New York Times Political Cartoon

[Thorne]

Thorne,

I know you are being honest about not seeing it, your posts have always been respectful disagreement and not inflammatory. And I know sometimes my posts can seem strident. I don't intend that.

I understand that, and my comment about "strident" voices was not aimed at anyone here at all.

Two points: The getting their face in the news, opportunistic posturing cuts both ways. Limbaugh, O'Reilly and the Fox crew, as well as the Editor of the Post, have downplayed this issue and inflated others to ridiculous status.

I agree with you completely, here. The strident conservatives are no less guilty of this than strident liberals. Both sides are pulling at the same rope in a never ending tug of war, and they all wind up with mud on their faces.

And second, there are those of us that DO see it and are disturbed by the implications. ANd my worry are the nutjobs out there. For example, the madman that shot up the Unitarian church to kill Liberal Leaders.

If we see it there is some nutjob out there that will see it, and my fear is him acting upon it. And I think if I say or do something that can be misconstrued, whether I mean it or not. I WILL feel obligated to apologize for that. I think a LOT of racism and violence is subconscious these days.

I understand your concerns, and the concerns of others here. I think one of my failings is that I don't always see the seamier sides of these issues. I always want to believe that most people tend to think clearly and logically, not letting themselves be swayed by inane rhetoric. Naive, as I've noted before.

Just my thought on the issue. I truly believe there are people out there waiting for something to justify their insanity to the point of acting on it. And Limbaugh, The Post and any of Murdoch's holdings, have straddled the line in inciting these dangerous folk.

That's what they do. How they make their livings. The really sad thing is that there are, apparently, so many who are willing to let these people do their thinking for them. I can never understand how someone could be proud to be called a "dittohead!"

[DuncanONeil]

That's what they do. How they make their livings. The really sad thing is that there are, apparently, so many who are willing to let these people do their thinking for them. I can never understand how someone could be proud to be called a "dittohead!"[/QUOTE]

If that is truely the case how is that more violent action comes from the left side of the spectrum than the right?

[Thorne]

If that is truely the case how is that more violent action comes from the left side of the spectrum than the right?

Who said anything about violent action? I was merely talking about those individuals who seem content to let so-called celebrities (many of whom have criminal records of one sort or another) determine what is right for them. That goes for political topics as well as fashion statements.

[DuncanONeil]

Ok Thorne! Did not come across that way.

[Belgarold]

That's what they do. How they make their livings. The really sad thing is that there are, apparently, so many who are willing to let these people do their thinking for them. I can never understand how someone could be proud to be called a "dittohead!"

If that is truely the case how is that more violent action comes from the left side of the spectrum than the right?[/QUOTE]

And where do you get the information that more violent action comes from the left than the right. Could you please justify your opinions with something like a fact or something.

You seem to wish to be inflammatory and making unjustifiable accusations. We are trying to have a civil discussion here.

[DuncanONeil]

If that is truely the case how is that more violent action comes from the left side of the spectrum than the right?

And where do you get the information that more violent action comes from the left than the right. Could you please justify your opinions with something like a fact or something.

You seem to wish to be inflammatory and making unjustifiable accusations. We are trying to have a civil discussion here.[/QUOTE]

First of all the quote attributed to me is not something I would ever say. I would never use the term "dittohead"

As for violent action from the left, that is a matter of observation.

Why should I bother further to provide you and supportive data when you refuse to do the very same thing. Also when data is provided you simply pretend it is either Whole Cloth or does not exist. Perhaps I should then accuse you of resorting to calling names.

It has become apparent that you are not worth my time nor effort. It appears that you have no inclination to consider anything that does not fit into your preconceived world view.

[Belgarold]

As for violent action from the left, that is a matter of observation.

Why should I bother further to provide you and supportive data when you refuse to do the very same thing. Also when data is provided you simply pretend it is either Whole Cloth or does not exist. Perhaps I should then accuse you of resorting to calling names.

It has become apparent that you are not worth my time nor effort. It appears that you have no inclination to consider anything that does not fit into your preconceived world view.

LOL. Yep, I didn't think you had any support for your position. And I HAVE supported my statements. I just did not support them with evidence that YOU like, so you son't seem to see it. Please stop trying to incite.

I get that you don;t agree with me, but unsubstantiated quotes and incitements do not change my opinion. THorne and the others in this thread are having a fairly civil debate. I am going to try to say this respectfully. You do not seem capable of doing so. Instead of providing support for what amount to opinions you turn around and want to "take your ball and go home." That is fine. But do NOT suppose that makes you right. You should read your last paragraph and apply it to yourself. You have a view that you cannot substantiate and I don't agree with you. BUt you take that as a personal affront.

I don't agree with Thorne on everything. But I respect him and will listen to him and we may not change each other's opinions but we will still, hopefully, respect each other.

AND the quote is NOT yours. It was from Thorne, and I disrespected him by attributing it to you, it was an editing error. I apologize to Thorne and you.

[DuncanONeil]

"LOL. Yep, I didn't think you had any support for your position."

Bull hockey. I gave you facts and figures and you just said they were fake. Didn't show they were fake, just said they were. Anytime I gave you anything you did not like you just pretended it did not exist. You claim you support your position but all you have is sound bites. The inability to engage in a reasoned debate is why you have been cut off not the inability on one of us to engage!

[Belgarold]

"LOL. Yep, I didn't think you had any support for your position."

Bull hockey. I gave you facts and figures and you just said they were fake. Didn't show they were fake, just said they were. Anytime I gave you anything you did not like you just pretended it did not exist. You claim you support your position but all you have is sound bites. The inability to engage in a reasoned debate is why you have been cut off not the inability on one of us to engage!

Okay a few things:

When have I been 'cut off'?

Please show me your posts that showed facts and figures, if I missed them I would like to see them and I will apologize.

And where have I ignored these facts. Again, if I have done as you said, I will apologize.

Now I will admit Dr. BuzzCzar was VERY complete in his citations and I have, admittedly been lazier and just noted a few incidents, but they are NOT just 'sound bites.' And I truthfully cannot see any facts, any citations to support your views. I would love to see them, if you have.

Now I am going to try not to get into a baseless argument with you (I think I am already too deep into that area now) but I AM having a reasoned argument with others.

Please explain your accusations.

[Dr_BuzzCzar]

As for violent action from the left, that is a matter of observation.

Why should I bother further to provide you and supportive data when you refuse to do the very same thing.

Just for fun let's take the U.S. over the last 50 years.

Here's a few that I recall.

Right-Wing Extremist Violence:
Murder of Emmit Till
Attack on peaceful lunch counter sit-ins in NC, GA, MS.
Murder of Medgar Evers
Fire bombing of black churches in MS, AL, GA by KKK
Attacks on "Freedom Riders" (volunteers registering blacks to vote in the south.
Birmingham, Ala., Commissioner of Public Safety Eugene "Bull" Connor uses fire hoses and police dogs on peaceful black demonstrators.
Murder of Four young girls (Denise McNair, Cynthia Wesley, Carole Robertson, and Addie Mae Collins) attending Sunday school.
James E. Chaney, 21; Andrew Goodman, 21; and Michael Schwerner, 24, had been working to register black voters in Mississippi and were murdered.
Selma, AL - Fifty non-violent marchers are hospitalized after police use tear gas, whips, and clubs against them.
Martin Luther King is murdered.

In the U.S., violence directed toward abortion providers has killed at least 7 people, including 3 doctors, 2 clinic employees, a security guard, and a clinic escort.

According to statistics gathered by the National Abortion Federation (NAF), an organization of abortion providers, since 1977 there have been 17 attempted murders, 383 death threats, 153 incidents of assault or battery, and 3 kidnappings committed against abortion providers.

Bombing of Murrah Federal building claimed 168 lives and left over 800 people injured.

Cites:
http://www.factmonster.com/spot/civi...timeline1.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-abortion_violence
http://www2.indystar.com/library/fac...ombing/ok.html

[DuncanONeil]

Ok then you want to accept radical personages that have attacked either specific individuals or entities and ascribe all of that to the entire conservative spectrum?
There are over the top radicals in every grouping. Timothy McVeigh does not speak for me as I presume Greenpeace trying to sink a ship at sea does not speak for you. This I hold true in all cases; Hamas, hezbollah, and al Queada do not speak for the Arab that owns a business here in my town.
That being said many actions taken by the "radical" right, "radical" left, "radical" environmentalist, and "radical" Islamists are wrong actions.

[Dr_BuzzCzar]

Ok then you want to accept radical personages that have attacked either specific individuals or entities and ascribe all of that to the entire conservative spectrum?
There are over the top radicals in every grouping. Timothy McVeigh does not speak for me as I presume Greenpeace trying to sink a ship at sea does not speak for you. This I hold true in all cases; Hamas, hezbollah, and al Queada do not speak for the Arab that owns a business here in my town.
That being said many actions taken by the "radical" right, "radical" left, "radical" environmentalist, and "radical" Islamists are wrong actions.

Your original point was that there was more violence from the left side of the political spectrum than from the right. You asked for specifics and proof. I gave you some actions that can be charged to right wing extremists. Since you seemed sure of your point I was expecting a similar list of violence perpetuated by left-wing extremists. To me any violent action by either side would be wrong and has no place in political efforts. I was simply giving you what you asked for as I don't agree with your premise regarding violent acts. In my admittedly less than humble opinion you're wrong and I think the facts back me up.