. The same day, webmaster Chris Wilson,
owner of amateur website NowThatsFuckedUp.com, was raided on
charges of obscenity by a local Sheriffs office.

"I think it's crucial for us to stand up for consensual
sadomasochism and other alternative sexual practices," says
Barbara Nitke, fetish photographer. "This is a battle worth
fighting, and I hope everyone who can will just censor out the
most provocative material from their websites, but keep them up.
I also appeal to the lawyers in our community to help us find
ways to keep people's websites up."

Barbara Nitke and the National Coalition for Sexual Freedom
(NCSF) have proactively challenged federal obscenity laws as
applied to the Internet, arguing that obscenity laws based on
"local community standards" are too vague and their existence
burdens protected speech, resulting in self-censorship due to
the fear of prosecution. A district court three-judge panel in
New York ruled that while Nitke and the NCSF members were at
risk, more proof was needed that obscenity laws cause otherwise
protected speech to be restrained through acts of self-
censorship.

The case is currently on appeal to the United States Supreme
Court. "The effect of silencing alternative lifestyle speech was
exactly why we brought the lawsuit," says attorney John
Wirenius, lead counsel for NCSF. "The self- censorship we are
seeing underscores the importance of supporting our ongoing
obscenity challenge."

To contribute to the appeal of the CDA lawsuit, go to: (removed)

The National Coalition for Sexual Freedom is a national
organization committed to creating a political, legal, and
social environment in the United States that advances equal
rights of consenting adults who practice forms of alternative
sexual expression. NCSF is primarily focused on the rights of
consenting adults in the SM- leather-fetish, swing, and
polyamory communities, who often face discrimination because of
their sexual expression.

(web site, email, name and address removed)

***

Since I was unsure if it was ok to post names and address here, I've removed them.