Quote Originally Posted by awakening2 View Post
umm...! well Thorne...just a question, if you have two kids and both of them keep their room clean and tidy (if its not too much to ask from kids these days!), and one does it because it is his/her habbit and the other does it because it is both a habbit and also because s/he knows that you would like it to, who will become your favorite!?! then the two grow up and leave your home and you hear one day both of them being interviewed for their remarkable organizational abilities, one of them says I was born like that and the other says, I like doing it not only because I am an organized person but also because I know that it is what would make my parents happy/proud of me - and after all that they have done for me, I deem find it befitting on mybehalf to make them feel happy as well! Who's would you like more?!
I'm not sure I get your point, here. I can't really see any difference between the two positions you are stating. For my part, I don't care why they keep their rooms clean, as long as they do. (And having raised two boys, I know that this is a forlorn hope.)

The point that I was making, though, is more akin to this analogy:
The mother of twin boys is raising them on her own, because the father is out of the picture for several years. The boys have never met their father, and only know what their mother tells them. And she tells them that if they don't behave, when their father comes home he will throw them out of the house.
Now, one of the boys, fearful of the potential punishment, toes the line and does what he's told. The other boy tells his mother that he doesn't have a father, so she can stop threatening him, but he behaves himself anyway, even though he's not afraid of some future punishment.
Which boy is more admirable? To my mind, the second boy is, simply because he does what's right without fear of being punished. And if it turns out that there really is a father? Which boy would he think is the better of the two?

And which would you choose?