First the great mystery:
Quote Originally Posted by ObjectivistActivist View Post
Why is most of s-o-c-i-a-l-i-s-m being edited by the forum?
c-i-a-l-i-s is the brand name of a drug for ED (chemical: tadalafil)

And onwards and upwards!

I myself am neither athiest nor agnostic. I definatly believe in a higher power, although I find the idea of a bearded old guy chilling in the clouds a bit hard to swallow. Someone once said that a god whose primary concern was the day-to-day workings of humans can't be a very important god. I believe there is no overall "plan" but in an infinite amount of time everything that can happen will happen, so the point becomes moot. My beliefs stem from a combination of science, logic, religious texts, and my own moral feelings. I don't see any incongruity of somebody taking this-and-that from a religion and leaving the rest. If it doesn't work, or isn't relevant to you, why follow it just to claim a label? If I read a book about a cowboy who is courteous to his neighbors, helps out with his community, is generally a good guy but, has a nasty habit of shooting Mexicans (no offence to any Mexicans intended), can I not model my life after this cowboy without having to go on a shooting rampage?

Before I go any further I am just going to say that I have a habit of being the devils advocate (OH! interesting topic: Satanists rebelling against Christianity), and many times argue a point that I don't necessarily agree with, just to see if I can, and to get the most out of a conversation. That being said, I have a couple of thought experiments

1) young Jane grew up to be an athiest in a devout Catholic family. Her religious views 'disappointed' her family but they remained as close and loving as any family. When Jane turns 23 her mother is diagnosed with terminal cervical cancer. Her mothers strong faith allows her to approach her imminant demise with a sense of acceptance. This made the transition easier (by no means easy) for the entire family, including athiestic Jane. After her mother passed on, after battling bravely for several months, she willed Jane her cruxifix necklace, through which she drew much of her strength. Jane wore the cruxifix, not out of guilt or new found faith, but rather to draw upon the memory of her mothers stoic strength in the face of what, for most people, is the most traumatic experience of their life (i.e the end of it). She found something beyond herself to believe in. Religion provides people with symbols, which are merely an external focus to help you find what is already inside of you.

I think that most people on this thread are from the "Western world" and as such have a warped view of... perspective is the only word coming to mind but it's not quite right... scale maybe? We exist in massive, MASSIVE societies, made even bigger by the advent of the internet. Someone previously stated that some athiests believe in no higher power than the individual, that some may be contemptable of the so-called (and in some cases self-professed) sheep. This is all fine and dandy to be a cut-throat and build up your personal fortune on the gullibility and stupidity of other people, but to put the individual ahead of the society is, literally, cancerous. Since we live in these gigantic societies there is more of a buffer zone, an individual can't make too much of a dent in the system. But what of Africa? For the most part, the countries we see on the map are there only for the convenience of the UN. There exist hundreds of tribes who are just that: tribes. Just like you or me, they have different interests, ideas, dreams from person to person even within the same small tribe. If one person was to start recklessly pursuing personal gain at the expense of others, trouble follows quickly.

Which brings us to
2) there is a native who is put into non-specific situation where his own personal sacrifice (that of his life) will save all 23 other members of his tribe. His failure to lay down his life will surely result in the deaths of everyone but himself. How long do you think this individual will survive by himself in the African wilderness, with no social support, if he chooses the latter option?
I do not believe that human beings are individuals. We merely exist within the context of our society. Hitler took this view to the extreme, just as the Spaniards in charge of the Inquisition took their religious views to the extreme.

As others on this thread before me have said, religion is the precurser to science. The old gods were given birth out of the cold, dark night as the first primordial humans huddled around the fire in fear of what they could not understand. Just like the case of the modern-day bully and geek, they thought to appease their nameless fears, and in this way control them. In some places (like Africa), it is important to have something that ties a community together like religion, if for no other reason than it is important to know there is a group of people you can count on no matter what. The problem seems to me not to be one of religion or spirituality, but of extremism.


In closing, I would just like to say: Have you ever seen an atom? Ever likely to?


PS: I would like to say just one thing to all the people who dispute the theory of evolution: How many songs could Jesus fit on his iPod?