Removing underage stories

[ghostsblood]

Consider for a moment "Amercian Psycho".

In my eyes it is the perfect example of neo-litterature providing a view of such attrocities (rape, murder, rape-murder, murder-rape etc) from the protagonists POV.

Is it still legal over there?

I mention it to cover a few points here. Firstly: It provides a character who performs acts of depravity that would eclipse most stories here, and while doing so Ellis puts us in his mind and manages to draw us onto his side. This is not an easy thing to do considering the depths which he goes to brutalise his victims.

Also, despite the sexual nature of his attrocities, it is not a sexually charged novel, it is simply a thriller/horror (To some with a finer appreciation; a deeply disturbed black-comedy). Which for my 2cents is what I write, I have been quite obviously inspired by Ellis's style, one day I might actually be able to provide a story line to go with my scenes.

As for "rape isn't murder" of course it isn't. But they are the same sides of different' die. On one hand you have sexual abuse which starts with wolf whistles and peaks at rape. On the other hand we have violence which starts with name calling and ends with murder. Both are crimes at the top of theire respective food chains and both are a total destruction of the victims liberties.

To write about either subject is much the same. To provide a protagonist/s that the reader empathises with, despite their personal feelings, is a skill that should be appreciated not punished. To provide children as the victims is more a sign of the times than anything else... there is no end to the fiction on paper and on TV that provide acts of sexual violence against adults; so much so that it has lost its edge, it has become blase, so we must push it further to achive the gut wrenching horror that American Psycho gave in spades.

To make a point, Americal Psycho comes wrapped in plastic with a big ol' R printed on it (over here it does anyway). Why can't every story with graffic sexual violence get the same treatment? Who (other than christians) wakes up and decides it is their civic duty to force their own beliefs on someone else; this truly a perversion of personal liberties.

[Snurgla]

If it's the fact that murder and rape "destroys the victim's liberties", then arguably censorship should be considered a crime too. It does nothing except destroy people's liberties. The protection it has been said to give is gravely unsupported by fact, and has in fact never been substantiated in any way.

As for the murder-rape discussion, I find them extremely different crimes. Rape is one of the most hurtful things a person can be put through. Murder denies that person a future completely. If I got to choose, I would choose to be raped without hesitation. That way, I would get to live on, have good and bad experiences, get children, etc. Live. The cultural stigma put on sex is much of the problem here. When discussing how bad rape is, there is always the discussion of social stigmatization. Therapy often consists of merely bringing the rape up time and time again over the course of several years, something that to my mind is simply not healthy. We are expected to hold to the slow, ritualistic sex life society prescribes for us, and this is motivated by our feelings that sex is so sacred and taboo a subject we can not even be allowed to talk about it. Thus, anything sexual that doesn't follow our expected sexual course becomes horrifyingly destructive.

Now, I find rape an extremely brutal crime that I wish could be abolished, do not think otherwise. However, a healthy dose of sexual liberty would do much to lessen the "ultimate crime" status of it, something it does not deserve. Murder is far, far worse.

[Blake]

For American Pysco, that's a book though. Not text on a screen open to every person on the internet. A book has to be mainly obtained through a library, or ordered from some distributor. So, access is not so easily available. unlike here, where access is open to every single user of the internet, and with the click of a button they can jump from one topic to the next as quickly as they so desire. Simply put, a book is solid and defined and you get exactly what it depicts, and then it ends. It's only what is in the book. The internet is a Mass of content, and you get basically anything you want, and things you don't want. You're basically swimming in a sea of anything, unlike a book where it follows a defined start to finish guideline and you pick when you want to be subjected to it, and for how long. You could argue you can with reading stories here aswell on the same basis, but because of the simply quick change, and fluid connection you can have from any other subject matter to a bdsm subject matter, is of a 'concern' to people. Again, children and their access. Little people who are afraid of the truths of life, and refuse to accept that they exsist, so they accept the 'reality' that it doesn't and if it does it's a perversion of life and must be stopped. The internet gives them the greatest advantage to impose their power, and it's also very difficult. Unfortunatly, topics with Children and sex easily fall against their moral boundaries, and they are taking advantage of that. You know they will never debate the topic of expression on that matter, no one could win the argument. Could you imagine "so and so defends novels depicting Rape of Children". Defend, Rape and Children being in huge block letters. No one wants to be smeared with such a unbalanced, mutated aspect for defending expression, but that's what it would come down to. I've been in the hiding for the past 20 years so I don't know much about what's out there, but do you know many novels that depict the rape of a child in graphc detail, or sex with minors that has reached the aspect of popularity that American Pyscho has? I mean, american pyscho, even the title has something in it. I have not read it or seen the movie but I figure, it has to be 'solid' enough to be considered a 'novel' with such topics in it. Having large aspects of topics not directly retaining to sex and murder, but to with a fluid blend of other aspects. Leading to the understanding(in however that comes) and fluid life of the person commiting those acts. It probably has a balance of sorts, leading you deeper into his life but without blantently making it out to be just rape and murder. I could be wrong, but i don't see how it could be so popular, and withstand any assaults from the governemnts if it didnt.

It's a novel, a book. On the internet, if it is written firstly here, it's text. Books are, I figure almost impossible to stop or impose guidelines on. It's more on finding distributors and such that's the difficulty. Though, for American Pyscho, I wonder, if he had raped a child, would it have been so accepted? When it comes to children, the people in power go tunnel vision to what is right and what isn't right. No matter how it goes, fantasy or otherwise. It'd be very hard to impose their views on books, but here, on the internet, where it's literally a Mind of it's own, there are no police really, and no laws. So.. they can attack things. it's not solid either, it's data, easily deletable. Not like burning a book.

Another thing that hurts is short stories depicting raping of minors. You don't really get to indepth, and if you do, you're restricted to a short bubble of intensity. Try subjecting someone who is in power to a 50 page story of pure expression on such a deep level. In my views, they probably read stories/books, that take them close to such depths, but tease them with those depths, and constantly have life lines to raise them back to the 'safety' normality they live in. Murders alot easier to jump out of. Sex is, well, it's not so in my opinon. Sex with a child, probably isn't even depicted properly for why it's wrong, more of so, it's just a sick scary thought that we know is wrong, but are truly afraid to look at the reasons for why it is. Granted you can say the reasons, but to let them fill your mind with the colour and flavour that those reasons touch with is another thing. I donno, they make no true sense, but they make sense, if you look through their system.

Also, it's a great + for them. Imagine saying "our law has over thrown the growing number of stories depicting the RAPE of CHILDREN, BDSM, ect" and all the lovable things that go against Jesus Christ and alll his teachings that have been twisted into a game of politics.

In their views, if you obliterate the expression of such things, that's one step closer to obliterating the entire acts of it. Expressing it so others can be subjected to it, is a step closer to increasing the acceptance of it. I don't agree with that at all, you can't stop questions and expressions, not if they truly are not harming someone. The internet should be a open ground for humanity, not a Zoo. It's just they don't like this form of expression so 'open' to everyone. And they have the power, so they're using it. They never are purely true to the understandings and applications of their words. They are selective, so, you get this. It's difficult to defend this though, when you have stories you are defending that are, as I read in a quote

">Let’s look at a story, ‘The Perils of Pauline at Christmas’. This story involves a man dressed as Santa raping and strangling a ten year old girl, and enjoying it. It is non-consensual, brutal and unashamedly paedophilic, and its only merit is that it is a good example of the kind of thing that I would rather not find on this website. "


and

>Let’s also consider a story called Our Fun With Little Crystal. This is a non-consensual story in which a pubescent girl is kidnapped from a playground, tortured, orally raped, asphyxiated and revived, presumably in preparation for a vaginal rape in a subsequent chapter. Terms like ‘her small, growing tits’ and ‘still playing with stuffed animals’ make it clear that the victim is underage. All the way through the words ‘little’ and ‘young’ are interspersed with language saying how much fun this is, and it is clear that the child will eventually be killed. The age of the girl is not mentioned, but we are left in no doubt that this is a particularly nasty piece of paedophilia. "

I wouldn't be defending that. I would be defending the authors ability to have the freedom to express his/her feelings/desires on pen/paper/text/drawings. However it comes out, they do envoke a reaction, and that is what authors/creators want. Some it might also be a way to let out feelings, and to see them for what they are, and better understand them, and enjoy them in a safe and natural way, without harming someone. Who knows. The defined subject matter? I have my reasons for it not being my thing. But I don't impose my reasons onto someone else, just because I truly do not agree with what it is . Unless someone is truly being harmed by it. On the internet, no one is forcing you to read stories like these. So the choice is yours to read them.

And if the schools have problems with children gaining access to these, spend 10 million dollars collecting data and creating filters so the children can be 'protected'.

Just an opinon.

[Alex Bragi]

To provide children as the victims is more a sign of the times than anything else... there is no end to the fiction on paper and on TV that provide acts of sexual violence against adults; so much so that it has lost its edge, it has become blase, so we must push it further to achive the gut wrenching horror that American Psycho gave in spades.

I believe you are right, after a while will this kind of fiction does 'lose its edge', as you put it, 'so we must push it further...' ? The question is, how much further? And, what do we do when it (the written word) no longer thrills us?

[Alex Bragi]

Duplicated.

[Blake]

if i can jump into your question Alex Bragi,

"The question is, how much further? And, what do we do if the written word begins to 'lose it's edge' thilling us?"

Well, if you have a balance of true life, true fantasty and mental fantasy, things don't start to lose their edge. I think if you endulge in too much mental fantasy it does lose it's edge. Read too much of the same style of something far beyond the defined norm, and it might become normal for you and no longer a fantasy. Especially if it's being shown everywhere. But, even if it's shown everywhere, it truly shouldn't take away from the heated experience of the moment. The more we see and expereince in the norm, the more we can improve and develop our emotions and in turn create deeper and more thought provoking responses and thoughts. Reading fantasies and reading the depths they take you to over and over can make them a feel normal, which is why to me you need a healthy balance of life and fantasy, or a strong understanding and will to go further and further into those aspects. No matter what, society might catch up to this aspect, and that might make people it will lose it's edge. But in truth, does it really matter? The next thing that comes is finding new aspects of life to apply to what is already so intriguing and different from the norm. I kind of find it confusing though, when people agrue that they want this to be allowed to be expressed, but are worried about it because they have to go further and further because that expression is becoming more and more abundant and 'normal'. You know the word poser, just because someone can say something, and write something doesn't mean they can effectively do so.

Subject yourself to something too much and it loses it's edge. And with more people, they read other peoples works and learn from those and adapt their thinking and move forward toward those depths that others have reached, making it a kinda normal. Well in that I think that blows, it's too bad people don't actually move to their own development purely on their own, but whatcha gonna do. There will always be similar ideas, but ideas are infinite, and depths are infinite.

So to your question "The question is, how much further? And, what do we do if the written word begins to 'lose it's edge' thilling us?"

How much further? I hope we go forever further. Balance the written word with a healthy lifestyle, and try to live out some 'healthy' fantasies. If the written word loses it's edge, maybe you need to experience life some more and leave the pen for awhile.

Our feelings and sensations shouldn't be depicted or hampered in anyway because a billion people feel the samething, or deeper things. I donno, the more people that you can share things with, the more depths you can find and write about, aswell as experience with. personally, I think it should be an individual search, and good to use sources to find depths, but it's better to find your own, make it more of you. Slowly creating a growing expansion for your expression, and growing from each form of expression, instead of becoming a stale repititious person.
I know I say alot of common known things, but whatever, nice to say them to someone atleast, so sorry if im saying something that appears to make me off to be a smartass or something..

[Spitman]

(a) I kind of find it confusing though, when people argue that they want this to be allowed to be expressed, but are worried about it because they have to go further and further because that expression is becoming more and more abundant and 'normal'. . . Subject yourself to something too much and it loses it's edge. And with more people, they read other peoples works and learn from those and adapt their thinking and move forward toward those depths that others have reached, making it a kinda normal. . . . How much further? I hope we go forever further.

(b) Balance the written word with a healthy lifestyle, and try to live out some 'healthy' fantasies. If the written word loses it's edge, maybe you need to experience life some more and leave the pen for awhile.

What is being discussed in the argument presented in (a) is the development of an obsession. It is like a drug addiction where the same dose is never enough, you always need a little more. The problem is that if someone is sexually aroused by the idea of beating up and raping kids, and writes about it as if he is really doing it, how do you define more? Where is the obsession likely to go?

What I do like is the argument presented in (b). This is really good advice on how to avoid a favourite theme becoming obsessive. First, it is hard to avoid obsession if the stuff you are writing is not a fantasy. If it is a fantasy you can balance it by discovering other fantasy themes you like and writing about those. And I don't mean by different, beating up and raping little boys instead of little girls. I mean, writing about adults, insead of kids. And it is also excellent advice, if you feel that the obsession is taking over, to leave the pen for a while and experience life some more (in the company of adults who do not share the same obsession about kids).

The same advice works pretty well if you feel you are stuck on a particular fetish, whatever it is. Try reading about other fetishes and see if you can work up some enthusiasm for one you had not thought about very much. Then see if you can dream up some new variation on that fetish theme. And I don't mean, like beating up and raping kids wearing high heeled boots. I mean, like being caned by a dominant woman wearing high heeled boots!

[dominyouass]

Un saludo a la comunidad , deseo encontrar una persona que me yude en este negocio , dominyouass

[ghostsblood]

Snurgla: We are thinking in different contexts. As I see it, both rape and murder represent an expresion of the utmost distain for the victim, either making them suffer through the total debasement of their being, or simply robbing them of that life altogether. Either way they are hateful acts in the extreme, and more to the point... acts that will always raise bile in a spectators throat. After all, thats what a horror story is supposed to do.

Blake: c'mon, you can't honestly be trying to differentiate between a book, and a text file. Thats like trying to say a phone conversation is not the same as speaking over a walkie talkie, different medium, but still words. In my eyes, the internet is one big book.. only it starts with google and ends with a file extention. But thats not your point, as much as I dislike censorship, I have no qualm with providing 18+ only security measures; if it means that the internet can continue to provide for adult tatses im all for it.

"Having large aspects of topics not directly retaining to sex and murder, but to with a fluid blend of other aspects. Leading to the understanding(in however that comes) and fluid life of the person commiting those acts. It probably has a balance of sorts, leading you deeper into his life but without blantently making it out to be just rape and murder. I could be wrong, but i don't see how it could be so popular, and withstand any assaults from the governemnts if it didnt."

You should read it, its unlike anything else out there. But.. the story actually goes to extreeme lengths to illustrate Patrick Batemans (lead character) shallowness. He spends whole chapters depicting his after shower routine, others on his opinion of Huey Lewis and the news. Then others still on how the tortures and dismemembers prostitutes. Its a sociopath thing.

Alex: How much further can the written word be pushed..? thats a good one, we could very well be getting close in terms of shock value... thankfully horror stories aren't much more than fluff in the greater scheme of things... there are thousands of years worth of thoughts to wade through. The day the writen word loses its power, is the day I give up and live in the mountains. I like my mindless TV and Xbox... but if i dont get my 2hr a day with a book in my hand, i feel robbed. Now, if I spent 2hrs a day reading stories of child-rape every day, I would be bored of it in a week. But, to find a nugget once in a while, or to take an hour or so every week to add to my own story, I find both cathartic, and exciting.. remember when you were a kid and used to sneak a beer out at 2am in the morning. Its like that; not exactly illegal, but its a rush none the less.

[Blake]

Blake: c'mon, you can't honestly be trying to differentiate between a book, and a text file. Thats like trying to say a phone conversation is not the same as speaking over a walkie talkie, different medium, but still words. In my eyes, the internet is one big book.. only it starts with google and ends with a file extention. But thats not your point, as much as I dislike censorship, I have no qualm with providing 18+ only security measures; if it means that the internet can continue to provide for adult tatses im all for it.

I think you're missing my point. No, to me there is no difference. It is all words, and that's the solid foundation of expression in this respect. But a book, compared to text, is really different. A book exists in reality, text doesn't truly. It's easier to destroy text then it is to destroy a book, so they're going after the text on the internet. There is a difference, in their eyes. You've heard them call things smut vs literature. Im speaking from their perspective, as best as I can say it while still making a sort of sense.. that truly makes no sense in reality.

To stop a book, that truly would go against freedom of expression. It's really more black and white in that way. But on the internet, they can slither through and around expressions, and claim them to be indecent, smut, and so on. It's lax, it's very easily connected, and so they are very easily connecting their 'points' and 'views' in a chain around everything that is being expressed. Children being the main focus. Protecting the children from accidentally viewing,(or direct viewing) tying in other aspects to slowly create a chain that reaches around everything, and is strong enough to contain certain expressions. I mean, junk mail in itself, I read something about it being banned, or something in the process of being put into place, where any junk mail of the sorts that is sent to a childs email, the sender will get into a load of trouble. Well sure, that's good, children shouldn't be subjected to that, but.. that begs the question should children be on here. Sure I guess, but children shouldn't be the focal point for a expression field. They've become the weapons against expression. Anyhow, blocking off small pieces of a larger section of expression is how they are doing it. Starting off with the more, blunt ways. Child rape stories, and so on. Again, since the stories are so short, people who don't understand or care to understand them see them exactly how they want to see them, and it purely comes out as the worst of smut.

No, text and a book are different. Atleast to them. One is on a computer, another is physically printed onto pieces of paper, stamped, blah blah.(yea, all after the fact examples, but those things they cling to, which is worthless facts that shadow what truly is the heart of the problem) The internet just is an easy place for them to place an iron grip over expression of sorts. They don't like BDSM, or any form of sex like it. And as the internet is, like you said, one large book, or as I said, one Mind, it's very open, and easy to be 'structured'. How they even got a foothold on the internet to impose such things is beyond me, i guess since they made it? I donno. We make the internet really. Anyhow.. Ramble. It's just text to them, obsene text, they won't consider it as literature, and want it removed from humanity. The internets a breeding ground for it, so they're having a field day.

No, I completely agree with you, I don't agree with what I have stated in my other post, im simply throwing a perspective of some people that agree with it, in the lightest way i can. To me, there is no difference. And I know they would have more trouble breaking down a novel, printed and distributed on paper back that has sex/rape of a minor, then they ever will with 'text' on the internet. The difference between a phone and a walkie talkie is not to large. The difference between data on a screen and a printed version is. It's still expression, but one is truly solid, the other is just part of a mass of a 'sickness' that's floating around 'infecting' the youth and 'innocence' and 'light' of a 'great' 'society'.

It's hard to defend your position when your opponents have a warped limited generalized view of everything that is different to them. Building a bridge betwen them and you is a good way to start actually having decent discussions, without them slamming "it's wrong" "you are just sick", and crap like that. But the problem is, then it becomes an all out war once those bridges are built, and true conflicts of ideals and understands arise. Right now, they're just bouncing off of eachother, and since they have power, their assualts do damage, slowly, one step at a time. Atleast bdsm is not internet based, or it's be crippled in no Time. If they wanted to go after bdsm, they'd have to go after it in reality, not in a digital way. Anyhow, truly ramble.

I do agree with you, just needed to make that clear. And all of this is just an opinon.

You should read it, its unlike anything else out there. But.. the story actually goes to extreeme lengths to illustrate Patrick Batemans (lead character) shallowness. He spends whole chapters depicting his after shower routine, others on his opinion of Huey Lewis and the news. Then others still on how the tortures and dismemembers prostitutes. Its a sociopath thing.

I definatly will at some point, thanks for the tid bits about it, definatly caught my attention.

[Blake]

Double post

[Dododecapod]

Given that A) the latest batch has a couple of "Young" descriptor pieces, and B) Jinn is no longer in charge (for which I am sorry, but it is so and I'll certainly wait to pass judgement on the replacement team), is the rule still in place? And when will it come into force? A word from our mods would be enlightening.

[csr]

Un saludo a la comunidad , deseo encontrar una persona que me yude en este negocio , dominyouass

Hola... bienvenido! Vaya al área de community/personals para buscar.

[ghostsblood]

Blake: Sorry, I get you now.

[billjam]

Hopefully the policy change has been dropped by the new site owner. Many strong arguments against it have been posted. And banning one kind of story will only lead to pressure to ban others until there is nothing left. The religious right in America is intent on imposing their views on the world to the extent that they are now condemning the White House Christmas card. Do you really think they would be satisfied if we just stopped posting fantasy stories involving "young" characters?

[Spitman]

Hopefully the policy change has been dropped by the new site owner. Many strong arguments against it have been posted. And banning one kind of story will only lead to pressure to ban others until there is nothing left. The religious right in America is intent on imposing their views on the world to the extent that they are now condemning the White House Christmas card. Do you really think they would be satisfied if we just stopped posting fantasy stories involving "young" characters?

I don't agree that the arguments in favour of allowing pedophilia on this website are persuasive. I would rather not share a 'home' for anything I write with that kind of material, especially as the whole site gets labelled as that kind of site, and that then labels all of us as supportive of it.

The freedom to choose not to publish stories about the abuse of young characters is a legitimate freedom too. You may not want to see it that way, but it is true nevertheless.

I happen to think that if the new site owner chooses to exercise his right to exclude certain kinds of material from his site, he will find that there will be more freedom in other directions. As I have said in previous posts, what makes content objectionable is not so much the precise age of the characters, as the way they are described and treated.

[Rabbit1]

Hopefully the policy change has been dropped by the new site owner. Many strong arguments against it have been posted. And banning one kind of story will only lead to pressure to ban others until there is nothing left. The religious right in America is intent on imposing their views on the world to the extent that they are now condemning the White House Christmas card. Do you really think they would be satisfied if we just stopped posting fantasy stories involving "young" characters?

Well the policy has not been dropped ---it is however on hold until some of the other forum problem are worked out -----like the back log of stories to be published ---members complete date of birth in their profile----and other little glitches----it will start being enforced as soon as these problems are under control and we have time to go thru the stories-----

In case you have not noticed another BDSM site has gone the way of Red Rose----yes there may have been other underlying conditions ---but do we want underage stories to be the cause of the Hitler like congress having an excuse to shut us down?

this sit is now under investigation----- http://www.bdsmlibrary.com/forums/sh...ed=1#post48196

[Dick the Slaver]

To Rabbit1 or Tiger

If I were you, I would look at the new advertizing that you place under Cool Sites before I start looking at underage stories. Example: Lustful Babes contains what looks like ten year olds or under having sex with adults. As they say a picture is worth a thousand words.

[Rabbit1]

To Rabbit1 or Tiger

If I were you, I would look at the new advertizing that you place under Cool Sites before I start looking at underage stories. Example: Lustful Babes contains what looks like ten year olds or under having sex with adults. As they say a picture is worth a thousand words.

I will mention this again---advertisers are required to keep their own records as long as we have no pictures on this site ---they have to worry about complying with the laws for their site ---we are only concerned with the content of this site

[Barton]

When you are paying for the site you can make whatever stand you choose. It is not your dime here.

[Sweep]

You've got to do what you've got to do to keep the site going.

I agree with others who say that they do not find any abuse of a minor acceptable. I won't miss the removal of the "young" category of story.

BUT - Where does it stop? This is a fantasy site and very possibly folks who are into kiddy sex can escape in stories just like the rest of us can with stories that fit our sexual proclivities.

Maybe we need to use this site to mobilise a political action. Can we not start an email campaign to key legislators along the lines "I read porn and I vote". We can preserve anononimity by using email accounts on hotmail or lycos etc to start an email assult.

I'd be interested to hear what others think.

[Barton]

I think that it is a battle that we have no chance of ever winning. We are on the outside and always will be.

The climate now is such that no matter what we would do we will be outgunned and overridded. Defeatist?? No, just a realist. Sadly.

[Pottygirl]

Maybe a silly question, but nevertheless...
If underage stories are being removed, why are some new ones in that category still being added?

[lex ludite]

My guess, and it's only a guess, is that it's a matter of first things first. The first thing being that the new Administrator becomes facile in posting stories, regardless of what they contain. Once that issue is well in hand, the hammer will probably drop, missing about half the stories that they tried to eliminate, for the simple reason that many authors did not identify their work as "young", preferring the more broad and generic description known as "teen". There are almost 4000 stories archieved on the site. This means a long and very daunting hunt for the offending stories, with very little support available for this task. Without the cooperation of the authors it could be a rather long time before the site is "purged". Then they can begin the next "mission impossible", eliminating all the stories that contain material that the Attorney General of the US has already decided is obscene. It's going to be a fun year for all concerned. My guess is that when the music ends, this site will be totally gutted of the kind of material that made it a place to post cutting edge material.

[Pottygirl]

Yes, my point though is that the new stories in that genre perhaps should not be posted as it will only make the task of deleting them so much harder.

[Spitman]

My guess is that when the music ends, this site will be totally gutted of the kind of material that made it a place to post cutting edge material.

That makes it perfectly clear what kind of material you regard as 'cutting edge'. I certainly hope that this site will be gutted of that kind of material. I do agree that, due to inadequate oversight, bdsmlibrary had become a place to post blatantly pedophilic material, often labelled as 'teen' rather than 'young'. I for one wish this had never happened.

I also hope that the music will not stop for this site anytime soon, and that we will continue to enjoy genuinely creative, varied and erotic adult content involving bdsm, fetish and other related topics, but not kids. That represents enormous scope for creativity, and need not be seen as any kind of narrowing of interest as it was always the officially stated interest area of bdsmlibrary.

[Rabbit1]

You've got to do what you've got to do to keep the site going.

I agree with others who say that they do not find any abuse of a minor acceptable. I won't miss the removal of the "young" category of story.

BUT - Where does it stop? This is a fantasy site and very possibly folks who are into kiddy sex can escape in stories just like the rest of us can with stories that fit our sexual proclivities.

Maybe we need to use this site to mobilise a political action. Can we not start an email campaign to key legislators along the lines "I read porn and I vote". We can preserve anononimity by using email accounts on hotmail or lycos etc to start an email assult.

I'd be interested to hear what others think.

That is a great Idea----Why do we not "vote" the people out of office that want to change the current laws. You could hold rallies to support your canidate, get other out to vote, even offer transportation to those who can not get to the polls.

I am not joking here, everyone here wants to voice his opinion and seeks support of that opinion. If you want your opinions to be the place to do it is at the polls. Know what your canidate stands for ----if it is in line with your thinking ---go all out and get him elected. That is the way to change things.

[lex ludite]

Now it's "kids" we're protecting, is it! Who put you in charge? For the record, until a group of whiners got to the original owner of this site, his rules, which were followed by the great majority of those submitting stories, clearly stated that no character could be less than 13. That's thirteen, ten plus three in case you have difficulty with higher math! For your information this 18 year old "rule" fell out of the sky less than three months ago, shortly before Jinn bailed on the site. My guess is that he got a bit nervous about what was coming down from the Feds. The funny thing is that Gonzales hasn't said a word about underage anything! He's however hot and bothered by any reference to bodily functions, bestiality and sadomasochism, which puts this site and your narrow interests squarely in his sights. Here's something else to put in your opium pipe and smoke, today's kids are doing lots of things that would probably curl your little toes when it comes to doing the nasty. The age of consent is different for different countries, look it up, it might cause you to use your mind. I even think that the age of "consent" in some of the more backward portions of the USA is well below 18. I also know that until four or five years ago in Japan there was no such thing as "age of consent", yet it was forbidden to show female genitals, no matter what the publication. You figure that one out! In many Central American countries they haven't the foggiest when it comes to age of consent. Don't start whining that I'm a pedophile, or support such activities; that's pure nonsense! Tiger or his boss is going to do what he wants to do. That is his right. Based on what I'm seeing and hearing from what is at best a vocal minority, the issue about underage stories has been settled, so be it. However this is but the nose of the camel under the site's tent. I stand by my prediction that at the rate things are going, this site won't be worth the powder to blow it to hell in another year. For me personally, it's perhaps a blessing, since I've hit a dry spell that is probably going to become permanent. Believe it or not, it has been suggested by an acquaintance that I should consider writing children's stories, now that I can produce a coherent sentence. Wouldn't that be an interesting twist of fate!

[Spitman]

Who put you in charge?

Nobody. I don't have to be in charge, to have the same right to express my opinion as anybody else, including you. And the site owner can disregard your opinion, or mine. That is his prerogative.

As far as the age of consent is concerned, I am well aware that standards vary in different countries, but age is one thing, and consent is another. It may be legally true that there can be no consent below a certain age, but the way I look at it, material where there is a consenting theme involving a person who has at least the appearance of being sexually mature, is a very different matter from material that involves beating up and raping a kid who is obviously not consenting, and who is treated simply like trash, like 13 year old Lucy in Pagan's story 'Every Cinderelle Has Her Day'. If you think this deserves defending, I am at a loss to know why.

What determines whether a site like this is worth 'the powder', as you say, is the quality of the material in it. It's a no brainer that the overall quality will improve without stuff like that.

[Alex Bragi]

Lex,

Everyone is entitled to an opinion, and the fact that one person's differs from another doesn't necessarily make them a 'whiner'.

Of course, you're not a pedophile (or infantophile) because you support those kinds of stories. Reading or writing them is, in my opinion, a completley different matter. The two are poles appart. Regardless of my stance on the issue, I have clear understanding of that.

As anyone into the lifestyle knows, safe, sane, and consensual are the three pillars of bdsm. Stories of prebubescents being abducted, tortured and raped, again in my opinion, just simply aren't suitable for a bdsm site. I think they should have been flagged from the beginning, but then, it's not my site.

You writing children's stories? Why is it so odd? Over the years many authors have chosen to write in totally different genres. If you do choose that path, I wish you well with it.