True Control

[thir]

I like inflicting pain. Not out of sadism, but because I get a kick out of the knowledge that the person I inflict pain to, is accepting that pain willingly.

You or anybody else, can call that Sadism. I don't.

Each to their own, and so on.. you should just be aware that many people into bdsm use it in that way.


[/quote]
I'm not in the lifestyle. I'm in life.
JJ[/QUOTE]

I'm with you there, actually. I cannot get used to that expression, yet use it to make myself clear, or try to.

[thir]

In my version of D/s, the submissive is not in control, and submission is not a "gift". If it were, then the sub would really be the top, and that just doesn't work for me.
As always, your mileage may vary.

The submission as a gift of not has had me a bit confused - I am not sure I quite get what the controversy over submission as a gift consists of, or why it would mean that the sub would really be the top?

As I see it, submission as a gift is a sort of one-off thing. You give it away - there it is, your obedience and devotion, nicely wrapped with red ribbons, to be opened and accepted by the dominant. And then thereafter, it is his/hers.

I cannot see how that would rub the power-relation, rather the opposite, in fact. Or is the thought that submission must be taken by the Dominant, not given by the sub?

[JimmyJump]

My line of thinking is a lot closer to Oz's. I wanted to offer the voice of dissent earlier, but couldn't get my thoughts clear enough, so I just let it go.

In my version of D/s, the submissive is not in control, and submission is not a "gift". If it were, then the sub would really be the top, and that just doesn't work for me.

As always, your mileage may vary.

I would indeed call submissiveness a gift. But one from nature. Just like domincance is a gift of nature. It's a way of making life more interesting. It keeps things in balance.

A lot of books, articles, disserations and the lot, have been written about the nature of a Dom/sub relationship.

Like I said before, I feel that it's a Ying and Yang situation. The dominant party gets his/her power from the submission of the other, while the sub has a certain control because it is she/he who has the safe-word.

The sub sets the limits, while the Dom moves within those limits. Should limits be crossed, that's a thing of mutual agreement.

There is not such a thing as a relationship where there are no limits. First and foremost, because no one has a true understanding of what it entices.

Anyway, the debate is an endless one, as everything varies from the standpoint and POV you have, either as a sub or as a Dom.


JJ

[bevj]

You have given me the reason to keep looking for the right Dom for me, because I had almost ran away again. I found someone that I believed in and we talked and I felt that maybe just maybe I had found someone that wouldn't just enjoy using that power and then walk away as I've come to hate and almost go into nun hood. I told him things that I've kept bottled up so long and we meet and at first I have the doubts in my head and tell him and those doubts are taken away. I trust him and allow me to come out. I felt so alive for the first time and as we said our goodbyes and he said he would contact me I believed him, well that didn't happen and again I start with the feeling as here I come nunhood or don't want nun and don't get nun and don't have nun. lol I still can't keep that from myself as I even taught my children not to give up and keep fighting for what you believe in and want in life. I am so giving and I feel like Its taken but there isn't any caring behind those that take from me. I would lay it at their feet freely as I've done so many and many times but when I can't feel that it makes me go on the run as a frightened child or rabbit. I've always known that I was submissive since I was a very young child 6 or 7 years old. Thats just me and I want to know that what I give is given back and not taken and then thrown to the ground like yesterdays trash. I've opened up and he trashed me.

For those doms/subs that are looking there is a lot that say they are dom or they are sub be careful and that is very important for the sub to know as well, I've come to find this out a few times and its very hard to find one that really is from the lifestyle and those that have read and know what one wants to hear and even though he wasn't one to make headline news like beat me up or worse there are those that would in a heart beat that could hurt or worse to you or me. Be careful please.

I do want to thank you for your thread it does make me add this as a learning tool and hope that someday I may be happy and loved and cared for.
thank you again.
beverly

[DJade]

[QUOTE=thir;816413]OMG <G>

On many lists this would cause a storm of reactions from Real Doms who rule naturally by their inborn alpha nature and dominant charisma which causes the subs to fall helplessly to their knees with their knickers all wet..[QUOTE]

True, lol. I am one of them!

[DJade]

OMG <G>

On many lists this would cause a storm of reactions from Real Doms who rule naturally by their inborn alpha nature and dominant charisma which causes the subs to fall helplessly to their knees with their knickers all wet..

But you are right as I see it, integrity is so important - for all relationships really. And patience and trust and growth does not happen overnight.

Thanks, thir

[DJade]

very interesting reading. thank you Miss DJade

You are quite welcome, mikkey!

[DJade]

I guess I just have to put in a dissenting opinion.

The submissive cedes power and control to the dominant, (and the dominant takes it,) because it is mutually beneficial to do so.

Just because the sub can take it back, in no way changes the fact that for that period of time, the dominant is the wielder of the power.

My control is not an illusion. If you insist that it is, then the submission that goes with it is even more illusory. In which case, there is no gift at all because it has no value.

I was out of town for 3 days or I would have answered before this. Your first 2 sentences are not anything I originally negated. As far as control being an illusion, what I actually said was that after the control has been given to the dominant, love continues to develop, cementing the control into the hands of the dominant. It is at this point that the control becomes more powerful.

Do I have control of my sub? Yes. Is it, in this case, an illusion? No. Can he rip it away? Yes. Will he? No. Why not? Because he loves me. And because I am able to wield my control in such a way that he both feels and understands my power and respects it. He is a submissive, my submissive. He counts on that. He needs that. And he surrenders to that. But we both have control. My control is not absolute. That is where the illusion comes in.

[DJade]

This is true, but once I've made the choice to submit, my will becomes His. In other words, I 'align' my will to His will and in that moment my power becomes His to control. My control of the situation is ceded to Him - in effect I surrender.

If I believed that I held the 'upper hand' in submission, that I was the final say-so about what we do together, I wouldn't be submitting, imo. I'd be bottoming. That isn't who I am in my relationship with Him.

That being said - this level of trust and faith in a Dominant takes time to develop. It isn't something that can be commanded in an instant. My Owner and I have been together for a year and a half, and our mutual trust grows each day. Where we'll be in another year - who knows? I expect the depth of my surrender to Him will continue to grow, His power over me will continue to grow...and I'm enjoying every step along the way.

Well said

[DJade]

My line of thinking is a lot closer to Oz's. I wanted to offer the voice of dissent earlier, but couldn't get my thoughts clear enough, so I just let it go.

In my version of D/s, the submissive is not in control, and submission is not a "gift". If it were, then the sub would really be the top, and that just doesn't work for me.

As always, your mileage may vary.

It is easy to twist thoughts so far from the original post. It is control that is the original gift, not submission. The dominant then takes charge and when love continues to develop, maintains the control. Control can also be maintained using things other than love. Even dominants of integrity know how to manipulate things to the mutual advantage of themselves and their subs. It is the dom/mes who THINK they have total control to whom it is an illusion. Control is held by both parties, but the dominant is the one who maintains the lead and remains in charge, thus satisfying both their needs and the needs os their subs.

[DJade]

You have given me the reason to keep looking for the right Dom for me, because I had almost ran away again. I found someone that I believed in and we talked and I felt that maybe just maybe I had found someone that wouldn't just enjoy using that power and then walk away as I've come to hate and almost go into nun hood. I told him things that I've kept bottled up so long and we meet and at first I have the doubts in my head and tell him and those doubts are taken away. I trust him and allow me to come out. I felt so alive for the first time and as we said our goodbyes and he said he would contact me I believed him, well that didn't happen and again I start with the feeling as here I come nunhood or don't want nun and don't get nun and don't have nun. lol I still can't keep that from myself as I even taught my children not to give up and keep fighting for what you believe in and want in life. I am so giving and I feel like Its taken but there isn't any caring behind those that take from me. I would lay it at their feet freely as I've done so many and many times but when I can't feel that it makes me go on the run as a frightened child or rabbit. I've always known that I was submissive since I was a very young child 6 or 7 years old. Thats just me and I want to know that what I give is given back and not taken and then thrown to the ground like yesterdays trash. I've opened up and he trashed me.

For those doms/subs that are looking there is a lot that say they are dom or they are sub be careful and that is very important for the sub to know as well, I've come to find this out a few times and its very hard to find one that really is from the lifestyle and those that have read and know what one wants to hear and even though he wasn't one to make headline news like beat me up or worse there are those that would in a heart beat that could hurt or worse to you or me. Be careful please.

I do want to thank you for your thread it does make me add this as a learning tool and hope that someday I may be happy and loved and cared for.
thank you again.
beverly

You are very welcome. Don't give up. The right person is out there. Sometimes it takes a while to find them but do not give up hope!

[silverwind{MN}]

It is the dom/mes who THINK they have total control to whom it is an illusion. Control is held by both parties, but the dominant is the one who maintains the lead and remains in charge, thus satisfying both their needs and the needs os their subs.

well said, Mistress.. it takes both Control and surrendering that control, then building the trust and love.. that so that the relationship can grow to were it am today.

[DJade]

well said, Mistress.. it takes both Control and surrendering that control, then building the trust and love.. that so that the relationship can grow to were it is today.

Thank you, my pet. You are a prime example of my views. Many of us dominants want to think we have total control. I am even one of them. But while total control may be an illusion, partial control is not. The only real total control may be self control, but even that is hard to achieve! As long as we dominants at least TRY to understand this concept, we will be better off and more able to perpetuate a relationship in which false and abusive control is non existent.

[Pearlgem]

It is easy to twist thoughts so far from the original post. It is control that is the original gift, not submission. The dominant then takes charge and when love continues to develop, maintains the control. Control can also be maintained using things other than love. Even dominants of integrity know how to manipulate things to the mutual advantage of themselves and their subs. It is the dom/mes who THINK they have total control to whom it is an illusion. Control is held by both parties, but the dominant is the one who maintains the lead and remains in charge, thus satisfying both their needs and the needs of their subs.

I think you are so right, DJade. What a lovely, wise woman you are. I love above all feeling my Master controls me, but control per se doesn't always lead automatically to my submission. But it's only when I do cede control of myself to him that my submission can possibly flourish. It's like a constant and joyful dance between us, which my Master controls and I willingly follow, to be in accord, for me to be open to him, for him to receive the pleasure he desires. Some steps are tricky, but there are great sections of minuet we can perform together faultlessly. Other times we're shuffling along together trying to find each other's rhythm. But my Master is a sure lead, versatile and quick and I put my hand in his in sure expectation that he will lead me eventually through some wonderful moves.
If I keep control to myself I can't possibly submit. He can't force control from me, I have to allow it willingly. It's not a once and for all thing. For me, control is a constant, delicate shifting of intelligence and desire. My reward is my submission, it doesn't come first.
Thank you, DJade, for your lovely insights.

[Belgarold]

Djade,

I just found this thread and wanted to add my thanks for your wonderful thoughts. I believe what you say is true. Symbiosis or not, the gift given to me by my beautiful sub is huge. And that gift is a relinquishment (is that a word, lol) of her control, TRUSTing that I will not betray that trust.

That gift is huge and precious indeed. And the sub still remains in control for she can take it away as well.

I am not saying this as eloquently as you did Djade but just wanted to add my thanks.

[Kuskovian]

Very well said indeed!

[DJade]

I think you are so right, DJade. What a lovely, wise woman you are. I love above all feeling my Master controls me, but control per se doesn't always lead automatically to my submission. But it's only when I do cede control of myself to him that my submission can possibly flourish. It's like a constant and joyful dance between us, which my Master controls and I willingly follow, to be in accord, for me to be open to him, for him to receive the pleasure he desires. Some steps are tricky, but there are great sections of minuet we can perform together faultlessly. Other times we're shuffling along together trying to find each other's rhythm. But my Master is a sure lead, versatile and quick and I put my hand in his in sure expectation that he will lead me eventually through some wonderful moves.
If I keep control to myself I can't possibly submit. He can't force control from me, I have to allow it willingly. It's not a once and for all thing. For me, control is a constant, delicate shifting of intelligence and desire. My reward is my submission, it doesn't come first.
Thank you, DJade, for your lovely insights.

Beautifully said, Pearlgem. It is so true that a good D/s relationship is a (sometimes delicate, sometimes intense) dance in which control, faith, trust, need, devotion and love are among the main steps. Submissives need to feel their dominants have control. That is one of the things that gives them hope and fuels their desires. Thank you!

[DJade]

Djade,

I just found this thread and wanted to add my thanks for your wonderful thoughts. I believe what you say is true. Symbiosis or not, the gift given to me by my beautiful sub is huge. And that gift is a relinquishment (is that a word, lol) of her control, TRUSTing that I will not betray that trust.

That gift is huge and precious indeed. And the sub still remains in control for she can take it away as well.

I am not saying this as eloquently as you did Djade but just wanted to add my thanks.

My thanks to you Belgarold for your response to my post. That there are lifelong dominants like us out there who are partly responsible for the quality of lives of their subs is a wonderful thing indeed. To rule with integrity and love is no small accomplishment and remains in constant motion. And that we can keep our power and dark desires under the control of love is what makes it grand. We owe this to our subs, to repay them for the gifts they have given us. They look up to us with hope, faith and trust. Those of us who do not return that loyal gaze with the strength and fierce devotion it deserves are not worthy to own such precious treasures.

[DJade]

Very well said indeed!

My thanks!

[fallenstar]

duplicate-- sorry!!

[fallenstar]

“Control is an illusion. The only real control is self control.” That is the premise of one of the lessons I teach my subs. And yet, we dominants strive for control so much, we do not tend to see it for what it truly is- a gift. A gift from our subs to us. A gift that must be earned, and which, once in our hands, translates into a trust that must never be betrayed.
It all starts with integrity. BDSM is partly about mutual need. Dom/mes need to dominate, subs need to submit. We all yearn for one or the other. We all flounder helplessly about, seeking for that which we need, until such time as we happen to make a connection. Maybe it happens by design, maybe by chance. But one thing is certain. It is the sub who holds the control then and not the dom/me. Once an initial connection is established, each looks for compatibility in the other. A sub may be attracted to a specific gender of dom/me, or looks, or strength, or intrigue, but what every sub wants from their dom/me more than anything else- is integrity. Because a dom/me with integrity can be trusted to have their subs’ best interests at heart. To comport themselves in such a way as to not harm that which they seek to control. To lay down the all-important foundation of friendship, love and trust on which every relationship, regardless of type, must be built. If a BDSM relationship does not start with integrity, it is doomed to fail. For those crucial steps cannot be skipped. The foundation must be strong.
For many of us, BDSM is not a game. It is a way of life. And in so being, it is like many endeavors in that one must constantly seek to learn and grow. Dominants must lay aside their pride and egos and remain open to growth so they can become better at dominating. And subs must lay aside their pride and fears in order to empower their owners to use the gifts of control and trust that they have so faithfully placed in their hands. In this way a submissive can also learn and grow, ideally in conjunction with their dominant partner.
Once the dominant is in possession of the control, they must use it wisely, or it can be ripped away at a moment’s notice. If it IS used wisely, love develops, and it is this love that helps secure the control in the dominants hands. Not due to power or manipulation, but because it has been earned through mutual courtesy, trust and respect. It is this love that can render the submissive helpless. It is the false dominant who takes advantage of this love and uses it only for personal gain. But the real dominant shares this love and treasures it for the incredible gift that it is, never abuses it and always acts with honor and in the best interest of their submissive. The real dominant vows to hold that precious heart in their hands and keep it safe, even from themselves.
A submissives position is always one of danger. If their actual physical health is not at risk, their heart is. It is a brave thing indeed to hand over one’s control, trust and heart. Who is it then who is truly the boldest, the dom/me or the sub? Who is it then who has the real control? Control may be an illusion, but it is real. The question is, do those of us who hold it, deserve it?
Let us all continue to learn, grow and love.

I'm just in awe! Jade that's amazing.. what you wrote. I sat and read it and now I want to show it to my Dom. It.. emulates what's important... Its very good. Thank you for sharing your thoughts with us!

[troublemkr{jonjon}]

I think that is one of the most beautiful thread I've read... Thank you. Is it just me ? I feel like something heavy came off my shoulder.

[moco]

thought this was too good to stay buried

[~B!tch~]

Im with Moco this needs to be RE-bumped yet again.... Djade and many other Dom/mes Gave beautiful insight into the reasons that the True majority of us are in this life to begin with.

Thank you All for your thoughts..

[Ozme52]

Really?

Now there's a true majority to go with the true doms, true subs, and true slaves?

I'm happy to be part of the false minority. The people who are actually tolerant of alternate approaches and diversity.